Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Marco Palmieri]

^I want my lines delivered by Gilbert Gottfried.

 

[Hardin]

As has been stated numerous times Janeway's death wasn't PAD's decision, Editor Margaret Clark asked him to kill her off.

Yes, but I'm guessing he enjoyed it and quite a lot. At least, I hope he did.

Anyway, I can't help it if I think that for the sake of the Voyager series killing auntie Katie was a Very Bad Idea™. I'm totally open to change my mind, I actually want to.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Janeway dies (in a non VOY book, but let's not go there) and the next VOY book merely takes note of it? Is that even possible?

That's actually the exact opposite of what I was suggesting.

Maybe you'll get to see her die all over again. Painfully.

Mwahahahaha!

 

[Hardin]

That's actually the exact opposite of what I was suggesting.

Maybe you'll get to see her die all over again. Painfully.

Mwahahahaha!

LOL! I mean, shame!

BTW, sorry for misreading.

 

[ClayinCA]

Actually, we have been here before: Kirk died (twice) in "Generations". That said, I'm not aware of any concerted effort to show how his (by now, former) crew reacted to his loss, although we did get a few SNW short stories out of it, as I recall.

Vulcan's Forge by Josepha Sherman & Susan Shwartz, Engines of Destiny by Gene DeWeese, and the sixth and final part of Mere Anarchy by Margaret Wander Bonanno all dealt with the aftermath of Kirk's apparent death in the Generations prelude (in the case of the DeWeese book, it was just Scotty's reaction).

IIRC, the Generations novelization also spent a small amount of time with reactions to Kirk's death" on the E-B, but it was all in the immediate aftermath, rather than any dwelling on it much later after life had "moved on."

Well, fine, then since it's been done before, maybe I won't buy Full Circle!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Still, at least Christopher gets my point. What I mean is that we've not had the opportunity, in an ongoing Trek series, to examine the reactions of a crew to their captain's death, and to see what happens when that void has to be filled. True, we've seen glimpses in the books you guys have mentioned, but this would be a more in-depth opportunity to explore this kind of thing at length. And I'm not being a ghoul in wanting to drag the Voyager characters through exhaustive trauma for book after book after book, either; it's just that as someone who's still dealing (largely unsuccessfully) with my own grief, stories about this just interest me, and I think it's the sort of thing that Star Trek could do well.

That is good to hear. I look forward to your thoughts about both.

Best,
Kirsten

Thank you! I'll be here, I'm sure....

Maybe you'll get to see her die all over again. Painfully.

Mwahahahaha!

Okay, I changed my mind. I'll buy two copies of Full Circle.

 

[Trent Roman]

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Still, at least Christopher gets my point. What I mean is that we've not had the opportunity, in an ongoing Trek series, to examine the reactions of a crew to their captain's death, and to see what happens when that void has to be filled.

Sure we've had the opportunity; we just chose not to pursue it, outside of the material Keith and Dayton mentioned.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Woman

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Not really TOS, as there isn't and never has been any "ongoing series" for it in the same sense as what currently exists for TNG, DS9, VGR, and ENT.

 

[Christopher]

What I mean is that we've not had the opportunity, in an ongoing Trek series, to examine the reactions of a crew to their captain's death, and to see what happens when that void has to be filled. True, we've seen glimpses in the books you guys have mentioned, but this would be a more in-depth opportunity to explore this kind of thing at length. And I'm not being a ghoul in wanting to drag the Voyager characters through exhaustive trauma for book after book after book, either; it's just that as someone who's still dealing (largely unsuccessfully) with my own grief, stories about this just interest me, and I think it's the sort of thing that Star Trek could do well.

Right. And it's not just about grief. It's about moving on with life afterward. It's about the ongoing process of how an ensemble cast adjusts to the loss of its original lead, how the nature of the series evolves as a result of the cast change. This is something we got to see with Babylon 5, Blake's 7, and Stargate. Not to mention Sliders, which went through multiple major cast changes, including the loss of its lead character at the start of the final season.

Although to some degree, we have seen that process once in Trek lit -- in the DS9 Relaunch, where Kira has replaced Sisko as the lead character and Vaughn has moved in as second-in-command. True, Sisko eventually returned, but his role is different and more peripheral than before, at least in terms of the formal chain of command.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Well, it wasn't a captain or the "cast lead," but don't forget SCE. That series spent a good deal of time with the survivors of Wildfire as they dealt with several losses, including that of a "regular" character, as well as adjusting to the inclusion of new characters.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

Although to some degree, we have seen that process once in Trek lit -- in the DS9 Relaunch, where Kira has replaced Sisko as the lead character and Vaughn has moved in as second-in-command. True, Sisko eventually returned, but his role is different and more peripheral than before, at least in terms of the formal chain of command.

I was wondering if someone would get around to bringing that up.

Sisko was considered lost for eight novels and one novella of post-TV DS9 fiction, all of which were underscored, to varying degrees, by the impact of his absence. The characters moved on, some less successfully than others, and their individual and collective struggles to cope with that fundamental change in their lives became one of the engines that drove those stories. But even his return in Unity in no way altered the new status quo.

None of which should in any way undermine the opportunity to explore these themes of loss, change, and continuance through the Voyager characters, in their own unique way.

Assuming that's what's going to happen.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Janeway's death may well affect Voyager's Delta crew since they were her family for seven years. The Alpha crew probably won't care all that much and that brings in even more tension.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Well, it wasn't a captain or the "cast lead," but don't forget SCE. That series spent a good deal of time with the survivors of Wildfire as they dealt with several losses, including that of a "regular" character, as well as adjusting to the inclusion of new characters.

Not to mention the "EXcalibur" trilogy, in which - for two books - PAD tried to convince us that Calhoun was really dead. I'm sure a lot of readers assumed he'd actually done it, since all the publicity for "New Frontier" - even years earlier = discussed how main characters could die in NF without Paramount being overly concerned.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

Anyway, doesn't it feel like Peter David had his fun and left the other writers to collect the debris?

^ Uh, oh....now you've done it.

[Don LaFontaine]

In a world...where Peter David had his fun....

Christopher: "Oh my GOD! Have you seen this??? What am I supposed to do with this?"

Kirsten: "You? Does your book have a frikkin' Voyager logo on it, 'yatch?"

...others are left to collect the debris....

Kirsten: "The fandroids are gonna burn me at the stake, Marco. What the hell am I supposed to do?"

Marco: "Run. Run very fast...or, at least faster than Bennett or Keith."

...where peace and harmony once thrived, only chaos now reigns supreme....

Kirsten: "Dave, I need some help. What should I do to smooth out this plot mess Peter left us?"

Mack: "Do what I do: Kill more people, and blow up more shit."

....Next spring, a new chapter in the Star Trek saga begins...

Kirsten: "Who is that guy with the creepy voice, anyway?"

Keith: "I think it's Ward. You know how he loves those cigars."

[/Don LaFontaine]

Dayton, could you come over and clean up the soda that just flew out of my mouth and all over my computer?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Dayton, could you come over and clean up the soda that just flew out of my mouth and all over my computer?

These stuck-together pages of "Full Circle" are brought to you by Dayton Ward. It was not intended that the reprise of Janeway's death be hidden in a sealed section, but dem's da breaks.

 

[David Mack]

These stuck-together pages of "Full Circle" are brought to you by Dayton Ward.

Usually when pages get stuck together courtesy of Dayton, the best course of action is just to burn the book/magazine/document and get a new one.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Couldn't be me. Sticky pages are the sure sign of an amateur.

 

[BryanSorensen]

Couldn't be me. Sticky pages are the sure sign of an amateur.

These stuck-together pages of "Full Circle" are brought to you by Dayton Ward.

Usually when pages get stuck together courtesy of Dayton, the best course of action is just to burn the book/magazine/document and get a new one.

i actually almost spit my water out of my mouth with those last two comments. I now totally think that we have nothing to fear from other posters in here; we actually have to fear what the authors will say! Now i know i cant possibly top that with anything constructive or otherwise i have to say!

 

[kimc]

The reality is, we’ve been down this road before, more than once. Segments of fandom were flinging ultimata of one sort or another regarding what was understood, or misunderstood, about the novels that would follow the TV finale of Deep Space Nine, and again with Voyager, and again with Enterprise, and again with Nemesis and the death of Data. I've received emails from self-described "true" Star Trek fans, descrying J.J. Abrams's upcoming movie, with demands that I assure them that Pocket won't be doing fiction based on it..."or else."

We aren't dismissive of those detractors, but nor do we have any illusions about pleasing everyone. Creative choices come with risks. We accept them. That’s the nature of storytelling.

I can’t prevent people from taking those creative choices personally, but it needs to be understood that those choices aren't made to “discount or insult” anybody.

Personally I'm amazed that no one is interested in taking on the creative challenges of writing for the only female captain in Trek. I know when Voyager came out there were a lot of detractors but then Janeway was before her time. I'd like to think that since shows like the new BSG came out that Trek fans would be more receptive to Janeway.

I won't be buying the books. Years from now after either the Trek fanbase grows to appreciate Janeway and Pocket (or whoever is writing the books at the time) decides to launch a new series where Janeway is not dead then I'll take another look.

 

[ClayinCA]

The reality is, we’ve been down this road before, more than once. Segments of fandom were flinging ultimata of one sort or another regarding what was understood, or misunderstood, about the novels that would follow the TV finale of Deep Space Nine, and again with Voyager, and again with Enterprise, and again with Nemesis and the death of Data. I've received emails from self-described "true" Star Trek fans, descrying J.J. Abrams's upcoming movie, with demands that I assure them that Pocket won't be doing fiction based on it..."or else."

We aren't dismissive of those detractors, but nor do we have any illusions about pleasing everyone. Creative choices come with risks. We accept them. That’s the nature of storytelling.

I can’t prevent people from taking those creative choices personally, but it needs to be understood that those choices aren't made to “discount or insult” anybody.

Personally I'm amazed that no one is interested in taking on the creative challenges of writing for the only female captain in Trek. I know when Voyager came out there were a lot of detractors but then Janeway was before her time. I'd like to think that since shows like the new BSG came out that Trek fans would be more receptive to Janeway.

I won't be buying the books. Years from now after either the Trek fanbase grows to appreciate Janeway and Pocket (or whoever is writing the books at the time) decides to launch a new series where Janeway is not dead then I'll take another look.

Yeah, but she's not the only female captain in Trek. As has been pointed out, Kira Nerys is now the commander of Deep Space Nine, and in the Destiny books, Dax is a captain as well.

Is it just me, or is there an air of "I'm taking my toys and going home!" with a lot of these "You-killed-Janeway-so-I'm-not-going-to-buy-the-books" complaints? I'm not singling out anybody in particular, but it does seem to come across that way in general...

 

[kimc]

The reality is, we’ve been down this road before, more than once. Segments of fandom were flinging ultimata of one sort or another regarding what was understood, or misunderstood, about the novels that would follow the TV finale of Deep Space Nine, and again with Voyager, and again with Enterprise, and again with Nemesis and the death of Data. I've received emails from self-described "true" Star Trek fans, descrying J.J. Abrams's upcoming movie, with demands that I assure them that Pocket won't be doing fiction based on it..."or else."

We aren't dismissive of those detractors, but nor do we have any illusions about pleasing everyone. Creative choices come with risks. We accept them. That’s the nature of storytelling.

I can’t prevent people from taking those creative choices personally, but it needs to be understood that those choices aren't made to “discount or insult” anybody.

Personally I'm amazed that no one is interested in taking on the creative challenges of writing for the only female captain in Trek. I know when Voyager came out there were a lot of detractors but then Janeway was before her time. I'd like to think that since shows like the new BSG came out that Trek fans would be more receptive to Janeway.

I won't be buying the books. Years from now after either the Trek fanbase grows to appreciate Janeway and Pocket (or whoever is writing the books at the time) decides to launch a new series where Janeway is not dead then I'll take another look.

Yeah, but she's not the only female captain in Trek. As has been pointed out, Kira Nerys is now the commander of Deep Space Nine, and in the Destiny books, Dax is a captain as well.

Is it just me, or is there an air of "I'm taking my toys and going home!" with a lot of these "You-killed-Janeway-so-I'm-not-going-to-buy-the-books" complaints? I'm not singling out anybody in particular, but it does seem to come across that way in general...

She is as far as the televised series go. Also, I wasn't buying the books before Janeway was killed (with the exception of Distant Shores for the "Isabo's Shirt" story) because I thought the fanfiction writers had a better handle on her character.

I suffer no illusion that Pocket knows or cares that I don't read the books. I enjoy re-watching the show, I have my favorite fanfiction sites plus many other interests.

However, as a mod on the Voyager forum I'm saddened to see that TrekBBS is not perceived as friendly toward Voyager fans in general and Janeway fans in particular. That is something I would like to see change somehow but in the meantime I would not point to TrekBBS as a place to get an accurate feed on Voyager/Janeway perceptions.

Also, I find it extremely perplexing that Pocket doesn't want to take advantage of the interest in Janeway. Just going by a google search:

<captain's full name> + "trek" (# of hits):
Janeway: 514,000
Kirk: 204,000
Archer: 97,500
Sisko: 95,500
Picard: 8,130

Also, if you check out fanfiction.net and the # of stories posted for each series there:

Voyager (5,261)
Enterprise (3,169)
TOS (1,766)
TNG (1,640)
Other (859)
DS9 (762)

You would think Pocket would want to tap into some of this but apparently they're not interested...