Section 31

[Jono]

^ I always took the Founder's retreat and consolidation of the Cardassian Union in Dogs of War to be an indication that the Dominion at least did not believe they could win the war once the Federation and Romulan fleets rejoined the fight fully, despite the addition of a fresh new ally to add ships and soldiers to the fight. In turn that suggests prior to the Breen joining the war the Dominion was also losing.

 

[SoM]

In "What You Leave Behind", we see and hear that the Dominion forces could cripple the Alpha militaries by adopting a last-stand tactic. During the general course of the war, we see and hear that the Dominion can increase its strength fantastically even when in isolation. Basically, then, at all points of "What You Leave Behind" before the bioweapon cure card was played, the Dominion was actually being victorious!

Well, it's one of these things - the Dominion had pulled back to Cardassia Prime, leaving the rest of the Cardassian Union unprotected. Any and all shipyards, Jem'Hadar breeding facilities, White facilities (and did Cardassia Prime have the raw materials for White, considering how the Dominion were willing to make concessions just to get a system with the raw materials in Statistical Probabilities?), etc outside of C-Prime could and would be destroyed (or co-opted in some cases, I suppose) by the Fed/Klingon/Romulan alliance. That would severely weaken the Dominion's ability to rebuild.

And finally, didn't the Founder assume a ground war to finish off the Jem'Hadar, allowing for the massive pyrrhic victory? One might suggest that the Romulans (especially, but possibly the Klingons too) might just nuke them from orbit (figuratively speaking) if it got to that point...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not to sound stupid, but do we know that some forces (albeit a reduced force) weren't left in other territories of the Union? I mean, if I were the Female Changeling, I'd say Damar's rebellion would provide ample reason to fear that the other worlds of the Union would rise up and make re-establishing their leadership whenever they reemerged a very dangerous proposition indeed, especially if by that point the outworld Cardassians were backed by the alliance forces.

 

[Renvar]

Well, I think that one important thing to keep in mind is that Section 31 only rarely acts; most of the time, things are resolved by Starfleet.

It's tough to judge how much S31 has acted, especially when considering Sloan's argument of the ends justifying the means, based off the number of lives they've saved.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it is not merely Section 31's methods that undermine the moral foundation of the Federation -- it's their very existence, which is unaccountable to the democratically-elected government.

Exactly. My attitude is similar to Julian's, in that to be judge, jury, and executioner is too much power for any one organization, no matter how it is justified.

And the third thing to keep in mind is that the moral progress of the Federation reflects the progress of more than just humanity, so it's inaccurate to refer primarily to World War III.

I suppose that was colored by my own personal belief that S31 is a rather xenophobic organization. I'm probably wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about any non-Terrans in the organization.

It didn't to me, because I think if you're going to tell a story about how a society ought to function, you have to also tell stories about how a society ought not to function. To put it another way:

The Federation is supposed to be a nearly ideal liberal democracy. In that sense, we can view the Federation as being what real-life states such as the United States, United Kingdom, French Republic, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and more, wish to be like. And that's fine.

But if you're going to tell a truly meaningful story about the ideal liberal democracy, one of the things the honest storyteller has to acknowledge is how difficult it is for a society to live up to those ideals and how there are always going to be times when aspects of that society will seek to influence the rest of society into abandoning those ideals... and that sometimes, even a good society betrays its ideals because it is not perfect.

To me, stories about Section 31 are good because they're meaningful to my life. I live in a country that was founded on the fundamental principles of liberty and equality -- and in a country that had race-based slavery for the first century of its existence. I live in a country that helped set the standard for international human rights -- and I live in a country whose government has been betraying those standards since 9/11. I'm very aware of the difference between the ideals of the United States and the reality of United States, so, for me, stories about how a liberal democracy falls short of its ideals are meaningful. They help to place the real-life political situation into context.

I'd be fine with it if Starfleet denounced S31 as soon as they got wind of it. The problem is that they didn't. The established leaders who were aware of it helped to facilitate their actions by keeping their silence, sitting on their hands while S31 went around to do whatever it wanted, society be damned. In my eyes, that makes them every bit as much the villains as S31 is.

And, further, they help reaffirm my belief in the potential of liberal democracy to overcome those hurdles and to improve. To become, in the words of the United States Constitution, a more perfect Union. DS9 ended before it could really get around to this, but it's fairly obvious that at some point, Bashir and Company were going to take them down and re-affirm the fundamental ideals of the Federation.

I'd love to know where you picked up on this fairly obvious point. I sure did not see anything in the series that even hinted at this fact. Sure they killed Sloan and foiled their plans to kill the Founders, but that's hardly close to destroying the entire organization. If this really is an organization that has lasted since the birth of the Federation, it's going to take more than one dead operative to stop them.

Actually, the Maquis represent something fundamentally different than the anarchy of breaking the rule of law: The Maquis are an attempt to establish an entirely new society and new rule of law. They're separatists -- they want to form their own Republic of Maquia or some such. Now, they may or may not also be terrorists in pursuing that objective. While you may not agree with their goal of sovereignty and independence, let's keep in mind that that's a very different thing than Section 31; the Maquis don't wish to be accountable to no one, they simply wish to be accountable to their own citizens instead of the larger Federation's. Section 31, on the other hand, as you rightfully noted, wishes to be accountable to no one and yet to have carte blanche to do whatever it wants at all times.

Every single time the Maquis were talked about, they were as Federation colonists. Not once did I ever hear them spoken of as a recognized separate government. Even though many of them, like Eddington, seemed to want to sever their status as Federation citizens, I never saw a single meeting or announcement in which the entire organization of Maquis unanimously declared themselves a separate state. Indeed, it would be highly difficult for them to do so, since the Maquis was by it's very nature a shattered organization, made of self-contained resistance cells. Sure there was organization between them, but not on a level that could be recognized as a governing body.

To be honest, I think the high morality of TNG was a mistake. It made the characters too perfect and dampened down on internal dramatic conflict, so they often had to create conflict externally. My favorite TNG moments, looking back, often came when their was infighting or disagreements among the crew or when a person was brought in that caused conflict-Shelby, Ro, Jellico, etc. I could relate to that much more. Yes, TNG/Trek is based in the future, but it was written by 20th century people for a 20th century audience. The characters from TOS and DS9 always felt more relatable to me because they did have flaws, they did argue a little bit more. I loved TNG, but the seemingly eternally happy crew thing didn't quite work for me.

Personally, I believed that to be the entire point of Star Trek, and the reason TNG is my favorite series. The "message" that I received and grew up with was that, in general, our human civilization had overcome the petty differences we face in our turbulent world today. They unified as a world, and in so doing proved to the galactic community that they were ready to start a new era in their social and scientific development.

Now granted, it's quite hard to overcome temptation and greed, but the message was that we had. If distention did arise, it could be dealt with internally in an organized, legislative, and if at all possible non-violent fashion.

Now along comes Section 31. A rogue organization, operating in secret since the birth of this "new era", going about doing exactly what we thought we had overcome, only instead of operating on a planetary scale, they are now open to act on a galactic scale. What's more, the UFP knows about it, and does nothing. This is the kind of hypocrisy that has dampened my opinions about the Federation. This is why I ask if it is true to the civilization Gene originally dreamed of.

In a nutshell, it may make for good storytelling; it may even make it more "real"; but I don't think it really had a place in Trek. The story should be about the problems of their century, not ours.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Originally Posted by Sci:

Not true. In fact, the virus almost denied them their victory. The Federation and its allies had already effectively won the war by mid-2375 militarily, before the effects of virus were affecting Dominion policy ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"). The Dominion was beat fair and square, but because the Female Shapeshifter was bitter and vindictive over her race's impending extinction, she decided to order all Dominion troops to retreat to Cardassia Prime and then was ready to order the Dominion fleet to make the Allies fight for every square inch of the planet, which would have resulted in a pyrrhic victory for the Allies. Had she not had that virus, the situation would have remained the same; the Dominion would have been defeated in the Alpha Quadrant. But the Female Shapeshifter would have been much less vindictive because her race would not have been facing extinction, and she probably would have surrendered and ordered Dominion troops back to the Gamma Quadrant. Only the intervention of Odo in granting them the cure saved the Federation from such a devestating "victory."

I think you seriously missed the point of the virus. Did you forget the 2800 Dominion ships that were destroyed by the Prophets... not to mention they prevented all traffic from coming into the Alpha Quadrant? No one in the Quadrant predicted that outcome. In fact, until Sisko and the Prophet intervention... the war was over once Dukat took down the mines. Everyone in the Quadrant knew that the Federation Alliance was getting their stuffings knocked out. Section 31 knew what kind of potential the Dominion had and like I said... that was a "guarentee." If the prophets hadn't intervene... all the Feds would have had to do is fight a delaying action to win the war as the Dominion would collapse from there.

Originally Posted by Sci

Hardly. If anything, the virus would have made the situation worse; by removing the only element keeping control of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, the virus would have unleashed interstellar chaos across two quadrants if it had worked as planned.

Which means the Jem'Hadar kill each other... which was the plan. The Cardassian's planned the same thing in Behind the Lines remember?

Originally Posted by Sci

Bullshit. Section 31's blowback nearly cost the Federation its survival.

I don't think Section 31 was the cause of the Dominion overruning the Alpha Quadrant. Yes, the cure was a liability at the end of the war but it still guarenteed victory no matter what way you put it. The Dominion would have collapsed whether they were winning or not. Hell, if the Federation became fully conquered it still guarenteed extinction of the founders. Hate to say it, but I think the genocidal disease was justified. I mean, no one comes down on Admiral Janeway's little genocidal pathogen in Endgame. The annihilation of the Borg is perfectly fine! What's the difference?

 

[Sci]

The engineering of the Founder Virus is not comparable to the dropping of the atomic bomb because Section 31 engineered and introduced the virus long before hostilities actually broke out.

But the atomic bomb was also engineered long before hostilities with Japan broke out,

Yeah, but it certainly wasn't detonated on the enemy before hostilities. The virus, on the other hand, was used first. It's the equivalent of firing the first shot.

And of course, hostilities with the Dominion had in fact broken out years before the virus was created (2nd vs. 4th season).

While there had certainly been skirmishes, the war did not start until late 2373, well over a year and a half after Section 31 sought to infect the Founders.

The Federation and its allies had already effectively won the war by mid-2375 militarily, before the effects of virus were affecting Dominion policy ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges").

What in that episode would suggest impending victory? I don't see such indications even in the level of self-congratulatory and perhaps self-deluded "conferencespeak", let alone in the objective sense. The only party really suggesting that the war is already over are the lying bastards from S31... With whom nobody seems to be in agreement, save for their lap dog Ross. And his honesty to the party line is suspect as well.

You and I are remembering the episode very differently. There are several key sequences in which all the characters accept as a given that a Federation Alliance victory has become inevitable, not the least of which being the scene where Sloan describes the post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant in which he expects the UFP and Romulans to compete, and, as several other posters have noted, while the Dominion possessed the capacity to give the Federation Alliance a pyrrhic victory, they did not have the capacity to defeat the Feds -- hence their retreat to Cardassia.

Well, I think that one important thing to keep in mind is that Section 31 only rarely acts; most of the time, things are resolved by Starfleet.

It's tough to judge how much S31 has acted, especially when considering Sloan's argument of the ends justifying the means, based off the number of lives they've saved.

Well, I think that Sloan himself seemed to be saying that Section 31 only rarely acts. Further, a reluctance to act in the vast majority of situations helps give us an explanation for how they've managed to keep their existence a secret for over 200 years.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it is not merely Section 31's methods that undermine the moral foundation of the Federation -- it's their very existence, which is unaccountable to the democratically-elected government.

Exactly. My attitude is similar to Julian's, in that to be judge, jury, and executioner is too much power for any one organization, no matter how it is justified.

Yeppers! They fundamentally undermine the principle of the rule of law.

And the third thing to keep in mind is that the moral progress of the Federation reflects the progress of more than just humanity, so it's inaccurate to refer primarily to World War III.

I suppose that was colored by my own personal belief that S31 is a rather xenophobic organization. I'm probably wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about any non-Terrans in the organization.

Well, we never saw any non-Humans in Section 31 canonically -- at least that we know of. It's entirely possible, for instance, that Sloan's two Section 31 heavies in "Inquisition" were both Betazoids, for instance.

The novels have established a number of non-Human Section 31 agents, including Vulcans, Andorians, and Ullians. My interpretation is that Section 31 probably is very xenophobic, but that their xenophobia is political, not biological: They hate and distrust non-Federates, not non-Humans.

It didn't to me, because I think if you're going to tell a story about how a society ought to function, you have to also tell stories about how a society ought not to function. To put it another way:

The Federation is supposed to be a nearly ideal liberal democracy. In that sense, we can view the Federation as being what real-life states such as the United States, United Kingdom, French Republic, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and more, wish to be like. And that's fine.

But if you're going to tell a truly meaningful story about the ideal liberal democracy, one of the things the honest storyteller has to acknowledge is how difficult it is for a society to live up to those ideals and how there are always going to be times when aspects of that society will seek to influence the rest of society into abandoning those ideals... and that sometimes, even a good society betrays its ideals because it is not perfect.

To me, stories about Section 31 are good because they're meaningful to my life. I live in a country that was founded on the fundamental principles of liberty and equality -- and in a country that had race-based slavery for the first century of its existence. I live in a country that helped set the standard for international human rights -- and I live in a country whose government has been betraying those standards since 9/11. I'm very aware of the difference between the ideals of the United States and the reality of United States, so, for me, stories about how a liberal democracy falls short of its ideals are meaningful. They help to place the real-life political situation into context.

I'd be fine with it if Starfleet denounced S31 as soon as they got wind of it. The problem is that they didn't. The established leaders who were aware of it helped to facilitate their actions by keeping their silence, sitting on their hands while S31 went around to do whatever it wanted, society be damned. In my eyes, that makes them every bit as much the villains as S31 is.

Well, see, to me, that's part of what makes it a good story. Because key leaders of the Federation Starfleet are just completely disregarding Federation principles, liberal democratic principles. That makes the story meaningful and relatable to me, because key leaders in my society have done that. The only thing that was missing from DS9, IMO -- and I think this only happened because the S31 arc was introduced too late into the series -- was the conclusion: How other leaders recognize the immorality of their supposed compatriots and act to restore the Federation's honor.

And, further, they help reaffirm my belief in the potential of liberal democracy to overcome those hurdles and to improve. To become, in the words of the United States Constitution, a more perfect Union. DS9 ended before it could really get around to this, but it's fairly obvious that at some point, Bashir and Company were going to take them down and re-affirm the fundamental ideals of the Federation.

I'd love to know where you picked up on this fairly obvious point. I sure did not see anything in the series that even hinted at this fact.

It was right there in the finale of the first episode Section 31 appeared in. Sisko orders Bashir to accept any future offers of "employment" from Mister Sloan so that they can infiltrate Section 31 and bring it down. The foreshadowing was obvious.

Actually, the Maquis represent something fundamentally different than the anarchy of breaking the rule of law: The Maquis are an attempt to establish an entirely new society and new rule of law. They're separatists -- they want to form their own Republic of Maquia or some such. Now, they may or may not also be terrorists in pursuing that objective. While you may not agree with their goal of sovereignty and independence, let's keep in mind that that's a very different thing than Section 31; the Maquis don't wish to be accountable to no one, they simply wish to be accountable to their own citizens instead of the larger Federation's. Section 31, on the other hand, as you rightfully noted, wishes to be accountable to no one and yet to have carte blanche to do whatever it wants at all times.

Every single time the Maquis were talked about, they were as Federation colonists. Not once did I ever hear them spoken of as a recognized separate government.

More specifically, they were talked about as Federation seperatists. Eddington in "For the Cause" even talked about how the only reason the Federation hated the Maquis so much was because "we left the Federation, and you can't stand that. No one leaves Paradise!"

The Federation clearly considers them rogue colonists and does not recognize their independence, but it's pretty clear that that was the Maquis goal.

However, they did not actually have a functioning government. Like the Palestinians today, they may not be Federates, but they don't have their own state, either. They never got their act together enough for that.

To be honest, I think the high morality of TNG was a mistake. It made the characters too perfect and dampened down on internal dramatic conflict, so they often had to create conflict externally. My favorite TNG moments, looking back, often came when their was infighting or disagreements among the crew or when a person was brought in that caused conflict-Shelby, Ro, Jellico, etc. I could relate to that much more. Yes, TNG/Trek is based in the future, but it was written by 20th century people for a 20th century audience. The characters from TOS and DS9 always felt more relatable to me because they did have flaws, they did argue a little bit more. I loved TNG, but the seemingly eternally happy crew thing didn't quite work for me.

Personally, I believed that to be the entire point of Star Trek, and the reason TNG is my favorite series. The "message" that I received and grew up with was that, in general, our human civilization had overcome the petty differences we face in our turbulent world today. They unified as a world, and in so doing proved to the galactic community that they were ready to start a new era in their social and scientific development.

Now granted, it's quite hard to overcome temptation and greed, but the message was that we had. If distention did arise, it could be dealt with internally in an organized, legislative, and if at all possible non-violent fashion.

Now along comes Section 31. A rogue organization, operating in secret since the birth of this "new era", going about doing exactly what we thought we had overcome, only instead of operating on a planetary scale, they are now open to act on a galactic scale. What's more, the UFP knows about it, and does nothing.

Well, hold on there. I don't think it's clear that the UFP in general, or even most of its key leaders know, about Section 31. We know from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" that Section 31 has allies within Starfleet Command that in mid-2375 are stonewalling inquiries into their existence and activities that Sisko files, and we know that Admiral Ross has sometimes worked with them. That's it. That's literally all we know.

We don't know that the Federation President knows about them. We don't know that the Federation Council knows about them. There's no indication that the Federation Supreme Court is aware of them. We definitely know that the vast majority of Federation citizens don't know about them. We know that most officers in the Federation Starfleet don't know about them. We don't know how many admirals in Command they have on their side.

I think it's absurd to indict the morality of an entire civilization of people on the basis of one criminal conspiracy, especially when it's not at all clear that a majority of leaders are in on it. Would you indict the morality of the entire United States, as a civilization, just because the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs has (for the sake of argument) Mafia ties?

In a nutshell, it may make for good storytelling; it may even make it more "real"; but I don't think it really had a place in Trek. The story should be about the problems of their century, not ours.

See, here's the thing. I don't think that you can actually do a story that presents genuine hope for the future if you don't do stories about our current problems. I don't think you could honestly tell a story about a better future if that future did not struggle with the problems we have today.

Because the problems that we have are not unique to our times. They're not things that we as a civilization will ever "grow out of." They're universal problems that EVERY society has to deal with, and they're always going to be present in a society dedicated to liberal democracy. There are always going to be times when good people falter, and there are always going to be times when a liberal democracy is tempted to behave in an illiberal manner out of a desire for a sense of security. That's not something that you grow out of -- that's human nature. Period. It would not be presenting hope for the future if you depicted a Federation that has no vices; it would be presenting a lie.

And I still have hope for the future and still think that the Federation presents a vision of hope for the future. Why? Because how do the typical Federates react when learning of Section 31's existence? They form their own conspiracy to bring it down! The show ends before that happens, but the novels have made it clear that that story is still ongoing.

Originally Posted by Sci:

Not true. In fact, the virus almost denied them their victory. The Federation and its allies had already effectively won the war by mid-2375 militarily, before the effects of virus were affecting Dominion policy ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"). The Dominion was beat fair and square, but because the Female Shapeshifter was bitter and vindictive over her race's impending extinction, she decided to order all Dominion troops to retreat to Cardassia Prime and then was ready to order the Dominion fleet to make the Allies fight for every square inch of the planet, which would have resulted in a pyrrhic victory for the Allies. Had she not had that virus, the situation would have remained the same; the Dominion would have been defeated in the Alpha Quadrant. But the Female Shapeshifter would have been much less vindictive because her race would not have been facing extinction, and she probably would have surrendered and ordered Dominion troops back to the Gamma Quadrant. Only the intervention of Odo in granting them the cure saved the Federation from such a devestating "victory."

I think you seriously missed the point of the virus.

No, I got the point of the virus. A bunch of cowards decided that they'd rather feel safe by committing genocide instead of investing resources in something that would have been much more logical and moral, like mining the Wormhole or asking the Wormhole Aliens/Prophets to bar transportation across the Wormhole (established to be within their capacity in "Emissary"). Nevermind that black ops programs like that historically always come back to bite their initiators in the ass (just look at Operation Ajax). No no no. We'll commit GENOCIDE! Then we'll be safe! Yep, taking down the Founders will make us safer, just like taking down Saddam Hussein made the United States safer in the early 21st Century!

all the Feds would have had to do is fight a delaying action to win the war as the Dominion would collapse from there.

And then rogue Dominion forces would have continued targeting them even as the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants both descended into chaos. The Alpha Quadrant would have faced a huge refugee crisis as people would be pouring in from the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassians would just appropriate Dominion technology and carry on the war themselves, the Klingon-Federation Alliance would be seriously strained if not torn asunder by their differing reactions to the situation, Dominion technology would fall into the hands of less powerful and unstable races like the Tzenkethi or the Talarians or the Kespryt, there would be nothing in place to stop the Cardassians or former Dominion forces from attacking Bajor....

All I see is a recipe for making the situation WORSE if you start talking about getting rid of the Founders.

Hardly. If anything, the virus would have made the situation worse; by removing the only element keeping control of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, the virus would have unleashed interstellar chaos across two quadrants if it had worked as planned.

Which means the Jem'Hadar kill each other...

Oh, yeah, it would just be that simple, wouldn't it? Just like it was that simple when we took down Saddam Hussein, right -- the Iraqis just started killing each other! No more American deaths for us!

Suddenly overthrowing an absolute dictatorship composed of conquered and hostile groups is NEVER a good idea. Wasn't a good idea in Iraq, wouldn't be a good idea in Trek.

Bullshit. Section 31's blowback nearly cost the Federation its survival.

I don't think Section 31 was the cause of the Dominion overruning the Alpha Quadrant.

Really? Who's to say that the Dominion didn't decide to invade at the beginning of "Call to Arms" because the Founders knew that someone had fucked with them?

And even if that's the case, that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to how much more devestated Starfleet would have been after being forced to fight for every square inch of Cardassia Prime against a vindictive Dominion that refuses to surrender because of its newly-fatalistic Founders -- so damaged that its ability to continue to enforce the peace in the Alpha Quadrant after the war would be significantly endangered in the face of the newly-resurgent Romulan Star Empire.

Hate to say it, but I think the genocidal disease was justified.

Really? What about infant Founders like Odo (before he was sent out) who were not part of the Dominion policy decisions made by the other members of the Great Link?

I mean, no one comes down on Admiral Janeway's little genocidal pathogen in Endgame. The annihilation of the Borg is perfectly fine! What's the difference?

The Borg are not a species. They're essentially a mind control mechanism; Janeway's pathogen did not kill the Borg as a species because there is no Borg species. Rather, it simply caused the collapse of the Collective Consciousness, the interstellar, technological mind control mechanism used to enslave many thousands of separate species.

 

[Renvar]

The only thing that was missing from DS9, IMO -- and I think this only happened because the S31 arc was introduced too late into the series -- was the conclusion: How other leaders recognize the immorality of their supposed compatriots and act to restore the Federation's honor.

Except that they didn't conclude it. They let it drift away for novelists to write about. (I do prefer to speak canonically, so I will disregard the books in my arguments.) And frankly, the fact that the Federation's leaders refused to do anything about it means that they either agree on some level with Section 31's agenda, or that S31 has ties so deep in the Federation that they have no choice but to capitulate. In either case we're dealing with corruption in a government that all this time was purported to be incorruptible. That is asynchronous with the original vision of Trek. It turns it from moving forward in our advancement to backward.

It was right there in the finale of the first episode Section 31 appeared in. Sisko orders Bashir to accept any future offers of "employment" from Mister Sloan so that they can infiltrate Section 31 and bring it down. The foreshadowing was obvious.

Oh yes, the genetically-engineered doctor whose total training in covert operations is from playing James Bond in the holosuite is going to take down a secret renegade organization that had been taking care of Federation threats since before he was born. Pretty sure he's going to do it with nothing but a hypospray, a rubber band, and a paper clip.

I think it's absurd to indict the morality of an entire civilization of people on the basis of one criminal conspiracy, especially when it's not at all clear that a majority of leaders are in on it. Would you indict the morality of the entire United States, as a civilization, just because the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs has (for the sake of argument) Mafia ties?

See my first paragraph for this. Since certain members of the Federation and Starfleet were covering for S31, it means that they had become corrupt. How many people in the government or military have to go rogue before a government can be called corrupt? Personally, I think that any member of Starfleet that covered for S31 is a corruption of the UFP. The fact that that corruption is left in place to fester instead of someone being able to expose it is what makes me consider that Section 31 has a lot more influence in the Federation than we think.

See, here's the thing. I don't think that you can actually do a story that presents genuine hope for the future if you don't do stories about our current problems. I don't think you could honestly tell a story about a better future if that future did not struggle with the problems we have today.

Because the problems that we have are not unique to our times. They're not things that we as a civilization will ever "grow out of." They're universal problems that EVERY society has to deal with, and they're always going to be present in a society dedicated to liberal democracy. There are always going to be times when good people falter, and there are always going to be times when a liberal democracy is tempted to behave in an illiberal manner out of a desire for a sense of security. That's not something that you grow out of -- that's human nature. Period. It would not be presenting hope for the future if you depicted a Federation that has no vices; it would be presenting a lie.

It is not a lie; it is a dream. Gene did not have the answers to world peace; if he did he probably would've shared them with us on his show. But he did like to think that somehow, we would surpass our human nature, that we would "grow out of it," as you say. That was his vision. Now, whether you agree with that is beside the point. My original question was if Section 31 stay true to the original themes of which Trek was created. The answer is no.

The Borg are not a species. They're essentially a mind control mechanism; Janeway's pathogen did not kill the Borg as a species because there is no Borg species. Rather, it simply caused the collapse of the Collective Consciousness, the interstellar, technological mind control mechanism used to enslave many thousands of separate species.

Oh pleeeeease don't open that can of gagh. Or at the very least, open another thread for it. There's enough controversy over that to fill 10 pages.

 

[Sci]

The only thing that was missing from DS9, IMO -- and I think this only happened because the S31 arc was introduced too late into the series -- was the conclusion: How other leaders recognize the immorality of their supposed compatriots and act to restore the Federation's honor.

Except that they didn't conclude it.

Yes, they didn't conclude it. There were a lot of loose ends that DS9 left, and that was one of them. I'm not happy about it, but creative intent is fairly obvious (Section 31's defeat at the hands of the DS9 crew), so I don't feel that that undermines Trek's vision of hope for the future.

They let it drift away for novelists to write about. (I do prefer to speak canonically, so I will disregard the books in my arguments.)

You should give the books a try. They're great. And, you might be interested to know that a recent book reveals that

Spoiler: The Good That Men Do by Michael A Martin and Andy Mangels

Section 31 has been exposed and brought to justice by the time of the early 25th Century

.

And frankly, the fact that the Federation's leaders refused to do anything about it means that they either agree on some level with Section 31's agenda, or that S31 has ties so deep in the Federation that they have no choice but to capitulate.

Or that S31 has been successful at hiding its existence from most of the leaders, with only a few key people being involved in actively covering them up. Or that most people simply cannot even believe that such an organization could exist in the Federation. Or....

In either case we're dealing with corruption in a government that all this time was purported to be incorruptible. That is asynchronous with the original vision of Trek.

Bullshit. At no point in TOS was the Federation described as having an incorruptible government. Heck, several important TOS episodes revolved around the idea of the Federation's institutions being somewhat corrupt -- "The Cloud Miners" revealed that a Federation Member State practiced slavery; "Court Martial" featured the Starfleet deciding unofficially that Kirk is guilty until proven innocent.

The original vision of Trek is not of a perfect future. It's of a better future. "We're killers.... But we won't kill today."

It was right there in the finale of the first episode Section 31 appeared in. Sisko orders Bashir to accept any future offers of "employment" from Mister Sloan so that they can infiltrate Section 31 and bring it down. The foreshadowing was obvious.

Oh yes, the genetically-engineered doctor whose total training in covert operations is from playing James Bond in the holosuite is going to take down a secret renegade organization that had been taking care of Federation threats since before he was born.

Congratulations -- you've discovered that one of the fundamental conceits of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is that no matter how big the threat, the main characters of that series will always be the ones who resolve the plot. That is a fundamental conceit of the one-hour dramatic television series -- that the series' main characters will be the ones who resolve the action and drive the plot. Whether you find it sufficiently believable is irrelevant. Just like it was a given in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part I" that the crew of the Enterprise would defeat the Borg later on, it's a given in "Inquisition" that the crew of Deep Space 9 will defeat Section 31 later on.

See my first paragraph for this. Since certain members of the Federation and Starfleet were covering for S31, it means that they had become corrupt.

Yes. TOS and TNG both established this to be true of Starfleet in the past. How many Evil Admirals or Crazy Commodores or Asshole Ambassadors did Our Heroes have to deal with? Starfleet and the Federation were never portrayed as being completely free of bad people.

How many people in the government or military have to go rogue before a government can be called corrupt?

I don't know. How many people in the government or military have to be good, adhere to the rule of law and liberal democracy, before a government can be called good and honest?

Are you really going to indict an entire society because of the actions of a small, albeit powerful, group of people?

Personally, I think that any member of Starfleet that covered for S31 is a corruption of the UFP.

That's a very extreme statement. Any society with even one corrupt official is just completely ruined and unworthy?

The fact that that corruption is left in place to fester instead of someone being able to expose it is what makes me consider that Section 31 has a lot more influence in the Federation than we think.

That's certainly possible. We don't know.

See, here's the thing. I don't think that you can actually do a story that presents genuine hope for the future if you don't do stories about our current problems. I don't think you could honestly tell a story about a better future if that future did not struggle with the problems we have today.

Because the problems that we have are not unique to our times. They're not things that we as a civilization will ever "grow out of." They're universal problems that EVERY society has to deal with, and they're always going to be present in a society dedicated to liberal democracy. There are always going to be times when good people falter, and there are always going to be times when a liberal democracy is tempted to behave in an illiberal manner out of a desire for a sense of security. That's not something that you grow out of -- that's human nature. Period. It would not be presenting hope for the future if you depicted a Federation that has no vices; it would be presenting a lie.

It is not a lie; it is a dream.

No. It's a lie. There is no such thing as perfection. There is no such thing as a society that will never have to deal with deviance, with criminality. That's because the source of criminality is also the source of things that are good and valuable in humanity. Remember Captain Kirk saying that he needs his pain? Remember the TOS episode where Kirk is split into a good half and an evil half, and Spock remarks that Kirk, like humanity, needs both sides?

Gene did not have the answers to world peace; if he did he probably would've shared them with us on his show. But he did like to think that somehow, we would surpass our human nature, that we would "grow out of it," as you say. That was his vision.

No, that became his vision. His original vision, displayed in TOS, was that humanity would learn to regulate its less admirable side in order to channel it to the service of good. Evil exists within us, and we have to be careful and control it, but we can still do good and be good. "We're killers, but we won't kill today."

Later on, Roddenberry became an absurd utopianist who believed in the so-called "perfectibility of man" -- nevermind that the concept of perfection is a meaningless idea that literally does not exist. Talking about the perfect human is like talking about the perfect angle or the perfect ratio; it's a nonsense phrase.

Now, whether you agree with that is beside the point. My original question was if Section 31 stay true to the original themes of which Trek was created. The answer is no.

Actually, the answer is Yes. TOS always did stories about the Federation facing problems similar to those of the contemporary United States. Heck, we had the Federation get involved in a miniature Vietnam War in "A Private Little War." The key was that the Federation would, at story's end, make the right decision (which the US did not always do).

That's why I have no problem with S31. Because the creative intent was that Section 31 would be defeated and traditional Federation values reaffirmed. That the writes ran out of time I do not hold against them.

 

[Jono]

And finally, didn't the Founder assume a ground war to finish off the Jem'Hadar, allowing for the massive pyrrhic victory? One might suggest that the Romulans (especially, but possibly the Klingons too) might just nuke them from orbit (figuratively speaking) if it got to that point...

One would think that the Federation would not allow that nor would their new Cardassian allies. We only know that 800 million were killed so there might be a very large population still alive and evacuating them would be close, if not impossible if we are taking about billions. To save those civilians they would need to deploy ground forces and irradiating weaponry would be restricted in use due to the risks to the population and the invading forces.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Originally Posted by Sci

No, I got the point of the virus. A bunch of cowards decided that they'd rather feel safe by committing genocide instead of investing resources in something that would have been much more logical and moral, like mining the Wormhole or asking the Wormhole Aliens/Prophets to bar transportation across the Wormhole (established to be within their capacity in "Emissary"). Nevermind that black ops programs like that historically always come back to bite their initiators in the ass (just look at Operation Ajax). No no no. We'll commit GENOCIDE! Then we'll be safe! Yep, taking down the Founders will make us safer, just like taking down Saddam Hussein made the United States safer in the early 21st Century!

Uhh... I believe they tried that one already! I also recall the last resort was to collapse the wormhole altogether in "In Purgatory's Shadow." Sure, you can ask the Prophets for help, but only Sisko could have done that... and his penance was to join the Prophets. Did you miss all of that?

That rules of war bullshit just doesn't work in Star Trek. Not when the Galaxy is filled with ruthless races that won't hesitate to wipe out entire planets and enslave entire worlds. That morality would have done the Federation little good as a conquered Dominion planet. I would much rather commit Genocide on a race that hates you with a passion and has an army filled with genetically engineered bloodthirsty killing machines then watch my entire race be enslaved. The Federation could not beat the Dominion... period. They had an enormous amount of help in dire situations to even have a chance.

And then rogue Dominion forces would have continued targeting them even as the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants both descended into chaos. The Alpha Quadrant would have faced a huge refugee crisis as people would be pouring in from the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassians would just appropriate Dominion technology and carry on the war themselves, the Klingon-Federation Alliance would be seriously strained if not torn asunder by their differing reactions to the situation, Dominion technology would fall into the hands of less powerful and unstable races like the Tzenkethi or the Talarians or the Kespryt, there would be nothing in place to stop the Cardassians or former Dominion forces from attacking Bajor....

All I see is a recipe for making the situation WORSE if you start talking about getting rid of the Founders.


Quote:
Quote:
Hardly. If anything, the virus would have made the situation worse; by removing the only element keeping control of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, the virus would have unleashed interstellar chaos across two quadrants if it had worked as planned.
Which means the Jem'Hadar kill each other...
Oh, yeah, it would just be that simple, wouldn't it? Just like it was that simple when we took down Saddam Hussein, right -- the Iraqis just started killing each other!

Actually it is... If you watched "The Ship" Jem'Hadar soldiers all committed suicide at the death of the Founders. It is documented on Memory Alpha that it is actually ritualistic... meaning all the Jem'Hadar in the Quadrant would commit suicide.

If I remember correctly... the Cardassians stood united with the Federation Alliance AGAINST the Jem'Hadar with no intention of continuing a war against the allies with a devastated homeworld. There was no way the would wage war against the combined forces of the Federation / Romulans / Klingons. Other less stable species have no part in the conflict... and I doubt they would wage war on a united alliance that is fully mobilized.

Whether you want to admit it or not... the virus did guarentee victory because of the genetic make-up and structure of the Dominion, which was Section 31s plan all along. Tactically, the Dominion had the edge and statistically would beat the Federation in every calculated scenario (as mentioned in Statstical Probabilities). As I've said over and over... the Prophets made victory obtainable... but the virus was the guarentee.

 

[Sci]

Originally Posted by Sci

No, I got the point of the virus. A bunch of cowards decided that they'd rather feel safe by committing genocide instead of investing resources in something that would have been much more logical and moral, like mining the Wormhole or asking the Wormhole Aliens/Prophets to bar transportation across the Wormhole (established to be within their capacity in "Emissary"). Nevermind that black ops programs like that historically always come back to bite their initiators in the ass (just look at Operation Ajax). No no no. We'll commit GENOCIDE! Then we'll be safe! Yep, taking down the Founders will make us safer, just like taking down Saddam Hussein made the United States safer in the early 21st Century!

Uhh... I believe they tried that one already! I also recall the last resort was to collapse the wormhole altogether in "In Purgatory's Shadow." Sure, you can ask the Prophets for help, but only Sisko could have done that... and his penance was to join the Prophets. Did you miss all of that?

No. Did you miss the part where the virus was developed years before Sisko asked the Prophets to bar the Dominion from traveling across the Wormhole? Or did you miss the fact that apparently no one brought up the idea of having Sisko just ask the Prophets for help before "The Sacrifice of Angels?" Or where no one thought of mining the Wormhole until "A Call to Arms?," again over a year after Section 31 introduced the virus -- forcing the engineers to work against a fairly major looming deadline of Dominion invasion?

Section 31, for all its supposed competence, didn't even try to undertake these much more logical endeavors that almost certainly would have worked better had they been undertaken further in advance than they actually were.

That rules of war bullshit just doesn't work in Star Trek. Not when the Galaxy is filled with ruthless races that won't hesitate to wipe out entire planets and enslave entire worlds.

What, you think the world today isn't filled with ruthless bastards who won't hesitate to wipe out or enslave entire populations? That it hasn't always been?

The rules of war are there in part because they actually help serve as a controlling mechanism on such bastards. Because even when monsters like that become very powerful, if they are surrounded by civilizations that are not like that, that have rules of war, guess what? They're more inclined NOT to behave so genocidally, for fear of their own security. The rules of war are amongst the most reliable forms of national defense anyone could imagine, far more so than unilateralist, every-man-for-himself defense policy.

I would much rather commit Genocide on a race that hates you with a passion and has an army filled with genetically engineered bloodthirsty killing machines then watch my entire race be enslaved. The Federation could not beat the Dominion... period. They had an enormous amount of help in dire situations to even have a chance.

Yes. The Federation had to ask for help from other races. Guess what? That's part of defense policy, too. Defense policy is not, "Set things up so that we can kick anyone's ass at any time without any help." Defense policy means using all of the resources you can reasonably use to defend yourself, including potential and current allies!

The Federation could not defeat the Dominion by itself, no. That's why it allied with the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire. That's why it got the unofficial support of Bajor. That's why they got help from the Prophets. And in the course of taking those steps, they won. The virus contributed nothing to the Federation victory and in fact besmirched Federation honour. Hell, it very nearly cost the Federation more lives than it would have saved -- only Odo's giving the Founders the cure kept that damn virus from leading the Female Shapeshifter to decide not to surrender when she was obviously going to lose.

And then rogue Dominion forces would have continued targeting them even as the Alpha and Gamma Quadrants both descended into chaos. The Alpha Quadrant would have faced a huge refugee crisis as people would be pouring in from the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassians would just appropriate Dominion technology and carry on the war themselves, the Klingon-Federation Alliance would be seriously strained if not torn asunder by their differing reactions to the situation, Dominion technology would fall into the hands of less powerful and unstable races like the Tzenkethi or the Talarians or the Kespryt, there would be nothing in place to stop the Cardassians or former Dominion forces from attacking Bajor....

All I see is a recipe for making the situation WORSE if you start talking about getting rid of the Founders.

Hardly. If anything, the virus would have made the situation worse; by removing the only element keeping control of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, the virus would have unleashed interstellar chaos across two quadrants if it had worked as planned.

Which means the Jem'Hadar kill each other...

Oh, yeah, it would just be that simple, wouldn't it? Just like it was that simple when we took down Saddam Hussein, right -- the Iraqis just started killing each other!

Actually it is... If you watched "The Ship" Jem'Hadar soldiers all committed suicide at the death of the Founders.[/quote]

Yes. And if you watch episodes like "One Little Ship," it becomes clear that Jem'Hadar are still composed of unique individuals who do not all behave alike. The fact that one batch of Jem'Hadar killed themselves upon the death of their Founder does not constitute an accurate predictor for the entire species by any means. In fact, we know that Jem'Hadar are composed of different factions with different attitudes towards the Founders, the Vorta, and each-other; it is completely irrational to presume that they would all behave the same or that there would not be power-hungry Jem'Hadar and Vorta amongst the post-Founder Dominion who would seek to take advantage of the situation for themselves.

If I remember correctly... the Cardassians stood united with the Federation Alliance AGAINST the Jem'Hadar with no intention of continuing a war against the allies with a devastated homeworld.

Yeah, as long as the Dominion was targeting the Cardassian species. But if the Founders had died as intended, what reason would the Cardassians have had not to continue the war themselves? I mean, other than that they had already been defeated along with the rest of the Dominion through conventional military means -- you know, like you keep insisting would not have happened.

Well, let's play that game. Let's presume that the Federation Alliance would not have been able to defeat the Dominion through conventional means (even though they obviously were) and that only the genocide of the Founders would have incapacitated the Dominion. What would have happened? The Cardassians would have turned on the Dominion AND the Federation, obviously. Again, not a better outcome.

All this to say nothing of the fact that the Female Shapeshifter only ordered genocide against the Cardassians because of her unstable emotional state as a result of her race's impending extinction. At least 800 million Cardassian civilians were murdered because of Section 31's virus.

There was no way the would wage war against the combined forces of the Federation / Romulans / Klingons.

Of course they would if they could. The Cardassian government a the time was INTENSELY expansionistic and hostile to the Feds. They'd almost certainly seek to exploit the tensions between the Feds, Klingons, and Romulans over proper response to the new Dominion civil war to sunder the Alliance before moving in against the Feds.

Other less stable species have no part in the conflict...

Not yet. Once one of them gets their hands on major Dominion technology? Even if they don't become major powers, that doesn't stop them from becoming an asymmetrical security threat. Afghanistan didn't have major part to play in international politics until they got their hands on advanced US weaponry during the Cold War, let's recall; history is full of minor powers suddenly becoming important players because the big boys leave their toys lying about and then try to use them as proxies.

and I doubt they would wage war on a united alliance that is fully mobilized.

Who needs to wage war? All they need to do is go to war against a neighbor and trigger a gigantic refugee crisis, or launch a limited attack on one Federation Member State that they have some territorial conflict with. It doesn't even matter if they'd win in the long run, because the problem is that they might well act in ways that's not conducive to their own self-interests.

Whether you want to admit it or not... the virus did guarentee victory because of the genetic make-up and structure of the Dominion, which was Section 31s plan all along.

No, it didn't. It contributed nothing to the actual military victory, and its implementation would have been a recipe for interstellar chaos, as any student of real history could tell you.

 

[SoM]

And finally, didn't the Founder assume a ground war to finish off the Jem'Hadar, allowing for the massive pyrrhic victory? One might suggest that the Romulans (especially, but possibly the Klingons too) might just nuke them from orbit (figuratively speaking) if it got to that point...

One would think that the Federation would not allow that nor would their new Cardassian allies. We only know that 800 million were killed so there might be a very large population still alive and evacuating them would be close, if not impossible if we are taking about billions. To save those civilians they would need to deploy ground forces and irradiating weaponry would be restricted in use due to the risks to the population and the invading forces.

I'm sure the Feds would be very unhappy about it, by policy. But look at it from an ultra-pragmatic viewpoint (i.e., in terms only of gains and losses; not of right & wrong. The Romulan viewpoint) for a moment. At this point, Cardassia-Prime is no prize for anyone - even with the Dominion's capitulation after the Female Shapeshifter is cured, it'll take decades for it to be truly viable again. No-one likes the Cardassians - the Klingons and Feds have both fought wars with them, the Klingons in very recent memory - and there are millions of Jem'Hadar on the planet who'll fight to the last in a ground war, resulting in a massive pyrrhic victory at best for anyone who cares to engage in it.

So what do you do once the Dominion spaceships have finally been routed at great cost? Follow through at yet greater cost to win a prize that only carries costs, leave the enemy there to regroup, or lock disruptors and plasma torpedoes on the planet and effectively destroy it, as the Tal Shiar planned to do to the Founders' planet in The Die Is Cast and Garak tried to use the Defiant to do to the Founders' New Planet in Broken Link? Unconscionable, perhaps, but the safest option.

 

[Jono]

^ It is still the homeworld of the Cardassian people and it matters to them and the Cardassians have sided with the Federation Alliance. The Cardassian people are rebelling and the world is one to be liberated at that point.

The Female Changeling was not the only person that thought it would come down to a ground campaign, Ross said as much when he was discussing the projected losses with Sisko. I'm sure they would use orbital bombardments, just not with the intent of depopulating the entire world.

Plus if they really wanted to go easy they could just blow up the star in the Cardassian system and let it do the bulk of the work for them.

 

[Sisko4Life]

I'm all for the disease against the Founders because they were such an threat and defeat was imminent, but that is where you draw the line. Bombarding the homeworld of the Cardassians is just out of the question. At that point, the Cardassians were considered allies and Damar made every effort to thank the Federation. Since he died as a martyr, I doubt the Cardassians would dishonor him like that by betraying the Federation (not to mention the allied fleet would easily wipe them out). Destroying the Cardassian homeworld would NEVER be allowed by the Federation because it endangers millions of citizens. Ross mentioned that there would be a massive ground war... and no doubt the Cardassians would lead the fight.

 

[Jono]

Also have to question if the Klingons would go for an orbital bombardment. They are all about the tough fight. The chance to land warriors to fight with bat'leths against hordes of Jem'Hadar...sounds a bit like a Klingon's wet dream.