End of Shadow War = Lame

[Lindley]

Let's watch the spoilers. Easy to forget, I know.

 

[DWF]

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/072.html#JS

Two ancient adversaries gave up just because Delenn and Sheridan told them to?
I think that, for me, what mitigates against that is that a) it wasn't just Delenn and Sheridan, it was with virtually every other major civilization around backing their play, and adding their support, their voice, even being willing to die for the sake of this confrontation. If it were just the two of them...they'd be scragged. The two forces needed to be shown that the others had turned against them, and that their true faces had been exposed.
b) The other key for me is that neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows saw themselves as conquerers or adversaries...both believed they were doing what was right for us. And like any possessive parent, they'll keep on believing that until the kid is strong enough to stand up and say, "No, this is what *I* want." Most wars tend to end with one singular event...sometimes it's a big bomb, or a series of big bombs...and sometimes it comes with a negotiation. The two sides meet in a room, sometimes with representatives of other nations, and together they hammer out a truce, or a peace. There's the Nagasaki solution on the one hand, and the "let's meet in a room and talk about this" of Jimmy Carter, Anwar Sadat and Minister Begin.
Both work.

I think it's too easy to see the Shadow war being some kind of good VS evil conflict but it was never meant to be that way. Of course it's hard to any possible way the Shadows wree in any way "good" but I guess that depends on your point of view.

 

[Jan]

The Vorlons weren't exactly good guys either. The first Kosh killed DeathWalker, terrorized Talia Winters and brutalized Sheridan when he dared to stand up to him; the second mistreated and assaulted Lyta. They stood around looking cryptic while they manipulated the other races to fight and die for them. Nope, not good guys at all.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

True, but the second Kosh (or Ulkesh) had nothing but bad intentions from my viewing.

The first Kosh, on the other hand, killed Deathwalker because of the negative effects her technology were about to cause. He messed with Lyta, but that probably had something to do with her Psi Corp reconditioning (we'll never know, since Andrea Thompson left the show). And he had a fight with Sheridan that Sheridan won. Hardly the stuff of a villain.

 

[Reverend]

I think it should be remembered that Kosh admitted he was wrong and was willing to sacrifice himself to correct that error. Not something I can ever see Ulkesh doing.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1325

And yes, Kosh and Ulkesh were contemporaries, though Ulkesh was
the more military of the two, very isolationist, while Kosh was the
curious one, interested in the younger races, and more willing to
extend himself (with sometimes unfortunate results). Kosh always
worried what Ulkesh would do without his moderating presence...and
ultimately had to be the one to take him down to allow the younger
races to step forward.

jms

I think what some people miss in "Into The Fire" and quite understandably by the way it was presented is that Loiren let the whole fleet saw the Vorlons and Shadows "private" discussion with Sheridan and Delenn. Any doubts about their moral authority disappeared when the whole fleet crowed around Whitestar 2, willingly sacrificing themselves. If they'd have had the budget for it, it might have helped to have been able to see the other races on their ships...or not, as it would have split the focus of the argument.

 

[Tulin]

The unsatisfying part is the Vorlons and Shadows being reduced to the level of whining children. Lorien explains stuff and the whiny Vorlon and Shadow ask him if he'll go with them when they leave and go beyond the rim. They were shockingly whiny and childlike.

That's the whole pint - that they ARE children to Lorien. One of the motiffs in B5 is that there is a heirarchy to existence in the universe and that for every omniscient/omnipotent appearing race in the universe, there is a race that is so old and advanced it alost appears to be like THAT race's parent.

The point is that eventually WE become the shepherds to younger races and will WE do better?

It is pretty self-evident.

 

[stonester1]

Yup, the first Kosh WAS a "good guy". Not that his race was evil, they weren't. But they were aloof, detatched and had their own agenda. At one time, they were about the well being of the younger races, but over time, that changed.

That is one of the things that made Kosh Naranek such a bleeding heart. He WAS about the well being of the other races and actually cared about them.

Even cared about individuals among the other races, which may have even made him unique among his people, and probably a chief reason why he got the assignment to B5.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The end of the Shadow War was possibly my favorite part of Babylon 5. For one thing, it illustrated the weakness and insecurity that lies behind the hunger for power. But, even better, it was a great metaphor for the times we live in: It showed Humanity trapped between two extreme and ridiculous ideologies, and it gave us the proper response: "Get the hell out of our galaxy."

 

[stj]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

As to the main topic, remember the most brilliant victory is the one won without fighting. Any notion that a satisfactory climax involves the humans actually defeating the Vorlons and the Shadows is childish. A major point of the series is that the Shadows and the Vorlons keep playing war games because they aren't paying any price for it. If either the Shadows or the Vorlons attempted to continue their attack on the supporters of the other, then they would be facing the combined might of the enemy (alone more or less equal,) the united lesser races, and the remnant First Ones brought by Ivanova. That coalition would exact altogether too high a price for their glorified hobby. The only way Shadows and Vorlons could continue is to make an agreement---then the lesser races, even with the First Ones, wouldn't have a chance. But then, if the Shadows and Vorlons could have agreed, would there have been a cycle of wars in the first place?

The climax is better than thrilling---it's honest and inevitable.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

 

[Jan]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

Tsk-tsk...Green and Purple!

Jan

 

[Meredith]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

Damn Vorlons and their Coke and Damn Shadows and their Pepsi.


I wonder who drinks generic soda?

 

[Skywalker]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

Damn Vorlons and their Coke and Damn Shadows and their Pepsi.


I wonder who drinks generic soda?

Trek aliens.

 

[RoJoHen]

The Drazi drink RC Cola.

 

[Meredith]

The Drazi drink RC Cola.

Purple Drazi drink RC Cola, Green Drazi drink Diet RC Cola!

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

Damn Vorlons and their Coke and Damn Shadows and their Pepsi.


I wonder who drinks generic soda?

Trek aliens.

Shasta!

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^^^Whatever would those two ideologies now trapping humanity be?

Why, Coke and Pepsi, of course.

Tsk-tsk...Green and Purple!

Red Drazi and Blue Drazi.

Damn Vorlons and their Coke and Damn Shadows and their Pepsi.


I wonder who drinks generic soda?

Well, the pak'ma'ra, but that kind of goes without saying....

 

[Reverend]

Pak'ma'ra can only drink cola that has been flat for three days. They're carrion drinkers too, you know.

 

[stonester1]

Preferably after someone has peed in it, too.

 

[Forbin]