B5 - Londos' first 2 chances at redemption?

[hxclespaulplayer]

Lady Morella said he had already spent his first 2 chances. I reckon they were siding with Morden in the first place, and him telling "homeworld" he would take take of the problem in quadrant 37.

BTW, does anyone else want to rip Zacks' tounge out when he says to Lyta: "I don't think you should be seeing him (Byron) anymore!" lol, sounds like a parent! Speaking of the actor, what an irony it is that he was a wineo, before Garibaldi hired him, is in rehad IRL?

Now am I the only one that doesn't mind Byron one bit? Especialy like him allowing that thug to repeatedly hit him.... "Was one the same as three? Was three the same as one and two? Was there any difference between one, two and three? And what would you expect to get out of four, five and six that you did not get out of one, two and three?"

Very intelligent way to mindfrak a bully.

I don't care for Zathras' much. Amazingly, I didn't care for G'Kar so much, the character is pretty stellar, but not quite on par with Delenn and Londo.

Oh, and LOVE Jurasiks' accent he put on just for the series, especially adding "yes" and "hmm" to almost everything... "Yes? And why is that, hmm? I don't think you have any interest in restoring the glory of the Centauri Republic! No, I think you are using us as --- shall we say, agents of chaos? A convenient distraction making it easier for your associates to do whatever they wish to do, yes?"

And when Londo changes Virs' Minbari report on him: "Londo, you always DO this to me!!!" Reminds me of my whiny 10 y/o brother (but who wouldn't whine while serving Londos' every need?)

 

[Jan]

Lady Morella said he had already spent his first 2 chances. I reckon they were siding with Morden in the first place, and him telling "homeworld" he would take take of the problem in quadrant 37.

It could have been any of several things but the ones I picked were the answer that Londo gave to Morden when they first met and Londo not stopping the bombing of Narn with mass drivers.

Now am I the only one that doesn't mind Byron one bit? Especialy like him allowing that thug to repeatedly hit him.... "Was one the same as three? Was three the same as one and two? Was there any difference between one, two and three?And what would you expect to get out of four, five and six that you did not get out of one, two and three?"

I never minded him at all. In fact, I get far more annoyed at all of the posts that constantly harp on the fact that Byron and the telepath colony members had clean hair. That said, I did notice that a number of scenes that would have shown Byron's relationship with his followers better ended up getting cut.

I don't care for Zathras' much. Amazingly, I didn't care for G'Kar so much, the character is pretty stellar, but not quite on par with Delenn and Londo.

Love Zathras, particularly the long scene with Ivanova in 'Conflicts of Interest'.

Oh, and LOVE Jurasiks' accent he put on just for the series, especially adding "yes" and "hmm" to almost everything... "Yes? And why is that, hmm? I don't think you have any interest in restoring the glory of the Centauri Republic! No, I think you are using us as --- shall we say, agents of chaos? A convenient distraction making it easier for your associates to do whatever they wish to do, yes?"

While the accent is purely Peter's invention, the speach mannerisms were scripted by JMS. Here's a post where he discusses that a bit.

Jan

 

[Neroon]

I think we had this discussion not all that long ago. But it's a subject that never runs dry of interesting value. This is one of those subtopics I plan to use for a panel discussion at Marcon next year.

 

[Orintho]

BTW, does anyone else want to rip Zacks' tounge out when he says to Lyta: "I don't think you should be seeing him (Byron) anymore!" lol, sounds like a parent!

Well, it was more like good advice. Byron was a fool.

 

[RoJoHen]

I hated Byron, and I'm glad he blew himself up.

 

[Elemental]

While arguments can be made for many, I think the strongest points at which Londo could have chosen a different path were in "The Coming of Shadows" when he knowingly enlists Morden's help to attack the Narns, and then again when he did nothing to stop the bombing of the Narn homeworld.

There was really nothing he did wrong when he first spoke to Morden; just offered an opinion which Morden exploited.

And I also thought Byron was a great character and didn't deserve the flack he got.

 

[JoeD80]

I figured his first chance was becoming part of The Great Machine instead of Draal. Remember he went down to Epsilon 3 knowing one of them wouldn't come back, so he already thought he might be the one to sacrifice himself on the planet. That's the first thing that popped into my head when I first saw "Point of No Return". In "Voice in the Wilderness" Londo says:

Of course I do. One of us will not return, yes? As a young and foolish Centauri, I swore that I would die on my feet doing something noble and brave and futile. Perhaps it was not so wild a dream as I thought. Or as foolish. It is better than waiting for the inevitable.

 

[Jan]

I figured his first chance was becoming part of The Great Machine instead of Draal. Remember he went down to Epsilon 3 knowing one of them wouldn't come back, so he already thought he might be the one to sacrifice himself on the planet. That's the first thing that popped into my head when I first saw "Point of No Return". In "Voice in the Wilderness" Londo says:

Of course I do. One of us will not return, yes? As a young and foolish Centauri, I swore that I would die on my feet doing something noble and brave and futile. Perhaps it was not so wild a dream as I thought. Or as foolish. It is better than waiting for the inevitable.

You know, I dont' think I've ever seen that one suggested but you're right, of course. Very cool.

And welcome over here, JoeD80!

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, that's spot on. I'd never considered that. It certainly rings true as an act of redemption since it involves actively doing something, where most of the other possibilities put forward amount to him cancelling a meeting with Morden.
Perhaps the second chance was in 'Knives'. Londo could have allowed himself to be killed in the Murago, but then his friend wouldn't have been better off for it.

 

[Neroon]

Yeah, that's spot on. I'd never considered that. It certainly rings true as an act of redemption since it involves actively doing something, where most of the other possibilities put forward amount to him cancelling a meeting with Morden.

That particular incident came before Londo's fall really picked up speed. Even so, I had never thought of that particular possibility as being one of his chances.... and Lady Morella did say "you've already wasted two others".

Perhaps the second chance was in 'Knives'. Londo could have allowed himself to be killed in the Murago, but then his friend wouldn't have been better off for it.

An interesting quandry. Had Urza beaten him - he was always the better fighter according to Londo - Urza's house would still have been under threat from Refa. So in a sense, wouldn't that have been the more selfish act for Londo? To save himself, Londo would have had to sacrifice Urza's house along with his own life wouldn't he?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Of course, had Londo died in the Murago then Mordan would go to Refa sooner than later as he did in the series. Would events have played out the same or would they have been far, far worse?

 

[Reverend]

Well with Refa still around, there would have been someone to keep control of Cartagia and it's unlikely that he would have allowed the base on selini, which means no Vorlon attack fleet which means Morden might not have been executed (just left behind), incidently Adira wouldn't have been poisoned and most likely the Drakh wouldn't have come to Centauri Prime, with all the decades of consequences that that wrought upon the galaxy. Refa would probably have knocked off Cartagia himself and become Emperor, so Vintari might not have been in line at all (or knocked off as well as a potential threat.) Let's see what else...G'Kar wouldn't have died when and where he did, though actually he probably would have bought it sooner after his capture, unless Refa cut the same deal with him as Londo to help remove Cartagia, I doubt it though.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^Or if Refa set himself up as Emperor after knocking off Cartegia, then he might've entered into a long-term partnership with the Shadows, allowing them access to Centuri Prime. He did seem to have an "admiration" for the power the Shadows were able to wield. Perhaps instead of the Drakh, the Shadows would be the ones to set up permenant shop on Centuri Prime (kinda like in JMS' outline for the proposed spin-off Babylon Prime).

 

[Reverend]

Well in that case the Vorlons might have got there sooner...or not. Either way it wouldn't have effected what went down in the Corianas system.

 

[Neroon]

Are you sure that Refa would have been able to control Cartagia? Sneaky as Refa could be, he was not much of a match for Londo when it came to cleverness and strategy. Politically devious? Oh yeah, Refa was definitely that. BUt I doubt he could handle Cartagia as well as Londo did. That required subtle, patient manipulation.

 

[Reverend]

Hard to judge objectively since we only really saw Refa when he was meeting Londo, so we really don't have a good idea just how sneeky he was. Still I think it was stated that Refa was the only one keeping Cartagia under control and his absence seamed to have been why he was doing his Caligula routine in season 4.

 

[Mistral]

Londo and the Great Machine? Someone has to ask JMS about that-brilliant insight!

 

[Neroon]

Hard to judge objectively since we only really saw Refa when he was meeting Londo, so we really don't have a good idea just how sneeky he was. Still I think it was stated that Refa was the only one keeping Cartagia under control and his absence seamed to have been why he was doing his Caligula routine in season 4.

It is hard to judge objectively, that's for sure. I don't recall specific dialogue pertaining to Refa keeping Cartagia "under control", though. Mind you I don't have the script-books here, nro do I have that photographic kind of memory Ivanova employs. But I can't recall anything to mind.

Still, Refa was nobody to dismiss. He was bold enough to kill Prime Minister Malachi. Smart enough to align himself with Cartagia, although just how "smart" that was can be debated.

 

[Jan]

Hard to judge objectively since we only really saw Refa when he was meeting Londo, so we really don't have a good idea just how sneeky he was. Still I think it was stated that Refa was the only one keeping Cartagia under control and his absence seamed to have been why he was doing his Caligula routine in season 4.

It is hard to judge objectively, that's for sure. I don't recall specific dialogue pertaining to Refa keeping Cartagia "under control", though. Mind you I don't have the script-books here, nro do I have that photographic kind of memory Ivanova employs. But I can't recall anything to mind.

I can't remember anything about Refa keeping Cartagia under control but in the poisoning scene, Londo says,

You encouraged that fool Cartagia

to attack worlds that have no value
to us; they are trinkets, wars we
know we can win. You will now​

encourage him otherwise.

Refa could be manipulative indeed but sometimes was too obviously wanting to be in control. Recall how in "Knives" he tried to threaten Londo's position with Refa's faction until Londo reminded him sharply that it was Londo who had made their plans a reality.

Still, Refa was nobody to dismiss. He was bold enough to kill Prime Minister Malachi. Smart enough to align himself with Cartagia, although just how "smart" that was can be debated.

And smart enough to align himself with Londo at the earliest moment that he suspected that Londo had hidden forces.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

The way I saw it Refa was already a power in the Centaurum and the royal court when Londo's star began to rise. The Emperor was getting old, he had no clear heir, though with no shortage of competitors it took his alliance with Londo to get ahead of the pack.
From "The Long, Twilight Struggle":-

- Refa, the emperor?
- Is out among his people, basking in their almost- sincere adulation. He has left things here in the hands of his court...which can function just as well without him as with him. Sometimes better.
- A point that has not been lost on him.
- I will only say he appreciates his position and ours. And yours.

Clearly there is some leverage there, though I dare say that a year later his feud with Londo has cost him some of his control.

From "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place":-

- And now your house is in competition with his. He has had a great influx of funds
to his house, Refa. With money comes power. Many have gone over to his side.
- I still have more voices in the Centaurum, and I have served the emperor very well. I would remind His Excellency that it was I, not Londo...who organized the attack on the Narn Homeworld. I, not Mollari...who removed Prime Minister Malachi and enabled Cartagia to take the throne. I--
- Yes, yes. And the emperor appreciates your part in his ascension. But this division between two of our oldest noble houses serves no one.

Since what happened with House Jaddo was in essence what began the feud between Mollari and Refa, had Londo not survived the murago Refa's position would have been solidified, with no direct competition. It's clear he fully intended to claim the throne for himself (he even said as much) so with Londo dead, Morden would have become his new best friend. Cartagia wasn't politically clever enough to survive someone like Refa once his power base was establised. In fact I think Morden would have probably arranged for the removal of Cartagia himself, or just slapped a Drakh keeper on him.

Mind you, with Refa in charge, the Centauri's wars with the League members wouldn't have been dialed back, making the Alliance more difficult to maintain and perhaps even resulting in the Battle of Sector 83 going in the Shadow's favour. So Justin might not have sent Anna, Sheridan might not have gone to Z'ha'Dum, the Vorlons wouldn't have turned nasty and the war would have gone just like the last one with it starting all over again in 1000 years...Hmm. Maybe Londo did there right thing after all.