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Yes, going back and watching pretty much any Dukat/Kira interactions now have a distasteful and sick quality to them.
One thing that in particular strikes me, in Ties of Blood and Water, Dukat and Weyoun offer Ghemor the location of his daughter. What the hell were they going to do if he had agreed?! Whip up another clone ala Second Skin? Did Weyoun know where she was, or was he just taking Dukat's word that *he* knew?
I always knew that Dukat had a thing for Kira, and not just because of her mother, he genuinely believed like mother like daughter. And while he couldn't get what he wanted from the real Kira, he took what he wanted from Illiana and in the end he probably believed she was Kira, which didn't help Illiana any.
The man was sick and the Pah Wraiths are welcome to him.
One thing that in particular strikes me, in Ties of Blood and Water, Dukat and Weyoun offer Ghemor the location of his daughter. What the hell were they going to do if he had agreed?! Whip up another clone ala Second Skin? Did Weyoun know where she was, or was he just taking Dukat's word that *he* knew?
Probably the latter. Dukat's the one who makes the offer, presumably because it was a trade he was actually willing to make. One assumes he would have had Iliana's memories of her incarceration expunged before setting her free, and that he would have invented a plausible cover story to explain how he found Ghemor's poor amnesiac daughter.
I'm gonna agree with most of the opinions here - what there was excellent, but there just wasn't a lot. Knowing the background mollifies me for the majority of what small problem that might cause. A couple of other little interesting things i haven't seen anyone else mention yet, thus making myself feel superior:
Making Illiana a natural artist was an interesting choice in that Kira is firmly established as having no artistic abilities whatsoever. Total opposites become the same person.
Also interesting is that I very recently re-read Fragments & Omens in preparation for FS. Yes, one storyline deals with Illiana's attack on Sidau. But the other deals with Rena, Jake's new wife. She is also an artist, and her storyline deals with the effects of trying to reject and turn away from her natural ability. In the end she embraces it and is all the happier for it. Then we come to Illiana, who turns away from her ability, and disaster comes from it. Interesting reflections.
Making Illiana a natural artist was an interesting choice in that Kira is firmly established as having no artistic abilities whatsoever. Total opposites become the same person.
We still don't know how Iliana managed to convince the Intendant it was all her idea, though.
As others have said above, I read FS in between parts 2 & 3 of Terok Nor, and I admire how they fit together nicely, espcially in how they describe the Occupation. TN3 even mentioned the "seven days" Kira spent on the run from the Cardassians, and how she is somehow more lucky at escaping capture than everyone else. It's very creepy to realise that Kira has been under Dukat's "protection" all this time.
I also admire how it ties in with Saturn's Children. shivkala's theory above of Vaughn perhaps becoming the MU's Emissary would go some way towards explaining why he didn't appear in SC - if he's already dead in the MU. It also ties in brilliantly with the way Vaughn and Sisko's storylines have been deliberately paralleled ever since Avatar.
RU-Dukat is dead. We assume that MU-Dukat is dead too, after Ro's failed attempt to get rid of Kira in SC. But we know both Macets are still alive. Warpath established that MU-Macet was the Intendant's primary Cardassian contact, and FS went out of its way to remind us that Dukat and Macet are practically identical. Is Iliana crazy enough to go after Macet, thinking it's Dukat? Maybe the "repeated faces" motif is our way out of this.
Also, nice little echo - SC begins with MU-Kira suffering rape from Martok. In FS, Iliana-Kira's life begins with being raped by Dukat.
When MU-Iliana admits to RU-Kira that she had an experience on MU-Bajor, Kira thinks it was an Orb, but Iliana waffles. I think it was the MU's paghvaram that she encountered, hidden in that religious enclave. And I think Iliana-Kira knows it. I think that as well as killing every parallel Kira she can get her hands on, she's planning on collecting every parallel paghvaram she can get her hands on. MU-Iliana did say that the Intendant was planning a visit to Bajor. Maybe she thinks she can combine them to create a new Orb.
OOH! Or...
Maybe the paghvaram is not an Orb fragment at all, but an Eav'oq crystal! Ooh!
I knew Dukat was twisted but I didn't now he was that twisted. Unfreakingbelivable! I realy enjoyed this book. Except for eating and bathroom breaks I read it straight through.
Liked Side Two more than side One. Side One was a exercise in treading water, a well written one, but it was still treading water.
Side Two was better simply as it went in one epic sweep through the whole of someone ones life and shows how a good person can become not so good. The slow loss of Ataans ideals shown through his letters was a good touch. It was also fasinating to see Cardassia through a Cardassians eyes.
My only real complant with the book was the revalation of Dukats treatment of Illiana. I disliked the way DS9 pushed Dukat down the path of evilness and adding rape to his list of charges removes any grey areas that we left in his character. He is evil. If there no conflict between good and evil in a character, what good is he as a dramatic device?
My only real complant with the book was the revalation of Dukats treatment of Illiana. I disliked the way DS9 pushed Dukat down the path of evilness and adding rape to his list of charges removes any grey areas that we left in his character. He is evil. If there no conflict between good and evil in a character, what good is he as a dramatic device?
My only real complant with the book was the revalation of Dukats treatment of Illiana. I disliked the way DS9 pushed Dukat down the path of evilness and adding rape to his list of charges removes any grey areas that we left in his character. He is evil. If there no conflict between good and evil in a character, what good is he as a dramatic device?
Yeah, during the Klingon-Cardassian War it looked they were on the verge of redeeming him, but really when you look at the history of the character there's not a lot that's redeemable about him.
Compare Dukat to Tekeny Ghemor; the latter also turned out to have oppressed the Bajorans, but I don't think he took things as far. It's an interesting point of discussion generally: how much can someone atone for unspeakable crimes?
Yeah, during the Klingon-Cardassian War it looked they were on the verge of redeeming him, but really when you look at the history of the character there's not a lot that's redeemable about him.
Compare Dukat to Tekeny Ghemor; the latter also turned out to have oppressed the Bajorans, but I don't think he took things as far. It's an interesting point of discussion generally: how much can someone atone for unspeakable crimes?
Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the Occupation comes from the Terok Nor trilogy. But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?
Yeah, during the Klingon-Cardassian War it looked they were on the verge of redeeming him, but really when you look at the history of the character there's not a lot that's redeemable about him.
Compare Dukat to Tekeny Ghemor; the latter also turned out to have oppressed the Bajorans, but I don't think he took things as far. It's an interesting point of discussion generally: how much can someone atone for unspeakable crimes?
Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the Occupation comes from the Terok Nor trilogy. But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?
Yeah, during the Klingon-Cardassian War it looked they were on the verge of redeeming him, but really when you look at the history of the character there's not a lot that's redeemable about him.
Compare Dukat to Tekeny Ghemor; the latter also turned out to have oppressed the Bajorans, but I don't think he took things as far. It's an interesting point of discussion generally: how much can someone atone for unspeakable crimes?
Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the Occupation comes from the Terok Nor trilogy. But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?
Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the Occupation comes from the Terok Nor trilogy. But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?
You mean apart from just his ego-driven running of the oppressive occupation of an unthreatening alien world for close to a quarter-century? Well, let's see...
- Allowing a prominent Cardassian politician to believe his entire family was wiped out in a terrorist attack, when in fact he'd kept the man's only child hidden away on Bajor speciifically so the boy could later be used as a pawn against the father... ("Cardassians")
- Threatening to let DS9 self-destruct if he wasn't allowed to restore a Cardassian military presence aboard the station... ("Civil Defense")
- Informing Kira about the nature of his relationship to her mother, specifically in order to torment her with the information... ("Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night")
- Coercing Bajoran women into sexual servitude... ("Things Past," "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night")
- Using the resistance as an excuse to withhold food from Bajorans on Terok Nor... ("Things Past")
- Betraying the DS9 crew (and by extension, the rest of Alpha Quadrant), when he allowed them to believe he was on their side, even while he was negotiating secretly with the Dominion to let them take over Cardassia, with himself as the Union's puppet ruler... ("By Inferno's Light")
- Dangling knowledge of Iliana Ghemor's whereabouts to her mortally-ill and suffering father, just to shut him up... ("Ties of Blood and Water")
- Leading a cult of nihilistic Bajorans toward a mass-suicide ritual he had no intention of participating in, even while he was seducing at least one of its female members and siring a child who would have died with the mother. ("Covenant")
Those were the first that came to mind. There are probably others.
Funny. Before Fearful Symmetry, I wouldn't have said pre-Pah Wraith Dukat committed any unspeakable crimes. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the Occupation comes from the Terok Nor trilogy. But is there something in particular that I'm missing that he was responsible for?
I think the number of people who still hold out that Dukat "wasn't that bad" are a testament to what a charismatic and effective performer Marc Alaimo was. You could tell Dukat believed it, and were seduced into believing it yourself.
I think the number of people who still hold out that Dukat "wasn't that bad" are a testament to what a charismatic and effective performer Marc Alaimo was. You could tell Dukat believed it, and were seduced into believing it yourself.
Which is exactly why the show's writers had him go all-out bugnuts and become a pure villain -- because they realized that audiences were becoming too sympathetic toward him and forgetting or excusing the horrendous acts he'd been responsible for. They went somewhat too far in the opposite direction, IMHO, but I do understand why they felt it was necessary.
