So, I liked Before Dishonor...

[historypeats]

As for those of you who complain about the overuse of the Borg...how do you stand the Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Founders, all of whom have been a) "normalized" throughout time (their menace fading as we learn more about them - just like real life!!!) and b) featured in more episodes and books? Yes, we had two books out of three that concerned the Borg, and the David book's plot was similar (at first) to Dilliard's, but that's really not a big deal - and the Borg aren't fundamentally boring. I don't see the big deal.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

As for those of you who complain about the overuse of the Borg...how do you stand the Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Founders, all of whom have been a) "normalized" throughout time (their menace fading as we learn more about them - just like real life!!!) and b) featured in more episodes and books? Yes, we had two books out of three that concerned the Borg, and the David book's plot was similar (at first) to Dilliard's, but that's really not a big deal - and the Borg aren't fundamentally boring. I don't see the big deal.

The Borg aren't fundamentally boring, they've developed that way. All the other species you mentioned aren't like the Borg-IE, you can write them with more variation and integrate real personalities and characteristics into them. You can keep them interesting because each species, even the Jem'Hadar and Founders, aren't monolithic.

The Borg are supposed to be monolithic. Indeed, it is the lack of personality and individualism of the Borg that we are supposed to fear. However, it is that aspect of them that prevents them from really being interesting. There are only so many ways to write a monolithic species like the Borg.

And really, how many people, without reading the end of the story, knew that the crew of the Enterprise (or more specifically, Picard and the senior staff) would defeat them in some way? How many people expected things to get uncomfortably close to the end before the day is saved? It's like The Best of Both Worlds, only without the originality and brilliance of that episode. Q Who was good because the Borg weren't defeated, and we knew they were coming back. The Best of Both Worlds was good because of the sheer damage the Borg caused, but in the end they were defeated. After that...what? We got I, Borg, an episode about individuality and morality (plus it wouldn't do to kill off "teh bestest villan evur!!11!!"). Descent took the individuality aspect of the previous one, threw in Data's psychotic "brother" and psychotic Borg, and gave us another "Data taken over by outside influence" episode. After that we had Voyager and their constant defeating of the Borg, First Contact and Picard defeating the Borg Queen...and, although I mentioned Voyager not too long ago, we had Endgame and the "neurolytic pathogen, bringing chaos to order". Are they dead?

The answer, sadly, is no.

To quote Austin Powers (The Spy Who Shagged Me)-"WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!"

It's gotten to the point where the Borg are really more tedious than anything. It's not like with the Klingons, or Romulans, or Ferengi, or Dominion, or Cardassians, where you defeat them and then later turn them into allies or at least non-enemies. You can reason and negotiate with them. With the Borg, negotiation and reason are futile. And now apparently "assimilation for upgrades sake" is out of the picture. Now it's "Crazy psychotic Borg!", almost like Descent but not isolated.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I care about Pluto. I found it to be the most shocking death in Before Dishonor.

It made Mickey and Goofy sad, too.

 

[JoeZhang]

I

As for the Janeway thing...eh. The problem with the Q is that they're (theoretically) omnipotent. They can basically do whatever the hell they want, and if Q (de Lancie version) wanted to save Janeway, he could have done so easily. The fact that he didn't - or, more realistically, that David didn't allow him to do so - indicates to me that a) Janeway's death was "necessary," b) that larger things are therefore in store for her, and c) that this must have been mandated from on high, since the assimilation doesn't make any sense to me in its current context. (I don't know anything about the Destiny trilogy, since I avoid spoilers like the plague.)

Lady Q wasn't it? It's a cheap move away - it just screams "don't worry! this doesn't mean shit!"

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yes, it was Lady Q.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm another one that liked Before Dishonor--the only thing that I did have trouble with was the destruction of Pluto. I don't care if it's not officially listed as a planet, but getting rid of it was akin to getting rid of Mars or Saturn, IMO...that's gonna have long-lasting consequences and I think it's going to be retconned in some way by future writers. I'm really kind of neutral about Janeway "pulling a Sisko" and taking a trip with a higher power beyond this mortal coil, but I'm more curious about how this will impact future VOY novels and whether or not this is only a relatively temporary situation.

But overall, I've liked the TNG Relaunch so far and the introduction of new characters to Picard's crew that don't necessarily worship the very air he breathes. But I do think three books with the Borg is enough, though...

 

[Trent Roman]

I'm another one that liked Before Dishonor--the only thing that I did have trouble with was the destruction of Pluto. I don't care if it's not officially listed as a planet, but getting rid of it was akin to getting rid of Mars or Saturn, IMO...that's gonna have long-lasting consequences and I think it's going to be retconned in some way by future writers.

Why? It's a frozen, useless hunk of rock in the boondocks of the solar system. I can't offhand think of any time when Pluto has ever been of relevance in the Trek universe. Maybe someone with greater astronomical knowledge could speak to any potential gravitational consequences of losing Pluto/Charon, but I doubt they would be significant.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm another one that liked Before Dishonor--the only thing that I did have trouble with was the destruction of Pluto. I don't care if it's not officially listed as a planet, but getting rid of it was akin to getting rid of Mars or Saturn, IMO...

How did you feel during "V: The Series" when Diana ordered the destruction of Io?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm another one that liked Before Dishonor--the only thing that I did have trouble with was the destruction of Pluto. I don't care if it's not officially listed as a planet, but getting rid of it was akin to getting rid of Mars or Saturn, IMO...that's gonna have long-lasting consequences and I think it's going to be retconned in some way by future writers.

Why? It's a frozen, useless hunk of rock in the boondocks of the solar system.

Well, I already said I didn't care of its planetary status. David physically rearranged the Sol System permanantly in this story--he might as well have gotten rid of other planets and moons in our system while he was at it...

I can't offhand think of any time when Pluto has ever been of relevance in the Trek universe.

It was where the Enterprise-B was originally headed in Generations.

I guess we better be thankful that live-action Trek stopped at Nemesis. I'd hate to think what would happen if Pluto was mentioned in any future production as still being around in the 25th-Century...

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm another one that liked Before Dishonor--the only thing that I did have trouble with was the destruction of Pluto. I don't care if it's not officially listed as a planet, but getting rid of it was akin to getting rid of Mars or Saturn, IMO...

How did you feel during "V: The Series" when Diana ordered the destruction of Io?

Thankfully, I didn't see that series.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'd hate to think what would happen if Pluto was mentioned in any future production as still being around in the 25th-Century...

The Borg cough it back up like a giant furball.

 

[Christopher]

Why? It's a frozen, useless hunk of rock in the boondocks of the solar system.

Well, I already said I didn't care of its planetary status. David physically rearranged the Sol System permanantly in this story--he might as well have gotten rid of other planets and moons in our system while he was at it...

It's now understood that Pluto is simply a large trans-Neptunian object in the Kuiper Belt. We've catalogued maybe 2% of trans-Neptunian objects and we've already found one, Eris, that's bigger than Pluto, and two others that are more than a quarter of its mass. By the 24th century, we'll probably be aware of dozens of Pluto-sized or larger bodies beyond Neptune. Pluto is to the Kuiper Belt what Ceres is to the Main Asteroid Belt -- the first known of its group, but just one of millions of bodies. And unlike Ceres, it's not the largest of its category. So its destruction wouldn't be that radical a change in the Solar system.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Why? It's a frozen, useless hunk of rock in the boondocks of the solar system.

Well, I already said I didn't care of its planetary status. David physically rearranged the Sol System permanantly in this story--he might as well have gotten rid of other planets and moons in our system while he was at it...

It's now understood that Pluto is simply a large trans-Neptunian object in the Kuiper Belt. We've catalogued maybe 2% of trans-Neptunian objects and we've already found one, Eris, that's bigger than Pluto, and two others that are more than a quarter of its mass. By the 24th century, we'll probably be aware of dozens of Pluto-sized or larger bodies beyond Neptune. Pluto is to the Kuiper Belt what Ceres is to the Main Asteroid Belt -- the first known of its group, but just one of millions of bodies. And unlike Ceres, it's not the largest of its category. So its destruction wouldn't be that radical a change in the Solar system.

The Borg should've stopped playing around, just destroyed Earth, and simply got it all over with.

The end.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'd hate to think what would happen if Pluto was mentioned in any future production as still being around in the 25th-Century...

The Borg cough it back up like a giant furball.

Awfully messy--not to mention gross...

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Well, I already said I didn't care of its planetary status. David physically rearranged the Sol System permanantly in this story--he might as well have gotten rid of other planets and moons in our system while he was at it...

It's now understood that Pluto is simply a large trans-Neptunian object in the Kuiper Belt. We've catalogued maybe 2% of trans-Neptunian objects and we've already found one, Eris, that's bigger than Pluto, and two others that are more than a quarter of its mass. By the 24th century, we'll probably be aware of dozens of Pluto-sized or larger bodies beyond Neptune. Pluto is to the Kuiper Belt what Ceres is to the Main Asteroid Belt -- the first known of its group, but just one of millions of bodies. And unlike Ceres, it's not the largest of its category. So its destruction wouldn't be that radical a change in the Solar system.

The Borg should've stopped playing around, just destroyed Earth, and simply got it all over with.

The end.

It would have denied us the chance to find out that the psychotic Borg in Before Dishonor and Resistance were Not Your TNG Season 2 Borg. It showed us that they were Definitely The Novel's Villain, and that They Meant Business. No more of this pussyfooting Borg, doing things piecemeal. Nope. Send the Mother-Of-All Borg Cubes to Earth (pausing for a quick *urp* snack in Sector 108) straight to Earth and Sector 001. Oh, and give it the ability to create mini-Cubes. Also, it ties into them no longer doing things to adapt. I mean, if literally tearing apart a security team doesn't show that, then the absorption of Pluto for no real reason beyond gaining mass and size (if not also Because They Could and Because It Was Teh Terafieeng!!11!!) certainly underlines it.

 

[nx1701g]

I didn't have many problems with the novel up until the destruction of Pluto and the absorbtion of starships. I mean I couldn't find the Borg threatening when I was reading the book and picturing the Borg Cube eating a planet like it was dinner.

I wonder what wine goes with Planet? What about Starship or Warp Core?

Plus the characterizations were way off on many of the characters. When KRAD introduced the new Senior Staff members in Q&A I instantly liked the new Ops Officer and the Tactical Officer (sorry can't spell their names) but I think they're Kadohata and Leybenzon. What PAD did to them was completely destroy them IMO. I was actually wanting them to be killed off after I liked them in the first novel. But that really wasn't his fault as their history and personalities hadn't been defined at the time of PAD's writing.

But I digress I just wasn't able to truly believe the novel and what it said. Parts of it were just too overly laughable for me to take it seriously. If I were writing Destiny I'd either make Before Dishonor a dream or at least eliminate the whole absorbing thing. It makes the Borg sound like they're Brawny Paper Towels.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

A nice Chianti?

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Borg should've stopped playing around, just destroyed Earth, and simply got it all over with.

The end.

It would have denied us the chance to find out that the psychotic Borg in Before Dishonor and Resistance were Not Your TNG Season 2 Borg. It showed us that they were Definitely The Novel's Villain, and that They Meant Business. No more of this pussyfooting Borg, doing things piecemeal. Nope. Send the Mother-Of-All Borg Cubes to Earth (pausing for a quick *urp* snack in Sector 108) straight to Earth and Sector 001. Oh, and give it the ability to create mini-Cubes. Also, it ties into them no longer doing things to adapt. I mean, if literally tearing apart a security team doesn't show that, then the absorption of Pluto for no real reason beyond gaining mass and size (if not also Because They Could and Because It Was Teh Terafieeng!!11!!) certainly underlines it.

And despite all that, they still got the mandatory smackdown in the end. They just can't win...

You'd think they'd learn by now to stop trying to assimilate Earth and certain Starfleet captains...it never ends well for them.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I have just watched the finale of the latest Doctor Who season. The Daleks remind me in many ways of the Borg and this story could be seen as a huge crossover, too. The question of how do they get defeated this time was important but first of all, this story was about the characters.

It was a powerful, moving story. It wasn`t a happy end but didn`t leave the viewer depressed either. It was a bittersweet ending, something I prefer for this kind of story.

I am hoping now that "Destiny" and related novels will leave me with the same satisfied feeling.

 

[captcalhoun]

i thought it created Borgified versions of the starships it absorbed not mini-cubes...