Moon-walker claims alien contact cover-up

[zenophite]

The reason I know this alien stuff is nonsense is my experience as a young lad on Air Force bases. My father was career Air Force and I grew up on Air Force bases around the world. One thing I found out is secrets are not very secret.

The men in the Air Force keep secrets but often let it slip to their wives, and their wives talk to each other. You wouldn't believe the things I found out while listening to my mother gossip with other women in a laundry rooms, over coffee, etc.

If aliens fell from the sky on an Army base I have no doubt some men would have told their wives, they would talked to each other, and it would be common knowledge now.

Again there are secrets and then there are secrets. By definition we can only evaluate secrets that have been "leaked". I have heard enough stories about the men that kept secrets to their grave and that there were things that they would not talk about to their dying day even to family.

If such a thing existed as alien visitation I would imagine that the universe of people involved would be very small - making the truth very difficult to penetrate.

I have know several vets of foreign wars and many of them are not very willing to talk about their experience, even to a young vet like me (though granted not a combat vet)
I can see that being involved with aliens would be a very earthshaking experience - even traumatic in some ways I would imagine. that is plenty reason to keep things quiet.

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret! they have been attested to by dozens if not hundreds of entirely credible people - some holding high offices or government positions. It's just that they are ridiculed out of hand by smarter-than-thou type people who try to act like enlightened intellectuals.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Most will not believe until someone who currently serves in a high position of authority, and has a great deal to lose, makes a proclamation that alien life exists. For example, if the president of the United States makes such a proclamation, a great deal of people will seriously consider it. Why? Because there are likely only two reasons he would make such a claim. Either he has lost his mind or he is telling the truth, because he has a great deal to lose by doing so. If Ethel from Bugtussle says she has seen aliens, it's unlikely anyone will take notice of her, even if she's telling the truth, because, in the grand scheme of things, her proclamation doesn't carry any weight and she risks very little, except her own reputation.

 

[Brolan]

The reason I know this alien stuff is nonsense is my experience as a young lad on Air Force bases. My father was career Air Force and I grew up on Air Force bases around the world. One thing I found out is secrets are not very secret.

The men in the Air Force keep secrets but often let it slip to their wives, and their wives talk to each other. You wouldn't believe the things I found out while listening to my mother gossip with other women in a laundry rooms, over coffee, etc.

If aliens fell from the sky on an Army base I have no doubt some men would have told their wives, they would talked to each other, and it would be common knowledge now.

Again there are secrets and then there are secrets. By definition we can only evaluate secrets that have been "leaked". I have heard enough stories about the men that kept secrets to their grave and that there were things that they would not talk about to their dying day even to family.

If such a thing existed as alien visitation I would imagine that the universe of people involved would be very small - making the truth very difficult to penetrate.

I have know several vets of foreign wars and many of them are not very willing to talk about their experience, even to a young vet like me (though granted not a combat vet)
I can see that being involved with aliens would be a very earthshaking experience - even traumatic in some ways I would imagine. that is plenty reason to keep things quiet.

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret! they have been attested to by dozens if not hundreds of entirely credible people - some holding high offices or government positions. It's just that they are ridiculed out of hand by smarter-than-thou type people who try to act like enlightened intellectuals.

Certainly there are men who keep secrets to the grave. But not all men do. The shock of the discovery of aliens would be the reason some men tell their wives. They would need someone to talk to about it and their wives are a logical choice.

 

[zenophite]

Certainly there are men who keep secrets to the grave. But not all men do. The shock of the discovery of aliens would be the reason some men tell their wives. They would need someone to talk to about it and their wives are a logical choice.

Indeed, that's why we have guys like Maj. Jesse Marcel, Col. Philip Corso and others.

 

[Meredith]

The truth is that diminutive big headed human like creatures have been depicted for a long time even prior to many of these accounts - for example look at the wanjinas - sacred images of the Australian aborigines:

http://broomecamshop.com/images/ImagesOfPower.jpg

But how would the Hills have been exposed to that??????

No I think you missed my point. Since these depictions are so much older and not limited to the western mind particularly, I think it seems more indicative that these alien visitations or whatever they are might be more than just the fanciful imaginings of a few attention hungry lunatics. The Hills likely would not have been exposed to this sort of thing.

Interestingly from what I have heard they also stated that they saw at least one person in what seemed like Nazi uniforms. On the surface this may seem like the fodder of ST:Enterprise "alien-nazi" jokes but think about it seriously for a second.

In the 1950's nobody would have been aware of operation paperclip and the great extent to which the US government collaborated with nazi scientists and war criminals for the sake of technological development - in fact many of documents of that period are still classified. Would she add one more element that is so disjoint from the rest of her experience?

I blame exposure to sentient dinosaur descendants.

 

[scotthm]

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret!

You're right. They are a myth.

---------------

 

[zenophite]

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret!

You're right. They are a myth.

---------------

Not until they can be proven to be a myth with something other than intellectual arrogance. Until then I'm content to consider it an unresolved mystery as to what exactly are the nature of UFOs

 

[Zachary Smith]

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret!

You're right. They are a myth.

---------------

What I find constantly amazing is that the idea that alien beings may have visited the Earth is, to some people, so automatically, unfailingly and irretrieveably inconceivable. I mean, it is not even without precedent that intelligent beings from another world have visited another celestial body--please, NO one start on the moon-hoax debate; I'm REALLY not interested in that.

I could see someone stating they thought it unlikely, or even that it is impossible based on our current understanding of the universe and how it works (remembering to recall the differences between what we understood 200 years ago and what we MIGHT understand 200 years from now) for alien beings to travel from there to here. However, to dismiss consideration of the very concept with the absolute claim that it is simply "myth" does carry a note of being arrogantly presumptuous. Unless of course, you have some privilaged knowledge that the rest of us don't have. If so, please share.

 

[Bill Morris]

Okay, let me put on my thinking sombrero.

1. You might assume that on some planets orbiting other stars there are probably civilzations that are centuries ahead of us technologically yet unable to achieve intersteller travel, because you believe it's impossible, and on that basis you might feel safe dismissing the possibility of real UFOs. But then you have to also assume that mankind will never be able to even send nearly sentient robots to other star systems and receive data from them. Oops.

2. Granted, secrets are hard to keep. But what if government people only think there are UFOs and cover that up with limited success but have no hard evidence, in a scenario in which there are indeed real alien craft up there that are extremely reliable and rarely crash, manned by sophisticated robots allowed to tease but with orders to self-destruct if necessary rather than violate the Prime Directive, while their builders sit back and watch us on TV, able to smugly avoid first contact until our robots arrive at their planet? I'm not claiming there are. That's merely a what-if where a cover-up could conceivably work, largely because people who know aren't quite sure.

3. If you really believe in UFOs and want to blow the lid off a cover-up, one possibility is to attend a Shuttle launch and watch the skies for UFOs. If they exist, they'll be there. If you spot something undeniable, make enough noise to get CNN to train a camera on it and put it on live TV.

 

[TerriO]

Still the thing that gets me about all these "government can't keep secrets" arguments is that UFO's and Aliens aren't a secret!

You're right. They are a myth.

---------------

We might want to be careful how we throw around the word "myth." Many people even today believe things others might consider myths.

Granted, the origin of myth is another side-subject entirely. However, it can be argued that any belief structure on this planet, even the belief in extra-terrestrials, has an element of mythology to it.

 

[Deckerd]

TerriO you sound as though you're saying UFO/alien sightings are akin to religious experiences?

 

[TerriO]

TerriO you sound as though you're saying UFO/alien sightings are akin to religious experiences?

No, I'm actually going a bit bigger here. I'm going for the basic concept of human belief and how it relates to mythology. (Kind of an anthropological bend to the thread, to bring science into my train of thought.)

Belief in something is belief in something, whether it be religion, the existence of aliens, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus. And mythology tends to grow around all of those. We now consider the Greek gods to be the stuff of myth, but they were once worshipped as every current religion on Earth worships their deity(ies) of choice. In the future, our UFO sighting stories might be considered in the same vein as Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Just because we may consider something a myth doesn't belie the existence of True Believers. The word "myth" means many things to many people, but I have yet to see a connotation of it that doesn't somehow make a "myth" out to anything other than fictitious. And telling someone that something they have a belief in is fictitious tends to get you into trouble. I mean, imagine telling the Pope that the Bible is a book of myth, and you get where I'm going here. There are people out there who treat alien abductions as seriously as many Christians treat their own faith.

The power of belief is tremendous, no matter what it is you believe in.

 

[Nerdius Maximus]

I thought this thread was going to be about Michael Jackson.

 

[Meredith]

I wonder how well this guy get along with the people who think we never landed on the moon.

 

[zenophite]

I wonder how well this guy get along with the people who think we never landed on the moon.

This is another example of the simple minded tendency for people to broad-brush various people who talk about things they personally find distasteful or unbelievable as a way of trying to discredit their statements by associating them with others who talk about unrelated things. This sort of reminds me of the questions asked exclusively to Ron Paul about the 911 conspiracy during the debates as a way to associate him with some loony-toon fringe to try to marginalize what he was saying about this country.

So, Meredith I'll answer your question with a question- since Ed Mitchell actually did walk on the moon what do you think his response might be to people who say the moon landings never happened?


As to the myth question discussed above... I think people fail to distinguish the different types of people that discuss UFO's and possible alien contact. Certainly there are plenty of cultish people and others looking to aliens as semi-religious saviour figures. This sort of belief is indeed somewhat religious in nature.

Now there are others such as myself who simply believe that it may be possible in the grand scheme of things that alien visitation either currently or in the past might be/have been possible and that their motives may or may not make sense to us. Why?

1) the scientific establishment has not reached the limits of understanding the universe.
2) it seems reasonable that in the vastness of space there are other planets capable of supporting life in a form either familiar or unfamiliar to us.
3) if we accept the above premise, then even if a very tiny fraction of these planets actually supports life there would be a large number of life supporting planets out there.
4) following from the above it also seems reasonable that at least a fraction of these might also contain some form of intelligent life.
5) if there are intelligent civilizations out there then it also seems reasonable that these civilizations might be developing at different times and different rates such that while some may be beneath our level of progress others might be quite above it.
6) since we have establish that it is at least possible that advanced civilizations might exist then they might also have the means to travel in ways we do not presently understand and specifically to visit this world.

run of the mill science seems to be mostly ok with most of points 1 through 5 (except for the idea that they might know stuff we don't, apparently) but it seems that these same science types ridicule point 6 out of hand when there is really just as much speculation going on as with the other points.

 

[Zachary Smith]

TerriO you sound as though you're saying UFO/alien sightings are akin to religious experiences?

No, I'm actually going a bit bigger here. I'm going for the basic concept of human belief and how it relates to mythology. (Kind of an anthropological bend to the thread, to bring science into my train of thought.)

Belief in something is belief in something, whether it be religion, the existence of aliens, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus. And mythology tends to grow around all of those. We now consider the Greek gods to be the stuff of myth, but they were once worshipped as every current religion on Earth worships their deity(ies) of choice. In the future, our UFO sighting stories might be considered in the same vein as Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Just because we may consider something a myth doesn't belie the existence of True Believers. The word "myth" means many things to many people, but I have yet to see a connotation of it that doesn't somehow make a "myth" out to anything other than fictitious. And telling someone that something they have a belief in is fictitious tends to get you into trouble. I mean, imagine telling the Pope that the Bible is a book of myth, and you get where I'm going here. There are people out there who treat alien abductions as seriously as many Christians treat their own faith.

The power of belief is tremendous, no matter what it is you believe in.

A key difference is PRECENDENT. Gods, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny etc-- all "magical beings"--are unprecedented. Intelligent life in the universe is NOT unprecedented. Intelligent beings travelling from one world to another is NOT unprecedented. It HAS already happened and therefore no one is aske to perform any leap of FAITH when it is suggested intelligent beings may travel to other worlds. We are NOT creating a new "reality" out of whole cloth in the way that is necessary when one claims "God" (or multiple "gods" ). It may or may NOT be possible for "God" to exist. We don't know because NO EXAMPLE has ever been demonstrated.

Clearly, there has been an example of intelligent life existing in the universe. Clearly that life can and has traveled to another celestial body and will likely expand even further into the universe. Therefore it requires no "faith" to suggest it is possible. It IS possible. The question is, "has it happened more than once". Suggesting intelligent aliens might exist elsewhere in the universe and may have visitied or are visiting the earth does not require adding or subtracting ANYTHING from what is KNOWN to be possible in the universe and this is precisely where the proposal differs fundamentally from the idea of "God" or other religious or magical beliefs.

 

[Oso Blanco]

For example, if the president of the United States makes such a proclamation, a great deal of people will seriously consider it.

Yeah, if that president wasn't George W. Bush ... maybe they would.

 

[Oso Blanco]

A key difference is PRECENDENT. Gods, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny etc-- all "magical beings"--are unprecedented. Intelligent life in the universe is NOT unprecedented. Intelligent beings travelling from one world to another is NOT unprecedented. It HAS already happened and therefore no one is aske to perform any leap of FAITH when it is suggested intelligent beings may travel to other worlds. We are NOT creating a new "reality" out of whole cloth in the way that is necessary when one claims "God" (or multiple "gods" ). It may or may NOT be possible for "God" to exist. We don't know because NO EXAMPLE has ever been demonstrated.

Clearly, there has been an example of intelligent life existing in the universe. Clearly that life can and has traveled to another celestial body and will likely expand even further into the universe. Therefore it requires no "faith" to suggest it is possible. It IS possible. The question is, "has it happened more than once". Suggesting intelligent aliens might exist elsewhere in the universe and may have visitied or are visiting the earth does not require adding or subtracting ANYTHING from what is KNOWN to be possible in the universe and this is precisely where the proposal differs fundamentally from the idea of "God" or other religious or magical beliefs.

Well said ...

 

[TerriO]

A key difference is PRECENDENT. Gods, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny etc-- all "magical beings"--are unprecedented. Intelligent life in the universe is NOT unprecedented. Intelligent beings travelling from one world to another is NOT unprecedented. It HAS already happened and therefore no one is aske to perform any leap of FAITH when it is suggested intelligent beings may travel to other worlds. We are NOT creating a new "reality" out of whole cloth in the way that is necessary when one claims "God" (or multiple "gods" ). It may or may NOT be possible for "God" to exist. We don't know because NO EXAMPLE has ever been demonstrated.

I take it you're using our missions to other planets to back up the "intelligent beings may travel to other worlds." We're talking beings outside of us, not us. It would take a being a lot smarter than the average rocket scientist to harness the powers necessary to cross that kind of space.

Clearly, there has been an example of intelligent life existing in the universe. Clearly that life can and has traveled to another celestial body and will likely expand even further into the universe. Therefore it requires no "faith" to suggest it is possible. It IS possible. The question is, "has it happened more than once".

I'll grant that point. However, I'll also add that it takes some form of belief (not necessarily "faith" in the religious sense, but belief) to accept the idea that it has happened more than once. And that's the ultimate topic. Has it happened more than once? Was there a second Genesis somewhere else in the universe? Some people are strident believers in that, but some call it nothing but myth.

Suggesting intelligent aliens might exist elsewhere in the universe and may have visitied or are visiting the earth does not require adding or subtracting ANYTHING from what is KNOWN to be possible in the universe and this is precisely where the proposal differs fundamentally from the idea of "God" or other religious or magical beliefs.

Here, I'd actually disagree. I think it does require adding to what is known to be possible, because for the things that people believe have happened regarding alien life forms, it's going to require science that we can barely imagine, let alone achieve, to make it happen even for us. It requires belief in the notion that we aren't the most advanced race in the universe. (Something that's difficult for a lot of humans to accept.) Beyond that, it requires belief in the notion that we aren't the only race in the universe. Neither of those are known to be true or or false at this time. Please pardon me, those of the faith, but just like the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being. We have to be able to add the notion that we aren't the only intelligent life in this universe into our matrix and assimilate it. But right now, the only evidence we have to go on is belief.

Yeah, it's easier for us to believe and rationalize that there are other races out there waiting for us to find them, but we've also spent good portions of our lives in science fiction dealing with the concept of alien life. Not everyone in this world has had that luxury of thought.

 

[zenophite]

I take it you're using our missions to other planets to back up the "intelligent beings may travel to other worlds." We're talking beings outside of us, not us. It would take a being a lot smarter than the average rocket scientist to harness the powers necessary to cross that kind of space.

Granted crossing interstellar distances takes some doing but you are projecting somewhat our own priorities and preconceptions onto some as yet unknown race. What if they choose to explore using the generational spaceship model? certainly such a thing is feasible with the level of technology we have today if it was made a priority of some kind.

I'll grant that point. However, I'll also add that it takes some form of belief (not necessarily "faith" in the religious sense, but belief) to accept the idea that it has happened more than once. And that's the ultimate topic. Has it happened more than once? Was there a second Genesis somewhere else in the universe? Some people are strident believers in that, but some call it nothing but myth.

Indeed. There is nothing to indicate that there actually is any life elsewhere in the universe other than some folk's belief that if we take for granted the fact that earth is not some special case then it seem reasonable to assume earthlike conditions exist elsewhere. still it doesn't amount to much more than a guess.