Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[William Leisner]

I want somebody to write a book where space goats take over the Enterprise! I want it I want it I want it I want it!!! I want it because because I like goats and so do all my friends and so I want it, and if I don't get it, I'm going to stop buying your books and hold my breath and stomp my feet and hate you forever!!!

Oh, and don't talk down to me like I'm three years old.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ If you'd read the outline for our next Trek book, it would've saved you a perfectly good rant.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

As I said before and I will say again for myself and the two to three hundred Voyager fans I represent (and I do represent a large and active Voyager message board and fandom). If Kathryn Janeway is dead at the end of Kristen Beyer's book there will be no other purchases.

Kristen I will tell you, we were looking forward to your series. We bought "Distant Shores" primarily for your short story in that book, but we want Janeway back and we will tell everyone. Don't discount us or insult us, we are grown women. I am 61 years old, I read Trek, but I also read Linnea Sinclair and Susan Grant. I truly believe that if you don't to give us what we want to read, we will find it elsewhere or write it ourselves.

You want us to rethink our perceptions, but it's really time for you to rethink yours. When have any of you looked at what really sells these days. Now I am not telling you to write that because you have to write true to yourselves, but don't use shock value which is very short lived, to kill off a very real opportunity that could be taken with a living Janeway.

The great appeal about Trek, is that it has always been about inclusion. You have excluded a lot of fans; we get called unkind names here. We are told "our" captain is unworthy of a life, that our captain has value only in death and the effect that death has on others. We don't like it and we have every right to dislike it, and every right to protest it.

Christopher, I read, I read a lot. I come from a reading family, my house has hundreds of books, don’t assume that because I don’t like the direction of the Trek Books that I don’t get it, or that I am somehow illiterate.

You don’t have to agree with us, but don’t talk down to us either.

Brit

Some added perspective and some clarification, which I hope will not be construed as talking down to anyone.

I'm the editor of post-TV Voyager fiction, beginning with Full Circle. So if anyone finds fault in the perceived creative direction of those as-yet-unpublished novels, it should be directed at me, not at the authors. (And contrary to the post quoted above, Kirsten isn’t writing a series; she’s simply the first author in what will hopefully be a rich and varied string of contributors to the Voyager saga going forward.)

The reality is, we’ve been down this road before, more than once. Segments of fandom were flinging ultimata of one sort or another regarding what was understood, or misunderstood, about the novels that would follow the TV finale of Deep Space Nine, and again with Voyager, and again with Enterprise, and again with Nemesis and the death of Data. I've received emails from self-described "true" Star Trek fans, descrying J.J. Abrams's upcoming movie, with demands that I assure them that Pocket won't be doing fiction based on it..."or else."

We aren't dismissive of those detractors, but nor do we have any illusions about pleasing everyone. Creative choices come with risks. We accept them. That’s the nature of storytelling.

I can’t prevent people from taking those creative choices personally, but it needs to be understood that those choices aren't made to “discount or insult” anybody.

 

[LightningStorm]

If Kathryn Janeway is dead at the end of Kristen Beyer's book there will be no other purchases.

I recall some fans saying they'd black ban ST II if Spock was dead at the end of the movie, and they even calculated Paramount's projected loses on future box office sales, video releases, toys, novelizations, etc., and took out a fullpage ad in "Variety", and scored a big article in the "Wall Street Journal".

Sure, they got Spock back at the end of ST III, but ST II was a still huge hit - despite their black bans - and made more money than ST III, IIRC.

I disagree with the way you've compare these. It would seem that Brit is saying they will buy and read Full Circle. Thereby that book's sales would be higher. It is the next book that would be lower sold if Janeway wasn't brought back by the end of Full Circle. Therefore the more apt comparison to the STII & III event would be that STII was watched by all and then the boycot would have taken place AFTER it so STIII would have been the lower grossing movie. And from what you say, it was. Also, (just playing devils adovcate here) it would appear that Paramount at the time did somehow bow to the fans in bringing back Spock -- and did so rather quickly.

Note: I'm not saying that these miniature boycots by disgruntled fans are at all effective, nor am I saying that that is what caused STIII's lower sales. I am merely pointing out the flaw in logic of comparing them as was done. A similar argument was made regarding the VOY-R. Authors came around saying "Well, the books did well, they went into multiple reprints" while the fans who didn't like it said "Sure, the first ones sold well, I'd be curious to see how the next ones do, since I know many who won't be buying them. Leading one to believe that, of course Spirit Walk did well, because at the time "we didn't know it would suck", now that we know we won't by the upcoming ones.

 

[JD]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was Leonard Nimoy's descion to come back for Search For Spock, not Paramount.

I'm not meaning to be rude here, but I just don't understand why there are so many people refusing to read all Star Trek books just because Janeway died. I can understand being upset, but to refuse to read all Trek books just because one character in one of the 10 different series died seems like a bit of everkill to me. I understand that women liked her because she was a strong women in a leading role, but we've had plenty of those in the shows and books, like Kira and Vale, just to name a couple. Now, I'm not trying to say anything about the people who are saying this, I'm just saying that I, personally, don't understand. Maybe I've just never been attatched enough to a character to feel this way.

 

[ronny]

Note: I'm not saying that these miniature boycots by disgruntled fans are at all effective, nor am I saying that that is what caused STIII's lower sales.

imho, upset fans boycotting the movie might have had a trivial affect on ticket sales but i think the real reason STIII made less cash than STII was because STIII wasn't that good a movie, especially when compared to STII.

 

[LightningStorm]

I'm not meaning to be rude here, but I just don't understand why there are so many people refusing to read all Star Trek books just because Janeway died. I can understand being upset, but to refuse to read all Trek books just because one character in one of the 10 different series died seems like a bit of everkill to me. I understand that women liked her because she was a strong women in a leading role, but we've had plenty of those in the shows and books, like Kira and Vale, just to name a couple. Now, I'm not trying to say anything about the people who are saying this, I'm just saying that I, personally, don't understand. Maybe I've just never been attatched enough to a character to feel this way.

I understand it. And the purpose of most boycotts are to be overkill in an extreme enough manner as to get results. I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone felt so strongly about something that they not only boycotted Trek books, but also boycotted the entirety of Simon and Schuster's published works.

 

[Deano2099]

As I said before and I will say again for myself and the two to three hundred Voyager fans I represent (and I do represent a large and active Voyager message board and fandom).

I'm sure you run a great board, the majority of which are fans of Janeway, but while I'm not suggesting spamming us, it's interesting that only a few of those people post here, where the authors and editors actually read what you have to say.

While I'm sure that yourself and others will not read the books if Janeway remains dead, I imagine that of your 300 members, at least half wouldn't read the books anyway, half of those that do will be upset if Janeway dies but continue to read the books regardless as they enjoy the other characters too, and of the ones that say they'll never touch another book after she dies around half of them will probably end up picking up the next book in the series if they enjoy Kristen's writing.

You claim to be speaking for hundreds of people but there's little to no evidence for that. I'm sure I could get 300 people to join a "We prefer Janeway dead" Facebook group but it would be equally meaningless.

Again, if all you want to read are stories about Janeway and nothing else then yeah, it seems you're out of luck, you have my sympathies and I'm sure you're not the only one. But as for the claim that it'll massively effect sales because you represent so many people, I don't buy it.
As for what sells, I'm not sure Janeway was even the most popular character in her own series. And Pocket are in the business of making money, and signed off on proceeding on with the Voyager books with a dead Janeway, and have far more to go on in terms of sales figures, demographics and all that sort of research than you or I will ever have.

 

[Deano2099]

I understand it. And the purpose of most boycotts are to be overkill in an extreme enough manner as to get results. I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone felt so strongly about something that they not only boycotted Trek books, but also boycotted the entirety of Simon and Schuster's published works.

Unless they're going to write to Pocket or whoever and point out that this is what they're doing, it's not going to help them though. If the next Voyager book sells say 1000 copies less than expected while the others remain strong they make a point. If every Trek book sells 1000 less than expected then it's because of the economic down-turn or something else.

 

[LightningStorm]

Unless they're going to write to Pocket or whoever and point out that this is what they're doing, it's not going to help them though. If the next Voyager book sells say 1000 copies less than expected while the others remain strong they make a point. If every Trek book sells 1000 less than expected then it's because of the economic down-turn or something else.

Of course.

I'm not saying what some are doing is going to work as expected or be interpreted as expected. Just that I understand the reasoning behind boycotting something larger for something smaller.

Indeed in order to get something like this to work they'd need a large group such as to actually affect S&S's income (something I doubt they even come close to having anyway) and they'd likely need to actually boycott the entire company instead of just a line within it. Because boycotting Trek specifically while still purchasing other books by the company will just cause Trek books to stop being published. S&S doesn't care specifically if their money comes from Trek or other stuff so long as it is coming in. If S&S was losing money in general due to a decision, they'd be more likely to change that decision because they do care about their company's existence, not so much about a failed line with it, because they'd just stop making that line and make one that does sell.

 

[CommanderTroi]

it feels like as if Gandalf would have stayed lost after The Fellowship of the Ring (which would have absolutely sucked), at least to me.

But essentially, Gandalf the Grey did die, and was reborn as Gandalf the White.

What about if Kathryn Janeway stays dead, but continues to have an existence in Q Space, and is perhaps able to communicate with the outside world, and to influence events? Dead in ST/SF doesn't necessarily mean eliminated from having a role.

And that's all I hope for, Janeway just not dead, if you like Kathy the White Q

 

[AuntKate]

As for what sells, I'm not sure Janeway was even the most popular character in her own series. And Pocket are in the business of making money, and signed off on proceeding on with the Voyager books with a dead Janeway, and have far more to go on in terms of sales figures, demographics and all that sort of research than you or I will ever have.

Every "favorite character" fan poll I've seen on general Voyager sites (those that are not focused on a particular character) has had Janeway #1 by a long shot, and that includes a half dozen polls over the years on the TrekBBS Voyager forum. She is by far and away the most popular character on the show.

 

[Deano2099]

As for what sells, I'm not sure Janeway was even the most popular character in her own series. And Pocket are in the business of making money, and signed off on proceeding on with the Voyager books with a dead Janeway, and have far more to go on in terms of sales figures, demographics and all that sort of research than you or I will ever have.

Every "favorite character" fan poll I've seen on general Voyager sites (those that are not focused on a particular character) has had Janeway #1 by a long shot, and that includes a half dozen polls over the years on the TrekBBS Voyager forum. She is by far and away the most popular character on the show.

Fair enough - I was just going on the general impression I had and am happy to concede I'm wrong there.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I think this whole argument is pathetic and here are two reasons why. One, Janeway is dead, at least as far as Starfleet are aware of; and two, I very much doubt that Marco's editorial position will change on that unless it suits a story. We knew Sisko was with the Prophets, and it was TEN books before we saw him again, and even now he's kind of taking a background role in the relaunch. I was a staunch anti-Voyager-relaunch fan, but I decided to give the books another chance and I enjoyed them for the most part, though I found some sections to be completely implausible and pathetic.

I'm not completely sold on whether Full Circle and any other Voyager relaunch books will be any better, but I'll buy the books because I'm giving them a chance. I have a thing for redheads, and liked Janeway in more ways than one, but in the relaunch she was extraneous and just giving her a meagre plot to keep her in would have been far more demeaning imo. I will reserve judgement until I have read Full Circle, and see where I go from there. The fact that Janeway is dead will not really have a bearing on my choices, the stories told will.

 

[Leaf]

Every "favorite character" fan poll I've seen on general Voyager sites (those that are not focused on a particular character) has had Janeway #1 by a long shot, and that includes a half dozen polls over the years on the TrekBBS Voyager forum. She is by far and away the most popular character on the show.

So, for good or ill, Janeway was THE face of the franchise's chronic underperformer. No wonder she had to go.

Maybe they're hoping a crop of new characters and/or a new direction will give Voyager a shot in the arm and transmorgrify it into something more profitable, like the relaunch did for DS9.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

^ They'll need to off Astall first.

 

[LightningStorm]

... of the franchise's chronic underperformer.

And you base that on what exactly? Of the 5 series, it was one of 3 that did not get canceled prematurely.

 

[Trent Roman]

I'm sure you run a great board, the majority of which are fans of Janeway, but while I'm not suggesting spamming us, it's interesting that only a few of those people post here, where the authors and editors actually read what you have to say. (...) As for what sells, I'm not sure Janeway was even the most popular character in her own series. And Pocket are in the business of making money, and signed off on proceeding on with the Voyager books with a dead Janeway, and have far more to go on in terms of sales figures, demographics and all that sort of research than you or I will ever have.

One thing I have been surprised to note is, indeed, how little furore there has been over this decision. It's possible that lack of reaction was because it happened in a TNG book, and we'll get more of an uproar when Voyager fans pick up their next novel to find that their captain has been knocked off, but for the time being it's very much the tempest in the teapot. Heck, it seems like I'm one of the handful of people here consistently arguing against the decision, and she wasn't even my favourite character from that show (and I probably wouldn't have been as pissed as I am had it not been for the abominable execution). Janeway fans, if they're out there, don't particularly seem to care enough to make their voices heard in any significant numbers. For every person who has decried the death, there were as many chuckling about it when the book first came out, if not outright celebrating. I wondered, in another thread, why we have practically all the TOS characters still running around having adventures in the timeframe of the 24th century shows, or why the editors collapsed six years of story to revive Tucker as soon as possible, while Janeway gets cut off short. Guess killing off controversial characters of dubious popularity is pretty safe after all, at least compared to more beloved characters.

^ They'll need to off Astall first.

Yes. In fact, let's pull a Xavier, and have the Janeway who was killed off in Before Dishonor be Astall in disguise. That'll satisfy both the 'bring back Janeway' camp and the 'Astall must die a horrible, horrible death' camp.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[captcalhoun]

If Kathryn Janeway is dead at the end of Kristen Beyer's book there will be no other purchases.

then here's a quote from Doctor Who for you:

BYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEE!!!!

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

^ They'll need to off Astall first.

Maybe not "off" but get rid of her somehow and quickly, please!

I can`t remember to ever have met another Star Trek character I found more annoying!