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Wow! This guy is an asshole!

Trekker4747

Boldly going...
Premium Member
I'm watching a speical on Pluto, and one of the people they're talking to (on the side of Pluto not being a planet) is Dr. Neil Tyson. And... WOW this guy is an asshole.

The special is "Last Planet From Our Sun" and the guy just comes across to me as a great, big, DB! I mean yeah it's all fine and good he doesn't want Pluto to be a planet. Whatever. But the way he comes across... WOW
 
It seems likely that the community of planetary scientists is going to dismiss the IAU's (non-binding) definition of dwarf planets as a separate category from planets -- not only because the definition is highly flawed, but because simple logic suggests that a dwarf X is still an X (a dwarf star is still a star, a dwarf tree is still a tree). The definition was determined by a small committee within an organization containing very few planetary scientists, and thus really not qualified to issue a good definition; and it's not authoritative anyway, just a convenience for assigning names. (That's one of the IAU's main jobs -- to assign names to newly discovered astronomical bodies. They have specific rules for what kind of body can get what kind of name, so they need to define what category things go into in order to know what names are viable for them. Essentially this wasn't about whether Pluto is a planet, it was about whether future Pluto-like bodies would be named under the rules for major planets or under those for minor bodies like asteroids.) It's not really scientifically useful, and it's thus unlikely to be followed -- because science is about what works and what can be proven, not about ideology or opinion. Ideas that aren't useful don't survive in science, not because they're argued down or unpopular, but because they just don't work when applied to reality.

In any case, the key thing to remember is that if Pluto is a planet, then so are Ceres, Eris, and the dozens or hundreds of other large, spheroidal trans-Neptunian objects that have been discovered in the past 15 years or are waiting to be discovered in years to come. Either Sol System has eight planets and dozens or hundreds of dwarf planets, or it has dozens or hundreds of planets. So dwelling on Pluto alone is missing the whole point of the debate. The only reason there is a debate is because we now know that Pluto is just one of a whole new category of bodies. So if it's a planet, they all are. Get used to it -- the 9-planet Solar System is a dead idea.
 
I don't care what people say, Pluto is a planet.

There's no objective definition for the term "planet", other than what people say. It's only a matter of which people you listen to. If you don't go by anything that people say, it means you're making up your own definition.

So-- err-- what is your definition of a planet?
 
Gotta admit, this thread was an embarrassment when it started, but it had real substance by the third post, thanks to Christopher.
 
Yeah, I figured we'd get there eventually, Bad Bishop. :thumbsup: We may have a few bumps in the road, but we do get there eventually.

And actually, Dr. Tyson is one of the most well-versed, intelligent people out there on the subject. One thing I'd love to see is him and Dr. Michio Kaku in a discussion of cosmology. I've had the privilege of meeting Dr. Kaku (wonderful man, amazing to talk with, and has an ability to explain the most complicated theories in manners that even non-physicists can relate), but not Dr. Tyson yet, even though I'm a member of the museum where his Rose Center resides.
 
And yet, after seeing Dr. Tyson on a number of things, including hawking his own book on CSPAN-2 in a two hour tour de force, I would guess he'd be OK with the asshole designation. I think he likes being controversial, and if someone thinks he's an asshole, at least he got them thinking about physics. He'll take that.

And whatever we call Pluto doesn't mean jack shit. Pluto will still orbit, coldly and silently, around the Sun. It's hubris to think by naming a body we've changed it. Pluto don't care. I think this whole argument is quite humorous, which I guess is still another take on the matter.
 
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All sorts of people are assholes. Not just that science dude, either.

One of the dudes I used to work with was an asshole. He would ramble on all day about how awesome Reverend Horton Heat was/is. Not that I have a big problem with them, but it's a big whatever. Then he got his frenulum pierced and he thought he was the King of the Universe.

Anyway, I'm sure Pluto has plenty of supporters to defend itself from assholes.

"Keep firing assholes" - Dark Helmet, Spaceballs (Sorry, couldn't resist)
 
In any case, the key thing to remember is that if Pluto is a planet, then so are Ceres, Eris, and the dozens or hundreds of other large, spheroidal trans-Neptunian objects that have been discovered in the past 15 years or are waiting to be discovered in years to come. Either Sol System has eight planets and dozens or hundreds of dwarf planets, or it has dozens or hundreds of planets. So dwelling on Pluto alone is missing the whole point of the debate. The only reason there is a debate is because we now know that Pluto is just one of a whole new category of bodies. So if it's a planet, they all are. Get used to it -- the 9-planet Solar System is a dead idea.

QFT!
 
Scientists: Sucking the fun out of the solar system. Enjoy.

There are 9 planets. Sure, there are also hundreds, or thousands of planet-sized things out there, but screw them. If they get a cool name they can be planets also.

My definition of a planet: Thiiiiiiiiiis Big, and named after a Greek/Roman god.
 
There's no objective definition for the term "planet", other than what people say. It's only a matter of which people you listen to. If you don't go by anything that people say, it means you're making up your own definition.

Actually, just the opposite is true. What people say is scientifically irrelevant; in the long run, what determines how scientific concepts get defined is what the actual objective evidence shows. People used to say that Andromeda was a "spiral nebula," believing it was a cloud of gas fairly nearby. But the evidence showed tht it was actually a whole galaxy even bigger than our own, made up of hundreds of billions of stars and a good three million light-years distant. What people said was absolutely, profoundly irrelevant to what it actually was. Science is about evidence, not opinion.


Scientists: Sucking the fun out of the solar system. Enjoy.

There are 9 planets. Sure, there are also hundreds, or thousands of planet-sized things out there, but screw them. If they get a cool name they can be planets also.

You know... for centuries, people thought there were seven planets, including the Sun and Moon, which all circled the Earth. Then they figured out that the Earth was one of six known planets circling the Sun. Then Uranus and Neptune were discovered, and people thought there were seven planets, then eight. Then Ceres and the next few asteroids were discovered, and they were initially assumed to be planets, and the number went up to ten, twelve, ultimately dozens of planets in our system. It was over sixty years before Ceres and its kin were redefined as non-planets (based on the growing evidence proving that they were far smaller than originally assumed) and the number "officially" fell to eight. Then, a mere 78 years ago, Pluto was discovered and called a planet, and we started thinking there were nine. Now we've discovered Eris, which is bigger than Pluto, and it's very likely that the 98% of trans-Neptunian bodies we haven't discovered yet contain dozens of other bodies bigger than Pluto. Maybe even as big as Mars or Earth.

There's nothing special or constant about the idea of there being nine planets. Heck, I have relatives who were alive when we thought there were eight planets. Our estimates of the number of planets have varied many times in the past, and will change again in the future. It's illogical to have any attachment to a particular number of planets just because it's the one you're used to. There's nothing special about the old and familiar. Surely it's more wondrous to embrace the new, to celebrate the discovery of new planets rather than closing one's mind to the idea of changing an old assumption.
 
My definition of a planet: Thiiiiiiiiiis Big, and named after a Greek/Roman god.

That means the Earth isn't a planet!

There's no objective definition for the term "planet", other than what people say. It's only a matter of which people you listen to. If you don't go by anything that people say, it means you're making up your own definition.

Actually, just the opposite is true. What people say is scientifically irrelevant; in the long run, what determines how scientific concepts get defined is what the actual objective evidence shows.

Okay, I was oversimplifying. I didn't mean that people's opinions affect scientific facts. However, often you need to have a consensus of opinions in order to establish a definition for something. The definition of the word "planet" is not rigidly grounded in numbers, like a measurement of c, or the value of pi. What we have are the criteria defined by the IAU (thank you, Wiki!):
"A planet, as defined by the International Astronomical Union (IAU), is a celestial body orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals."

I believe this definition was established in 2006. Before that, what definition did we use? And if it was different than the above, does that mean the scientific facts have changed? Or just people's opinions? (In this case, the opinion of the IAU.) That was all I meant.
 
This issue should be settled in a scientific manner. With broken beer bottles.

My definition of a planet: Thiiiiiiiiiis Big, and named after a Greek/Roman god.

That means the Earth isn't a planet!
yeah, I forgot: or the home thereof. Earth is the Home of the Greek gods.

Now my theory is completely scientifically sound!

Earth + Greek/Roman gods + at least a certain amount of dirt which is big and roundish.
 
This issue should be settled in a scientific manner. With broken beer bottles.

My definition of a planet: Thiiiiiiiiiis Big, and named after a Greek/Roman god.

That means the Earth isn't a planet!
yeah, I forgot: or the home thereof. Earth is the Home of the Greek gods.

Now my theory is completely scientifically sound!

Earth + Greek/Roman gods + at least a certain amount of dirt which is big and roundish.

Are you excluding godesses like Venus? If not, Eris fits your criteria moreso than Pluto.

Robert
 
And actually, Dr. Tyson is one of the most well-versed, intelligent people out there on the subject.

No kidding. I'm genuinely surprised to see that anyone could think he's an asshole.

Half of his reputation is based on the fact that he's able to interpret astrophysics to laymen in a manner that's understandable without being condescending.

That's his whole deal.
 
I believe this definition was established in 2006. Before that, what definition did we use? And if it was different than the above, does that mean the scientific facts have changed? Or just people's opinions? (In this case, the opinion of the IAU.) That was all I meant.

That's the main reason for all of the wrangling - there was no previous formal definition of what a planet is. It was basically a "know one when you see one" type of thing, with planets and asteroids all being fairly clear. But the obviousness of what a planet is has become a bit less obvious as they learn more about the far outer reaches of the solar system, and also about extrasolar planets. Hence the need for a definition, basically to standardize the terminology so that people all mean the same thing when they say "planet" or "dwarf planet" or what-have-you...

-MEC
 
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