My main point was intended as "the Borg cannot exist without killing other people first." Obviously, that's not a trait the Federation wants in its member planets (or ship cultures, etc.).
Could the Borg ever become a member of the Federation? Or peace?
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The chances do look pretty poor for the Borg. I'll state that I don't think it's possible either but I brought it up because it was a mental puzzle of sorts. I was kind of wondering if anyone else could twist it together but it doesn't look like it.
You know, I've never looked at it that way before, but it's true. The Borg have a Queen and then the drones are drones. It's also a pretty lopsided caste system...the only thing that could possibly go in between a regular drone and the Queen is a borg who's been selected as a speaker, like Locutus. But he probably would have gone back to usual drone-dome after the humans were assimilated and his role un-needed.
Well, maybe if they stood on each other's shoulders they could be "Future Guy" from Enterprise...
These two statements really cut into the heart of the matter, I think. An excellent point.
This is a fascinating idea -- a Borg neutral zone. No one in their right mind would want to cross that line. With their resources they could probably have a 'guard-tower' cube stationed every X measurement units apart from each other, ready to swoop in on whoever is voiding the treaty. Freaky.
You know, I've never looked at it that way before, but it's true. The Borg have a Queen and then the drones are drones. It's also a pretty lopsided caste system...the only thing that could possibly go in between a regular drone and the Queen is a borg who's been selected as a speaker, like Locutus. But he probably would have gone back to usual drone-dome after the humans were assimilated and his role un-needed.
Well, maybe if they stood on each other's shoulders they could be "Future Guy" from Enterprise...
These two statements really cut into the heart of the matter, I think. An excellent point.
This is a fascinating idea -- a Borg neutral zone. No one in their right mind would want to cross that line. With their resources they could probably have a 'guard-tower' cube stationed every X measurement units apart from each other, ready to swoop in on whoever is voiding the treaty. Freaky.
It is a bit worrisome when people start banning the Borg for doing in absolute what established Federation members are already doing in a more graduated manner. There's plenty of slavery, discrimination, suppression of free will and subsistence at the expense of others' lives in the Federation already, only in forms that are either acceptable to the human audience already, or are dismissed as quirks on an otherwise swell species.
We know the Federation accepts ritualized murder on Vulcan, tolerated racist slavery on Ardana for a while, has never had a problem telling its far-flung colonists exactly how to live or stomping out attempts at independence declarations, and accepts the oppressive, violent and greedy Trill, Klingon and Ferengi cultural characteristics as personal traits on Federation citizens even if these species aren't necessarily UFP members yet.
As for caste systems, it's far from said that this would be automatic grounds for refusal of membership. All Sisko in "Accession" ever says about the issue is this:
Literally taken, it's only discrimination that the UFP frowns on, not castes as such. Every society has castes to some degree, those born to the purple, those abhorring the very thought of marrying to the purple. Up one level, every society is likely to have organizations within which strict caste systems apply - say, Starfleet. The Borg Collective could be taken as an "organization" rather than as a "government" or "national culture", accepted the same way it is accepted that people born free of a caste structure are later adopted into one when they slip into the Starfleet hierarchy.
And while the Borg in a sense require human(oid) sacrifice to survive, it's a relatively benign form of sacrifice, probably no worse than the Trill thing. The will to expand and conquer is in turn no different from the human one - if anything, humans have assimilated other species far faster and far more aggressively than the Borg, given how the Federation sports something like 150 members after mere 200 years, while the Collective is familiar with only about 10,000 species (not nearly all of them assimilated yet) after hundreds of thousands of years of existence.
Timo Saloniemi
We know the Federation accepts ritualized murder on Vulcan, tolerated racist slavery on Ardana for a while, has never had a problem telling its far-flung colonists exactly how to live or stomping out attempts at independence declarations, and accepts the oppressive, violent and greedy Trill, Klingon and Ferengi cultural characteristics as personal traits on Federation citizens even if these species aren't necessarily UFP members yet.
As for caste systems, it's far from said that this would be automatic grounds for refusal of membership. All Sisko in "Accession" ever says about the issue is this:
Literally taken, it's only discrimination that the UFP frowns on, not castes as such. Every society has castes to some degree, those born to the purple, those abhorring the very thought of marrying to the purple. Up one level, every society is likely to have organizations within which strict caste systems apply - say, Starfleet. The Borg Collective could be taken as an "organization" rather than as a "government" or "national culture", accepted the same way it is accepted that people born free of a caste structure are later adopted into one when they slip into the Starfleet hierarchy.
And while the Borg in a sense require human(oid) sacrifice to survive, it's a relatively benign form of sacrifice, probably no worse than the Trill thing. The will to expand and conquer is in turn no different from the human one - if anything, humans have assimilated other species far faster and far more aggressively than the Borg, given how the Federation sports something like 150 members after mere 200 years, while the Collective is familiar with only about 10,000 species (not nearly all of them assimilated yet) after hundreds of thousands of years of existence.
Timo Saloniemi
Not necessarily. It might be possible for the Borg to switch to, say, a volunteer-only method of assimilation, like the Tok'Ra on SG-1. Since assimilation comes with certain perks--health, a collective purpose, community, de facto immortality--I could see there being quite a draw, assuming the Collective could get the right PR firm.
Surely that wouldn't violate the Federation's policy on individual choice.
One way or another the Borg must support peace or face and end to their existing form. Treaty and eventually joining the Federation is one option.
The Federation has already recognized the Borg as a race deserving the same protections as any other ("I, Borg" TNG). I doubt the Federation forbids nomadics from membership. The Borg have a simple nomatic state (non-planetary). The Queen brings order to chaos; government cannot get much more simple than that. Still, it is a government. The Borg have culture and spiritual belief. Unlike many other cultures, they do not hide faith in the guise of seemingly irreligious terms such as "science" or "principals", their faith, the worship of perfection, just is. Their culture, is a "culture of one", due to their nature. Split them irreparably into two or more equal collectives, I guarantee the worship of perfection would remain with all factions and divergence in culture and religion among factions would propagate faster than any fully biological species. Note, Seven of Nine was disconnected from the collective, effectively becoming a collective of one, and still worshiped perfection. Echeb continued to have a strong drive toward perfection after a much shorter time with the Borg. Hugh and his contemporaries were unwilling to assimilate the unwilling, and willing to follow an insane homicidal leader to progress again toward perfection. The Federation would accept and protect Borg government, culture, religion, their race, and their goals, just as with any other member. It is the merely methods the Borg way of life that must change. Mainly, no more destruction in the pursuit of perfection. There are cultures within Federation membership that have no concerns about physical bodies of the dead and no concerns of souls returning to a body after death. Dead bodies can be used to make new drones. Some may even like the idea of the 'immorality' of the process; having one's life experiences recorded into the immortal Borg collective. The ultimate organ donor, knowledge and maybe even personality included. Entering the collective might also become a limited experience. Non-destructive entrance and ability to leave the collective not only to return to one's previous identity but retention of the knowledge and experience of the collective. Chakotay entered and left one such limited collective (but later that same collective forced their will on him, "Unity" VOY). Another limited form of the collective could have _all_ individuals in the Federation as drones. Parts of each person's mind is used only if they are not currently using it for themselves. Similar to distributing computing that only utilizes unused CPU cycles. Finally, drones could simply be replaced with artificial life-forms. Though this is a problem as such life-forms apparently require sentience and therefore have the right to individuality.
But even without the Borg adapting to meet Federation principles, the Borg have a big obstacle in their path they cannot overcome without changing their methods. Species do not continue their biological and technological advancement after being assimilated. Eventually, the Borg will be forced adapt without outside stimulus. Something they do not seem to be very good at, and for practical reasons, never will be. Should they succeed in assimilating the universe (including even non-corporal, artificial, photonic, and n-dimensional life-forms and whatever else). They would then use their collective knowledge and biological stores to reconstruct their victims, so that species could start advancing again. Something they may as well do as Federation members for efficiency's sake.
The Federation has already recognized the Borg as a race deserving the same protections as any other ("I, Borg" TNG). I doubt the Federation forbids nomadics from membership. The Borg have a simple nomatic state (non-planetary). The Queen brings order to chaos; government cannot get much more simple than that. Still, it is a government. The Borg have culture and spiritual belief. Unlike many other cultures, they do not hide faith in the guise of seemingly irreligious terms such as "science" or "principals", their faith, the worship of perfection, just is. Their culture, is a "culture of one", due to their nature. Split them irreparably into two or more equal collectives, I guarantee the worship of perfection would remain with all factions and divergence in culture and religion among factions would propagate faster than any fully biological species. Note, Seven of Nine was disconnected from the collective, effectively becoming a collective of one, and still worshiped perfection. Echeb continued to have a strong drive toward perfection after a much shorter time with the Borg. Hugh and his contemporaries were unwilling to assimilate the unwilling, and willing to follow an insane homicidal leader to progress again toward perfection. The Federation would accept and protect Borg government, culture, religion, their race, and their goals, just as with any other member. It is the merely methods the Borg way of life that must change. Mainly, no more destruction in the pursuit of perfection. There are cultures within Federation membership that have no concerns about physical bodies of the dead and no concerns of souls returning to a body after death. Dead bodies can be used to make new drones. Some may even like the idea of the 'immorality' of the process; having one's life experiences recorded into the immortal Borg collective. The ultimate organ donor, knowledge and maybe even personality included. Entering the collective might also become a limited experience. Non-destructive entrance and ability to leave the collective not only to return to one's previous identity but retention of the knowledge and experience of the collective. Chakotay entered and left one such limited collective (but later that same collective forced their will on him, "Unity" VOY). Another limited form of the collective could have _all_ individuals in the Federation as drones. Parts of each person's mind is used only if they are not currently using it for themselves. Similar to distributing computing that only utilizes unused CPU cycles. Finally, drones could simply be replaced with artificial life-forms. Though this is a problem as such life-forms apparently require sentience and therefore have the right to individuality.
But even without the Borg adapting to meet Federation principles, the Borg have a big obstacle in their path they cannot overcome without changing their methods. Species do not continue their biological and technological advancement after being assimilated. Eventually, the Borg will be forced adapt without outside stimulus. Something they do not seem to be very good at, and for practical reasons, never will be. Should they succeed in assimilating the universe (including even non-corporal, artificial, photonic, and n-dimensional life-forms and whatever else). They would then use their collective knowledge and biological stores to reconstruct their victims, so that species could start advancing again. Something they may as well do as Federation members for efficiency's sake.
I've never been comfortable with the Borg being described as a species. That's like describing slaves as a species. The collective is comprised of enslaved beings who have no agency over their decisions.
Whether there is a distinct species that created - and exists within - the collective is something that I'd like to see explored if possible. The queens always just seemed like puppets to me.
As far as the question of the Borg working with the Federation is concerned. No. Frankly, I don't believe that Starfleet or Federation people should even refer to them as the Borg but rather as victims of enslavement controlled by unknown forces.
Whether there is a distinct species that created - and exists within - the collective is something that I'd like to see explored if possible. The queens always just seemed like puppets to me.
As far as the question of the Borg working with the Federation is concerned. No. Frankly, I don't believe that Starfleet or Federation people should even refer to them as the Borg but rather as victims of enslavement controlled by unknown forces.
Doesn't this exchange just about sum the answer up?
Borg: Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.
Picard: I have nothing to say to you! And I will resist you with my last ounce of strength!
Borg: Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and techonological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Picard: Impossible! My culture is based on freedom and self-determination!
Borg: Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply.
The Borg would have to adapt their culture, i.e no longer adding people to the collective without their approval.
Borg: Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.
Picard: I have nothing to say to you! And I will resist you with my last ounce of strength!
Borg: Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and techonological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Picard: Impossible! My culture is based on freedom and self-determination!
Borg: Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply.
The Borg would have to adapt their culture, i.e no longer adding people to the collective without their approval.
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