Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Dayton Ward]

Kill 'em all. Let Q sort 'em out.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I want somebody to write a book where space goats take over the Enterprise!

Space goats or scapegoats?

 

[Therin of Andor]

It would seem that Brit is saying they will buy and read Full Circle.

But before Brit's post, we did have resolute Janeway fans saying they would seek advice from others, wait for reviews - or even peek at the end chapters - before buying the book, and that if Janeway was still dead, they'd refuse to buy and read it.

So I guess I've done it again. I was answering Brit, yes, but attempting to broaden the discussion a little to cover similar, but varied opinions.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

As I said before and I will say again for myself and the two to three hundred Voyager fans I represent (and I do represent a large and active Voyager message board and fandom). If Kathryn Janeway is dead at the end of Kristen Beyer's book there will be no other purchases.

Kristen I will tell you, we were looking forward to your series. We bought "Distant Shores" primarily for your short story in that book, but we want Janeway back and we will tell everyone. Don't discount us or insult us, we are grown women. I am 61 years old, I read Trek, but I also read Linnea Sinclair and Susan Grant. I truly believe that if you don't to give us what we want to read, we will find it elsewhere or write it ourselves.

You want us to rethink our perceptions, but it's really time for you to rethink yours. When have any of you looked at what really sells these days. Now I am not telling you to write that because you have to write true to yourselves, but don't use shock value which is very short lived, to kill off a very real opportunity that could be taken with a living Janeway.

The great appeal about Trek, is that it has always been about inclusion. You have excluded a lot of fans; we get called unkind names here. We are told "our" captain is unworthy of a life, that our captain has value only in death and the effect that death has on others. We don't like it and we have every right to dislike it, and every right to protest it.

Christopher, I read, I read a lot. I come from a reading family, my house has hundreds of books, don’t assume that because I don’t like the direction of the Trek Books that I don’t get it, or that I am somehow illiterate.

You don’t have to agree with us, but don’t talk down to us either.

Brit

Hi Brit,

I'm Kirsten.

I'm glad to know that "Isabo's Shirt" inspired you to purchase Distant Shores. It was a hard story to write and I believed at the time that fans who disliked the notion of a deeper relationship between Janeway and Chakotay than what had ever been explicitly demonstrated on the show (but which had surely been hinted at) would find the story tiresome. I did hope, however, that regardless of their preconceptions, they would find something to enjoy in the story's execution, if not subject matter.

By the same token, I also hope that fans who feel as strongly as you and others do about Janeway's death will find much to enjoy about Full Circle, even if they believe that this direction is ultimately less satisfying than they might like or would have chosen were this their job.

I, too, am a grown woman. I do not nor would ever disregard anyone or their opinions based on their gender, age, race, orientation, or personal values and I do take offense to any implication that a creative choice I have made either alone or in concert with my editor is somehow demonstratative of any such bias or any intention to alienate anyone who loves Voyager as much as I do.

At this point however, there can be no further constructive discussion of this topic until the novel is released and you've actually had a chance to read it. Once that's done, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have or discuss anything you wish. In fact, I look forward to it.

Best regards,
Kirsten Beyer

 

[casey]

I am torn as to how a I feel about Janeway's untimely demise. I am a recent convert to Voyager, and never really thought much of her. When Voyager was in first run, I was annoyed by her, and had name for her that is best censored. And never really watched the show, finding it boring.
Now that I am liking Voyager a lot, I never felt Janeway was a favorite character. But when she died. Wow. I was shocked and distressed. I am looking forward to Full Circle (which will be my first Voyager book) in the same way I was looking forward to Death in Winter--nervous and scared, thinking "how dare she!" I have realized how much I had grown to like the character, flaws and all, and now see that she is really the character that--love her or hate her--made Voyager work. And since I have so recently discovered Janeway I hate to discover her only to have her die off!

So, i will read Full Circle hoping she comes out alive, all the while assuming, based on what Kirsten as said, that she won't be returning.

Kirsten, I don't like the choice that was made, but I do understand the reasoning for it that you give.

So, I will trust in your writing ability to convince me that Voyager can survive without Janeway, and HOPE that Full Circle will the the first of many Voyager books I read. But, for every Voyager book I read, I will continue to believe that she is with the Q and will someday return Yes, I am in an almost religious denial of death!

I hope this post was coherent. I took an ambien that is now kicking in. So there may be some edits tomorrow!

 

[ClayinCA]

As I said before and I will say again for myself and the two to three hundred Voyager fans I represent (and I do represent a large and active Voyager message board and fandom). If Kathryn Janeway is dead at the end of Kristen Beyer's book there will be no other purchases.

Kristen I will tell you, we were looking forward to your series. We bought "Distant Shores" primarily for your short story in that book, but we want Janeway back and we will tell everyone. Don't discount us or insult us, we are grown women. I am 61 years old, I read Trek, but I also read Linnea Sinclair and Susan Grant. I truly believe that if you don't to give us what we want to read, we will find it elsewhere or write it ourselves.

You want us to rethink our perceptions, but it's really time for you to rethink yours. When have any of you looked at what really sells these days. Now I am not telling you to write that because you have to write true to yourselves, but don't use shock value which is very short lived, to kill off a very real opportunity that could be taken with a living Janeway.

The great appeal about Trek, is that it has always been about inclusion. You have excluded a lot of fans; we get called unkind names here. We are told "our" captain is unworthy of a life, that our captain has value only in death and the effect that death has on others. We don't like it and we have every right to dislike it, and every right to protest it.

Christopher, I read, I read a lot. I come from a reading family, my house has hundreds of books, don’t assume that because I don’t like the direction of the Trek Books that I don’t get it, or that I am somehow illiterate.

You don’t have to agree with us, but don’t talk down to us either.

Brit

Hi Brit,

I'm Kirsten.

I'm glad to know that "Isabo's Shirt" inspired you to purchase Distant Shores. It was a hard story to write and I believed at the time that fans who disliked the notion of a deeper relationship between Janeway and Chakotay than what had ever been explicitly demonstrated on the show (but which had surely been hinted at) would find the story tiresome. I did hope, however, that regardless of their preconceptions, they would find something to enjoy in the story's execution, if not subject matter.

By the same token, I also hope that fans who feel as strongly as you and others do about Janeway's death will find much to enjoy about Full Circle, even if they believe that this direction is ultimately less satisfying than they might like or would have chosen were this their job.

I, too, am a grown woman. I do not nor would ever disregard anyone or their opinions based on their gender, age, race, orientation, or personal values and I do take offense to any implication that a creative choice I have made either alone or in concert with my editor is somehow demonstratative of any such bias or any intention to alienate anyone who loves Voyager as much as I do.

At this point however, there can be no further constructive discussion of this topic until the novel is released and you've actually had a chance to read it. Once that's done, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have or discuss anything you wish. In fact, I look forward to it.

Best regards,
Kirsten Beyer

Kirsten,

That was an extremely civil and dignified response, one which I doubt I'd have been able to manage in your position (I would probably have been too busy trying to find the most verbose means imaginable in which to say "Get over yourself!").

Honestly, I've never been a particular fan of either Voyager in general or the Janeway character in particular, but this situation has got my interest piqued, as it offers the opportunity to explore the question "What happens to a Star Trek series whose captain has died?" Which I don't think has ever occurred before; we've had tastes of this, in episodes like "The Tholian Web" and "Chain of Command," when it seems the crew has lost their captain, but there's never been a chance to go into this sort of thing in depth, and find out what Janeway's loss will really mean to the Voyager crew and characters.

In candor, I have to admit that I've not read your work previously, but based on what you've said about "Isabo's Shirt," it sounds like I might enjoy it, and soon as I can manage it financially, I'm going to track it down. I definitely plan to get Full Circle when it comes out, so if you've lost a reader in Brit, I guess you can take some consolation (albeit minor) that you've gained a new one.

 

[Christopher]

Honestly, I've never been a particular fan of either Voyager in general or the Janeway character in particular, but this situation has got my interest piqued, as it offers the opportunity to explore the question "What happens to a Star Trek series whose captain has died?" Which I don't think has ever occurred before; we've had tastes of this, in episodes like "The Tholian Web" and "Chain of Command," when it seems the crew has lost their captain, but there's never been a chance to go into this sort of thing in depth, and find out what Janeway's loss will really mean to the Voyager crew and characters.

Interesting way of looking at it. It's not as if there haven't been other series that lost their original leads and carried on without them. Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 spring to mind, as well as both Stargate series (though O'Neill remained in a recurring capacity after he left, and Weir was the second lead of the show despite being the leader of the expedition). Although of those four, only Blake and Weir were considered dead rather than simply reassigned. And there are instances outside of SFTV as well, even discounting ensemble or procedural shows (ER, Law & Order, etc.) where cast changes are fairly frequent and have limited impact. One tragic example is the sitcom 8 Simple Rules for Dating My Teenage Daughter, which was conceived as a John Ritter vehicle but was forced to revamp after Ritter's sudden death.

 

[Trent Roman]

Honestly, I've never been a particular fan of either Voyager in general or the Janeway character in particular, but this situation has got my interest piqued, as it offers the opportunity to explore the question "What happens to a Star Trek series whose captain has died?" Which I don't think has ever occurred before; we've had tastes of this, in episodes like "The Tholian Web" and "Chain of Command," when it seems the crew has lost their captain, but there's never been a chance to go into this sort of thing in depth, and find out what Janeway's loss will really mean to the Voyager crew and characters.

Actually, we have been here before: Kirk died (twice) in "Generations". That said, I'm not aware of any concerted effort to show how his (by now, former) crew reacted to his loss, although we did get a few SNW short stories out of it, as I recall.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Woman

 

[Christopher]

Actually, we have been here before: Kirk died (twice) in "Generations". That said, I'm not aware of any concerted effort to show how his (by now, former) crew reacted to his loss, although we did get a few SNW short stories out of it, as I recall.

But there hasn't been an ongoing series exploring how the crew continues after the loss of their leader -- especially considering that the crew disbanded before he "died."

 

[Trent Roman]

^ No, but there could have been; it's not a unique situation. And the Voyager crew has disbanded as well on its return to the Alpha Quadrant, as was only logical.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Woman

 

[Christopher]

I don't see what "could have been" has to do with it. ClayinCA is talking about what has or hasn't been done before, not what could have been done before.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ I'm not entirely sure what your objection to the point is: namely, that we've already had "a Star Trek series whose captain has died"; and the fiction had the opportunity to explore everything now prospectively being pursued by the Voyager line, but opted not to in that case.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Woman

 

[KRAD]

Actually, we have been here before: Kirk died (twice) in "Generations". That said, I'm not aware of any concerted effort to show how his (by now, former) crew reacted to his loss, although we did get a few SNW short stories out of it, as I recall.

Vulcan's Forge by Josepha Sherman & Susan Shwartz, Engines of Destiny by Gene DeWeese, and the sixth and final part of Mere Anarchy by Margaret Wander Bonanno all dealt with the aftermath of Kirk's apparent death in the Generations prelude (in the case of the DeWeese book, it was just Scotty's reaction).

 

[Dayton Ward]

IIRC, the Generations novelization also spent a small amount of time with reactions to Kirk's death" on the E-B, but it was all in the immediate aftermath, rather than any dwelling on it much later after life had "moved on."

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

In candor, I have to admit that I've not read your work previously, but based on what you've said about "Isabo's Shirt," it sounds like I might enjoy it, and soon as I can manage it financially, I'm going to track it down. I definitely plan to get Full Circle when it comes out, so if you've lost a reader in Brit, I guess you can take some consolation (albeit minor) that you've gained a new one.

That is good to hear. I look forward to your thoughts about both.

Best,
Kirsten

 

[Hardin]

I hated Before Dishonor and Janeway's death was one of the many reasons why I despise that book. At this point, all I ask to Full Circle is to be good and to put VOY's post-tv stories back on track, after so much time.

If that means Janeway comes back (unfortunately, I rather doubt it), awesome. If she doesn't, well, I've developed a much thicker skin to characters' death since I've plunged into the Whedonverse. I can deal (*sigh*, *sniff*). I just wish her demise had happened in a book I could love and for reasons I could get behind.

Anyway, this was just to say: I'm looking forward to Full Circle and I certainly won't hold past plot developments against it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just wish her demise had happened in a book I could love and for reasons I could get behind.

But Janeway will start off alive in "Full Circle". The book supposedly progresses from "Spirit Walk" and on through the events of the TNG Relaunch, the "Destiny" trilogy, and beyond. Doesn't it?

I'm not so sure Janeway's death in "Full Circle" will definitely be handled as a mere footnote, telling new readers that it was an event that happened off-page.

 

[Hardin]

But Janeway will start off alive in "Full Circle". The book supposedly progresses from "Spirit Walk" and on through the events of the TNG Relaunch, the "Destiny" trilogy, and beyond. Doesn't it?

I'm not sure sure Janeway's death in "Full Circle" will definitely be handled as a mere footnote, telling new readers that it was an event that happened off-page.

Oh.

Well, that would be a little weird. I mean, Janeway dies (in a non VOY book, but let's not go there) and the next VOY book merely takes note of it? Is that even possible?

On the other hand, an alive Janeway for at least most of the book is better than a dead one. And I for one don't really want to read a 200+ pages character eulogy, that's for sure.

Anyway, doesn't it feel like Peter David had his fun and left the other writers to collect the debris?

 

[Defcon]

Anyway, doesn't it feel like Peter David had his fun and left the other writers to collect the debris?

As has been stated numerous times Janeway's death wasn't PAD's decision, Editor Margaret Clark asked him to kill her off.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Anyway, doesn't it feel like Peter David had his fun and left the other writers to collect the debris?

^ Uh, oh....now you've done it.

[Don LaFontaine]

In a world...where Peter David had his fun....

Christopher: "Oh my GOD! Have you seen this??? What am I supposed to do with this?"

Kirsten: "You? Does your book have a frikkin' Voyager logo on it, 'yatch?"

...others are left to collect the debris....

Kirsten: "The fandroids are gonna burn me at the stake, Marco. What the hell am I supposed to do?"

Marco: "Run. Run very fast...or, at least faster than Bennett or Keith."

...where peace and harmony once thrived, only chaos now reigns supreme....

Kirsten: "Dave, I need some help. What should I do to smooth out this plot mess Peter left us?"

Mack: "Do what I do: Kill more people, and blow up more shit."

....Next spring, a new chapter in the Star Trek saga begins...

Kirsten: "Who is that guy with the creepy voice, anyway?"

Keith: "I think it's Ward. You know how he loves those cigars."

[/Don LaFontaine]