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Wow! This guy is an asshole!

Well, I don't get the logic of removing something from a Solar System display because it isn't a planet. That's like removing Greenland and Madagascar and Hawai'i from a globe of the Earth because they aren't continents. The Solar System includes planets, moons, asteroid families, cometary or icy bodies, ring systems, etc. Instead of removing Pluto, you should replace it with a display of the Kuiper Belt including Pluto as its largest known member.

But that would mean having to put effort and maybe even *gasp* spending MONEY on making it an accurate display.

Much easier to just thrown the plastic "Pluto" model in the trash and pretend it was never there to begin with.


But they're NOT pretending it was never there. Have you ever been to the Hayden Planetarium at the Rose Center? The exhibit in question is on a walkway around the Hayden Sphere, using the Sphere to show scale against other objects (e.g., if the Sphere is Earth, this is ______). The various objects used to fill in the blanks wrap in a spiral around the sphere, including the planets. There's also a walkway that follows the spiral, with plates illustrating what each thing is supposed to be. It's a tight space. They removed Pluto from the display, and replaced Pluto's plate with a discussion of the controversy over whether or not it's a planet. I've been there several times, and I don't know how they'd begin to install a display of Kuiper Belt objects in the little space they have there from where the Pluto display was. They do discuss the Kuiper Belt objects in the walkway plates, but displaying them in the scale models is a different story altogether.

It's not dismissal by any means, it's actually doing a decent job of giving both sides of the battle a voice.
 
But they're NOT pretending it was never there. Have you ever been to the Hayden Planetarium at the Rose Center? The exhibit in question is on a walkway around the Hayden Sphere, using the Sphere to show scale against other objects (e.g., if the Sphere is Earth, this is ______). The various objects used to fill in the blanks wrap in a spiral around the sphere, including the planets. There's also a walkway that follows the spiral, with plates illustrating what each thing is supposed to be. It's a tight space. They removed Pluto from the display, and replaced Pluto's plate with a discussion of the controversy over whether or not it's a planet. I've been there several times, and I don't know how they'd begin to install a display of Kuiper Belt objects in the little space they have there from where the Pluto display was. They do discuss the Kuiper Belt objects in the walkway plates, but displaying them in the scale models is a different story altogether.

It's not dismissal by any means, it's actually doing a decent job of giving both sides of the battle a voice.

I stand corrected. :techman: I was being a bit over-snarky...

And no, I've never visited there actually (I'm currently living in New Zealand). :)
 
Just because people would be resistant to an idea doesn't mean it deserves ridicule.

I wouldn't say Dr. Tyson went that far. He did roll his eyes, but he was playing along with Colbert, like he always does.

You've really misunderstood the debate. Many planetary scientists disagree profoundly with the reasoning of the IAU committee's definition for reasons that have nothing to do with tradition.

No, I understand that. I'm referring to the laypeople you mention; the people who have picketed or wear t-shirts with a frowning Pluto on them. A good chunk of the Web, really.

Mostly, I just take issue with the notion of calling Dr. Tyson an asshole. ;)
 
TerriO, you took me by surpise. I didn't know what or where this planetary exhibit was at first. As I was reading your post about Hayden Planetarium, I was realizing as you described the spiral ramp 'Hey waaaiiit a minute, I've BEEN there!', I'd forgotten the name of the place.

Some years ago some of my family and I took a trip to visit my cousin who lived in White Plains. It was a rare visit to New York City so we took the opportunity to see all we could. I only remembered the planetarium being at the American Museum Of Natural History.

That was quite a display, I enjoyed it very much.

Robert
 
They removed Pluto from the display, and replaced Pluto's plate with a discussion of the controversy over whether or not it's a planet.

I was there about seven or eight years ago, and I remember very clearly that Pluto wasn't a part of the display at all, well before this IAU thing happened. I also remember seeing Dr. Tyson explain his reasoning for not having a nine planet solar system in the display more than once.
 
You've underscored my problem with this new approach right here: I'm in full support of reclassifying the planets/asteroids/whatever as we discover more stuff, but the "dwarf planet" category seems like it's designed to single out Pluto and similar bodies without upsetting the status quo everywhere else.

Only under the IAU definition that defines dwarf planets as somehow being not planets. The person who actually coined the term several years earlier intended it simply to mean a planet that's comparatively small -- a logical counterpart to the use of "giant planet" for Jupiter, Saturn, etc. If "dwarf planet" were defined that way, as its name literally suggests -- a small planet -- then the status quo does need adjustment and nothing is singled out/marginalized.

Yes. As I recall, there were several drafts of this IAU proposal up for a vote, and there was an "a" and a "b" version of the dwarf planet proposal--the "a" said that dwarf planet was a sub-category of planet, and the "b" version had dwarf planet as its own category that were not real planets at all; and the IAU voted almost unanimously for "b." That is the kind of thing I was referring to--that the goal of this reclassification (at least amongst the people voting) was to find any excuse to remove Pluto and all the other small bodies from planetary status, whether it made any sense or not.

If the terrestrial planets and the gas giants can both be considered "true" planets despite the huge variation in their sizes, compositions and other properties, why do small icy and/or rocky bodies get singled out? Either create a definition of planet that's as inclusive as possible, or start getting more specific across the board and create new sub-classes for the current planets to reflect their different properties.
We need to do both. As we discover more exoplanets and trans-Neptunian planetary bodies, we need to develop our concept of a planet into something that's at once more inclusive and more systematically categorized. No need to say that they aren't all planets, any more than you need to say that bears, cats, and lemurs aren't all mammals. They're just different subcategories of mammals, but the term "mammal" has to be inclusive enough to incorporate everything that fits the same fundamental parameters.

That's actually what I meant, and I thought about going back and editing my post more to make it clearer, but it was too late at night and I was too tired to care. :lol: What I was trying to say was that there sould be the category of "planet," and either that should be it, or there should be as many sub-classes of planet as there need to be to make sense, rather than making one for dwarf planets, but then leaving all the other wildy different planets---rocky bodies and gas giants, some with rings, some without, some with moons, some without, etc etc--in one big undifferentiated class.

Which is exactly that you said, so I guess we agree. :cool:

Yeah -- what's wrong with having a large number of planets? Heck, for decades back in the 19th century, when asteroids were thought to be planets, the system was believed to have dozens of planets, although there were decades' worth of debate about whether to keep the "planet" label for asteroids or not.

Assuming this isn't sarcasm (:p), I agree. I recall as a child when I was first learning about the layout of the solar system that it seemed very odd to have these couple of spherical "asteroids"--Ceres and Eris--out there, but not calling them planets just because they happened to share the neighborhood with a bunch of irregular rocks. Though I hadn't been able to articulate it at the time, what I think was bothering me was that I had picked up on how all the other planets pretty much only had "roundness" and "orbits the Sun" as shared properties-all their other attributes were so wildly different that "planet" seemed like it was meant as very inclusive category.

A definition that would make Jupiter a dwarf planet if it were far enough from the Sun makes no sense at all.

And what about the Trojan and Greek asteroids that share its orbit? The IAU ruling is trying to exclude dwarf planets because they don't have enough gravity to pull in all the nearby rocks, but what about planet that has so much it concentrates debris along its orbit at Lagrange points? Or do those not count just "'cause"?

Just because people would be resistant to an idea doesn't mean it deserves ridicule.

I wouldn't say Dr. Tyson went that far. He did roll his eyes, but he was playing along with Colbert, like he always does.

I don't know-it's been a while since I saw that segment, but I got a much more hostile impression off of him than that. As David pointed out, Dr. Tyson had Pluto removed entirely from the planetarium display years before the IAU vote, which matches up with my impression of him as, essentially, holding a grudge against Pluto. Which is a really, really unscientific thing to hold a grudge about, but there you go.
 
They removed Pluto from the display, and replaced Pluto's plate with a discussion of the controversy over whether or not it's a planet.

I was there about seven or eight years ago, and I remember very clearly that Pluto wasn't a part of the display at all, well before this IAU thing happened. I also remember seeing Dr. Tyson explain his reasoning for not having a nine planet solar system in the display more than once.

Okay, that's strange. Because I distinctly remember it being there every time I've visited (until the controversy) since I moved to NYC, but that was in early 2001, so it could have gone up in between our visits.
 
That seems to be the case. This letter from Dr. Tyson from February, 2001, says that Pluto was not a part of the exhibit since its opening the previous year, and that they were deciding how to address the Pluto question at that time after a sudden pro-Pluto public outcry. Since my visit was in the first half of 2001, it looks like I was there right before they added Pluto in.
 
Besides, I can easily see every body in the solar system fitting into one of three categories: rocky, gassy or icy.

Not really. For one thing, the concept of a "gas giant" is somewhat outdated, since we now know they're mostly liquid. "Giant planet" is the preferred formal term. Also, Uranus and Neptune are significantly different from Jupiter and Saturn, a subclass sometimes called ice giants because their chemical composition includes water and other compounds that are normally ices in most of the outer system. In fact, if Uranus and Neptune had migrated closer to the Sun, they could've lost their atmospheres and become members of the class known as ocean planets, consisting maybe 50% or more by mass of water/ice over a rocky/metallic core. Essentially they are icy/watery worlds, just ones that have thick hydrogen atmospheres too.


Yes. As I recall, there were several drafts of this IAU proposal up for a vote, and there was an "a" and a "b" version of the dwarf planet proposal--the "a" said that dwarf planet was a sub-category of planet, and the "b" version had dwarf planet as its own category that were not real planets at all; and the IAU voted almost unanimously for "b."

Actually I think what happened is that there was an impasse between "a" and "b" so the IAU subcommittee slapped together a "c" at the last minute, and that was what was actually presented for the members as a whole to vote on. The "c" proposal was an attempt to compromise between "a" and "b" and address other concerns, but it was what you'd expect from a rushed compromise solution arrived at by a committee.

That is the kind of thing I was referring to--that the goal of this reclassification (at least amongst the people voting) was to find any excuse to remove Pluto and all the other small bodies from planetary status, whether it made any sense or not.

It was about deciding whether or not it was acceptable to let the number of planets in the system swell into the dozens, even hundreds, or whether it was better to keep it to a limited number so as to preserve tradition or avoid "devaluing" the concept of a planet. The latter way won out, and I think that was choosing sentiment over science. The vast majority of stars in the galaxy are tiny, dim red dwarfs, but that doesn't devalue the Sun or Rigel or Antares.


Assuming this isn't sarcasm (:p), I agree. I recall as a child when I was first learning about the layout of the solar system that it seemed very odd to have these couple of spherical "asteroids"--Ceres and Eris--out there, but not calling them planets just because they happened to share the neighborhood with a bunch of irregular rocks.

Err, Eris has only been known to exist since 2005. And Ceres is the only really spheroidal asteroid in the Main Belt, although Vesta probably would be if not for the huge impact crater that gouged out its south pole and left it shaped more like a flattened pear or something.

And what about the Trojan and Greek asteroids that share its orbit? The IAU ruling is trying to exclude dwarf planets because they don't have enough gravity to pull in all the nearby rocks, but what about planet that has so much it concentrates debris along its orbit at Lagrange points? Or do those not count just "'cause"?

The proponents of the "cleared orbit" definition point out that the Trojans are still controlled by Jupiter's gravity, so that Jupiter is the gravitationally dominant body throughout its whole orbit. But that is a bit of an awkward way of expressing it, and as stated, it's too orbit-specific; take the same body into a further orbit and it wouldn't be able to wield the same gravitational dominance over the whole thing (simply, I would imagine, because the orbit would be so much bigger).


I don't know-it's been a while since I saw that segment, but I got a much more hostile impression off of him than that. As David pointed out, Dr. Tyson had Pluto removed entirely from the planetarium display years before the IAU vote, which matches up with my impression of him as, essentially, holding a grudge against Pluto. Which is a really, really unscientific thing to hold a grudge about, but there you go.

I don't think it's a grudge, it's raising a valid scientific question. Pluto has always, always been unlike the other planets. Its orbit is anomalous, it's a small rocky/icy body out where we'd previously only found giant planets and moons, etc. Astronomers only called it a planet in the first place because they didn't know what else they could call it, but from the beginning its exact nature and identity were a matter of uncertainty. Once we began to discover other Kuiper Belt bodies, starting about 15 years ago, we began to see a possible explanation for Pluto's anomalies, and many astronomers began thinking of it as sort of a large cometary body rather than a planet. The IAU thing in 2006 wasn't out of the blue, it was a culmination (though clearly not a resolution) of years of growing debate within the astronomical community.

So it's got nothing to do with grudges. It's silly to say that just because something isn't a planet, that means it isn't as worthwhile. The cosmos is full of fascinating things that aren't planets. The idea that there's a whole new belt of cometary bodies beyond Neptune is a wondrous, amazing notion. It's not about putting Pluto down, it's about caring enough about Pluto to want to understand what it truly is rather than just shoving it into an old category that may not do it justice.
 
I consider Pluto a planet.

It has been regarded as a planet since it was discovered (on the contrary to Ceres and the other small planets) and changing that is silly. Either all those small planets should be considered planets or if they don't want to do it, they should make an exception for Pluto since it has been regarded as a planet for a long time.

It also annoys me that they didn't name the planet (or asteroid) they recently discovered Xena but did choose Eris instead. What a bunch of boring old woodblocks! Xena is a striking name.
 
Besides, I can easily see every body in the solar system fitting into one of three categories: rocky, gassy or icy.

Not really. For one thing, the concept of a "gas giant" is somewhat outdated, since we now know they're mostly liquid. "Giant planet" is the preferred formal term. Also, Uranus and Neptune are significantly different from Jupiter and Saturn, a subclass sometimes called ice giants because their chemical composition includes water and other compounds that are normally ices in most of the outer system. In fact, if Uranus and Neptune had migrated closer to the Sun, they could've lost their atmospheres and become members of the class known as ocean planets, consisting maybe 50% or more by mass of water/ice over a rocky/metallic core. Essentially they are icy/watery worlds, just ones that have thick hydrogen atmospheres too.

Ah, well, you're a splitter and I'm a lumper. We can still coexist peacefully though. Subclasses are probably necessary, and can be helpful. But I still think we can classify bodies grossly as either mostly rock, mostly gas (of whatever composition), or mostly ice.

Potentialities don't concern me, really; sure, Neptune would look quite different if it were closer to the Sun, but it isn't, and I don't see why "what might have been" should be a factor in classifying a planet.
 
I consider Pluto a planet.

It has been regarded as a planet since it was discovered (on the contrary to Ceres and the other small planets) and changing that is silly.

Not true. Ceres was regarded as a planet for over 60 years before being officially downgraded to an asteroid. Pluto was discovered in 1930 and reclassified as a dwarf planet in 2006, meaning its tenure as a planet lasted only a decade or so longer than Ceres' did. Also, there's been some debate among astronomers about its designation as a planet for pretty much the entirety of that 76 years. Just because the general public took it as unquestioned fact doesn't mean it was regarded among all scientists as a settled issue.

The only meaningful difference between the case of Ceres and the case of Pluto is that our generation has gotten used to thinking of Pluto as a planet and Ceres as a non-planet. But whole generations grew up thinking Ceres was a planet and not even knowing Pluto existed. That changed.

Either all those small planets should be considered planets or if they don't want to do it, they should make an exception for Pluto since it has been regarded as a planet for a long time.

They didn't make an exception for Ceres, and it was regarded a planet for nearly as long. Now, nobody even remembers it was called a planet.

It also annoys me that they didn't name the planet (or asteroid) they recently discovered Xena but did choose Eris instead. What a bunch of boring old woodblocks! Xena is a striking name.

There are rules to these things. Xena is not the name of a deity.

And they did maintain a Xena connection in the official names. The goddess Eris is also known as Discord, a recurring character played by Meighan Desmond in Xena: Warrior Princess. And the moon of Eris was named for Eris's daughter Dysnomia (lawlessness) in tribute to Lucy Lawless.

Ah, well, you're a splitter and I'm a lumper. We can still coexist peacefully though. Subclasses are probably necessary, and can be helpful. But I still think we can classify bodies grossly as either mostly rock, mostly gas (of whatever composition), or mostly ice.

The only bodies that are mostly gas are stars or maybe brown dwarfs. As I said, the planets we used to call "gas giants" are in fact mostly liquid by volume.

Potentialities don't concern me, really; sure, Neptune would look quite different if it were closer to the Sun, but it isn't, and I don't see why "what might have been" should be a factor in classifying a planet.

Because of its taxonomic similarities to other planets. If two planets are essentially identical in every way except their atmospheres, I think it's misguided to call them unrelated types. At the very least, although it's true that a Neptune-class ice giant is different from an ocean planet of the type theorized by Leger, it is also quite distinct in composition from a Jupiter-type giant and should not be lumped into the same category.
 
The only bodies that are mostly gas are stars or maybe brown dwarfs. As I said, the planets we used to call "gas giants" are in fact mostly liquid by volume.

And "brown dwarfs" aren't really brown, that's just a name that was chosen to describe their characteristics as substellar non-fusing objects even cooler than red dwarfs. The fact that they aren't really brown in color isn't a problem because the name doesn't have to be completely accurate as long as we all agree as to what the name refers. I think we can safely continue to call the gas giants "gas giants" even though the name isn't perfectly accurate.

Potentialities don't concern me, really; sure, Neptune would look quite different if it were closer to the Sun, but it isn't, and I don't see why "what might have been" should be a factor in classifying a planet.

Because of its taxonomic similarities to other planets. If two planets are essentially identical in every way except their atmospheres, I think it's misguided to call them unrelated types. At the very least, although it's true that a Neptune-class ice giant is different from an ocean planet of the type theorized by Leger, it is also quite distinct in composition from a Jupiter-type giant and should not be lumped into the same category.

You've exemplified my problem with splitting - everything eventually ends up in a category unto itself. If you we split objects into categories too finely, we end up acknowledging that Neptune really is the only Neptune-class object in existence. What does that gain us? Nothing. We need to look for commonalities in planets, and keep the categories to a minimum. Hence, lumping is my preference.
 
You've exemplified my problem with splitting - everything eventually ends up in a category unto itself.

I'm not talking about splitting things into separate categories; I'm talking about delinating the different subcategories within the "planet" category in a way that's actually meaningful and based on scientific observation rather than on arbitrary or outmoded assumptions.
 
All sorts of people are assholes.

Everyone has an asshole. Oh, and Pluto is a dog, damnit, and not a planet! Geez, when will people get this right.

And a ugly one at that!

Geez, what a stupid thread.

As the third post states, if Pluto is a planet, then so are all the other Keiber Belt Objects. And maybe even some of the Asteroid Belt objects.

The bottom line is this...we have to draw a line somewhere and it looks like the IAU did it for us.

Me? I have no problem with Pluto not being a planet anymore. All it means is that we must accept that the world is no longer flat...again. Or as Yoda would have said, "We must unlearn what we have learned." :vulcan:
 
You've exemplified my problem with splitting - everything eventually ends up in a category unto itself.

I'm not talking about splitting things into separate categories; I'm talking about delinating the different subcategories within the "planet" category in a way that's actually meaningful and based on scientific observation rather than on arbitrary or outmoded assumptions.

I, for one, haven't made any arbitrary or outmoded assumptions. I'm just looking to keep the number of categories of "planet" to a minimum. Perhaps a Linnaean-type hierarchy of classification is in order.

By the way, I think the adjective "gas" is an important qualifier in the name "gas giant"; saying only "giant planet" doesn't tell me whether it's mostly rocky, icy or fluid. As a geophysicist, I need to know what the composition of the object is to understand how to approach studying it.
 
I, for one, haven't made any arbitrary or outmoded assumptions. I'm just looking to keep the number of categories of "planet" to a minimum. Perhaps a Linnaean-type hierarchy of classification is in order.

That's exactly what I've been talking about all along! What did you think I was proposing? :confused:

By the way, I think the adjective "gas" is an important qualifier in the name "gas giant"; saying only "giant planet" doesn't tell me whether it's mostly rocky, icy or fluid. As a geophysicist, I need to know what the composition of the object is to understand how to approach studying it.

Any body large enough to earn the "giant" sobriquet implicitly has enough gravity to hold onto a substantial hydrogen/helium atmosphere over geologic time; therefore "gas giant" is a somewhat redundant label. It's also pretty much a given that a giant planet will have a largely liquid interior and a solid core (or a degenerate core if it's sufficiently large). And the subcategories of Jovian giant and Neptunian or ice giant tell you the chemical composition. Those classes will presumably be subdivided further as we classify more giant exoplanets -- but that's not "splitting," it's creating a hierarchy.
 
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