Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)

[Jono]

It was a good episode. I really wish they could have found a way for Christopher Eccleston to be involved as well instead of twin Tenth Doctor, have some Ninth and Tenth Doctor action.

I hope Mickey does end up on Torchwood, I'd probably start watching it again. Though, I wouldn't have minded if Mickey stayed with the Doctor as a companion for a while. I only just got into Doctor Who but have previous doctors ever just had a male companion? Another question, does he always regenerate as a male or can he come back as a female?

Also, been a while since I watched Rose episodes but Piper's acting seemed off...or maybe that's just me.

 

[Eminence]

Yeah, Piper seemed to play Rose a bit differently than when she on the series as a regular. Part of that might be in regards to Rose's progression as a character since then, but some of it did seem a bit off.

 

[Yello1010]

Eminence:

I know what you mean about apparent changes in the portrayal of the Rose character. To be honest though I think alot of that was because Rose was given a snatched line here or there for the most part, and not a single scene in which to re-establish the character. The brief moment where she and the Doctor shared the revelation about Gwen was classic Rose

 

[Hobs202]

Altogether now!

Also the Dalek taskforce featured here doesn't seem to be quite as formidible as the Doctor makes them out to be, due to the seemingly poorer quality of their ships and casings, and that planatoid lair (the Crucible) being cobbled together. In fact they seemed more degenerate and insane than the Dalek Emperor's dogmatic hybrid force, even though they had access to some very heavy technology that would make Q wet himself (although that would be down to Davros and perhaps Caan being the Kaled growth templates).

Yes, I didn't quite buy the Doctor's remark that these Daleks were the REAL deal. For one thing, these Daleks didn't have shields, rotating mid-sections, or the tactical prowesses seen before. The part annoyed me the most was when Jack and the others just started physically shoving them around. I thought the Daleks had developed ways of close-combat fighting (the sucker can be used as a weapon, and supposedly they can cause anyone who physically touches their casings to burst into flames). The saucers didn't have the continent-busting firepower that we saw in "Parting of the Ways" (although I guess it could be argued that these Daleks didn't want to damage the Earth too much). Also, I find it a little hard to believe that for an advanced Empire, ALL the individual Daleks would be connected to a SINGLE power source.

I did like the Red Supreme Dalek, though.

I guess you could say that the reason why these Daleks didn't seem as individually advanced is because the devoted all their resources into the Reality Bomb.

Still, these Daleks seem nowhere near as dangerous as the single Dalek in "Dalek."

 

[diankra]

I also fail to see the point to Davros' plan to destroy everything. Suppose he succeeded - what then? What's the point of Daleks' existence if they don't have anything to conquer and exterminate?

Purity. They see themselves as the superior race in the universe and therefore the only species worthy of existing. Once everyone is dead, they'll reach nirvana.

Also, back in Genesis of the Daleks, when the Doctor is still trying to work out whether Davros can be reasoned with, he puts to him a 'thought experiment' about developing a virus which would wipe out all other life and be the only life form in the universe (I know, a virus can't exist without hosts in which to breed, but forget that. Apart from anything else, Terry Nation was writing Survivors at the same time, so viruses were on his mind...)
Davros thinks about it, and eventually says 'I would do it', because to be the creator of the only lifeform in the universe would 'put me up above the gods' (and at that moment, accoridng to the book, the Doctor 'realizes Davros is mad and has to be stopped').
Same old, different setting, different method. The whatever-it-was destroys all universes, leaving only the Daleks created from Davros himself. And him above the Gods, even if he's a pet in the cellar (which conveniently includes all the controls uber-Donna needs to wipe out the Dalek race...).

 

[diankra]

Altogether now!

Also the Dalek taskforce featured here doesn't seem to be quite as formidible as the Doctor makes them out to be, due to the seemingly poorer quality of their ships and casings, and that planatoid lair (the Crucible) being cobbled together. In fact they seemed more degenerate and insane than the Dalek Emperor's dogmatic hybrid force, even though they had access to some very heavy technology that would make Q wet himself (although that would be down to Davros and perhaps Caan being the Kaled growth templates).

Yes, I didn't quite buy the Doctor's remark that these Daleks were the REAL deal.

Actually.. they behave a lot like the Daleks from the original series (shouting impotently, panicking, blowing up if someone mucks their power supply). So yep, they are the real deal!
But that aside, I'm largely with you on this - Journey's End has pretty much undone all the work Dalek did (and had to do) to make them a threat rather than a joke.

 

[diankra]

It was a good episode. I really wish they could have found a way for Christopher Eccleston to be involved as well instead of twin Tenth Doctor, have some Ninth and Tenth Doctor action.

What, like kidnapping Eccleston's family? He doesn't want to do it again, so that's how it'll have to be until he changes his mind (hopefully in time for the 50th anniversary special).
Besides, am I the only one who thought that the Human-Doctor's costume was a 9th Doctor reference ? 10th Doctor's spare jacket, but a 9th Doctor's 'jumper' rather than a shirt and tie.

 

[DS9Continuing]

From the Doctors reaction to finding that he's part human and the line about such a thing never happening before, I guess RTD has erased the half human thing that was put into the TV movie. Good. I never liked that.

I thought that was a clever way of putting that whole controversy to bed without actually dealing with it. Kind of like the Gwen/Gwyneth thing later.

Thematically, I can't get my head around why the return of Rose would be suggested through two series, then when she does finally return she and the Doctor not having one meaningful conversation.

Yeah, a lot of build-up for not a whole hell of a lot of pay-off.

1 - Did I miss HOW exactly she managed the dimension-jumping? Was it just the same device as in "Doomsday"?

2 - If so, what about the universe-destroying side-effect? Was that just glossed over? Was it a necessary evil because Rose had to warn the Doctor? Was it actually the whole reason Caan was able to break the Time Lock and start the whole thing in motion, even though it was done in response to that, in a wibbly-wobbly kind of way?

3 - Where does the last scene of "Partners in Crime" fit in? We had been led to believe (or at least I had led myself to believe) that the season would circle back around to that point and we'd see Rose's POV on that scene. But nothing of the sort happened.

4 - Why did she disappear in a big flash some times, and just fade to blank at others?

Flicking a few switches to make all the Daleks blow up (umm, how?) was quite anti-climatic.

NOT. Sorry for the capitals, but this is important. She did NOT save the world by flicking a few switches. She saved the world by being a unique combination of Human and Time Lord, which allowed for ideas and solutions neither had ever considered, thus allowing her to know which switches to flick. Important distinction.

And I thought it was a good way of diffusing the growing tension by solving the problem with a bit of comedy.

Speaking of brilliance, I loved what Davies had to say through Davros about The Doctor's stance towards violence and how he uses his companions instead to do his dirty work. It's true and not just for the new series.

Yes, excellent stuff. We'd been led into seeing the return of all these companions running to help the Doctor as a wonderful reunion, the cavalry coming to the rescue. To have Davros turn around and explain to us how that could be a BAD thing was very affecting.

At last we finally get to see the TARDIS with a full crew!

Yeah, I don't know if it's a difference between old-Who and nu-Who fans, but I have always known that it was designed for multiple pilots, and that's why (a), the Doctor is always running around like a mad bastard, and (b) the Tardis doesn't always work properly. I was not surprised by this revelation in the slightest, because it's not a revelation, it's established backstory.

The Ode to Donna at the end with The Doctor honoring her memory by sharing to her mum and grandfather the effect she had on the universe. Lost of memory, just as some poster predicted.

Yes, that was touching. It redefines the moments at the end of "The Fires of Pompeii" and "Planet of the Ood" for me. Those had initially seemed to be cases of people worshipping the Doctor like a god - a re-run of themes from season 2. In retrospect, I see that it was actually to show that Donna will be remembered by people out there, even if she doesn't remember herself. And that's lovely.

* And DoctorDonna just rattles off a fix for the chamelion circuit!? So apparently the Doctors known how to fix it all this time?!

Nope. As above, the solution came from the fact that Donna was something special - a combination of Human and Time Lord who could see solutions neither could on their own.

I mean was Jack really necessary? Was Sarah Jane really necessary?

Yes, they were, to emphasise Davros's point. All the companions seen in the RTD era needed to be present.

Also, did I miss it, or did they ever explain the source of "The darkness is coming"?

the darkness is what would have have happened if Davros's plan had gone ahead, DoctorDonna stopped it.

I'm glad you explained that one, 'cuz I missed it too.

The faults I thought was the whole duex ex machina (sp?) thing at the end.

Please... stop. Not a deus ex machina, because it was set-up repeatedly throughout the season, which defies the one central definition of the phrase. I am not one who believes in giving up the fight just because people insist on using incorrect definitions.

 

[Jono]

It was a good episode. I really wish they could have found a way for Christopher Eccleston to be involved as well instead of twin Tenth Doctor, have some Ninth and Tenth Doctor action.

What, like kidnapping Eccleston's family? He doesn't want to do it again, so that's how it'll have to be until he changes his mind (hopefully in time for the 50th anniversary special).
Besides, am I the only one who thought that the Human-Doctor's costume was a 9th Doctor reference ? 10th Doctor's spare jacket, but a 9th Doctor's 'jumper' rather than a shirt and tie.

Didn't know that Eccleston said he didn't want to be involved in Who ever again.

 

[Hobs202]

Altogether now!

Also the Dalek taskforce featured here doesn't seem to be quite as formidible as the Doctor makes them out to be, due to the seemingly poorer quality of their ships and casings, and that planatoid lair (the Crucible) being cobbled together. In fact they seemed more degenerate and insane than the Dalek Emperor's dogmatic hybrid force, even though they had access to some very heavy technology that would make Q wet himself (although that would be down to Davros and perhaps Caan being the Kaled growth templates).

Yes, I didn't quite buy the Doctor's remark that these Daleks were the REAL deal.

Actually.. they behave a lot like the Daleks from the original series (shouting impotently, panicking, blowing up if someone mucks their power supply). So yep, they are the real deal!
But that aside, I'm largely with you on this - Journey's End has pretty much undone all the work Dalek did (and had to do) to make them a threat rather than a joke.

Which is exactly why I believe the Daleks should be given a couple years break. That should give the writers enough time to figure out how to make them look like a convincing enemy again.

In the meantime, I would actually like to see more of the Sontarans, the Cybermen (preferably from our universe), and the Judoon.

 

[wamdue]

this reminds me did anyone else get the impression with the 10th Doctor saying "he was born in the middle of a war" (or words to that effect) " and that is when you first meet me" was hinting that the 8th to 9th regeneration was during the Time War, im thinking before he did whatever he did that wiped out both the Daleks & the TimeLords.

 

[Classic Fan]

Well, what can i say....





What can i say indeed...



It was... Ok i suppose.





NO RESET BUTTON. WELL, KINDA NO RESET BUTTON.

Its at least a damn site better than the previous two years that have been so over hyped and turn out to be, well, shit. But, the first two parts of 'Last of the Timelords' trilogy were excellent, only to be let down by its third part.

This was not a cop out, well, some points ill cover later but still.

WTF was that crap about the, quite litterally, a throw-away regeneration? I got it, yeah. But... why. Why couldnt it have been a cleverly thought out regeneration. and then we got The DoctorDonna, then thats where it got better and i forgave RTDs throw-away regeneration cos it kinda made sense after that. Although, he did the reaction he was obviously after... 'Why the fuck is he still 10?' and then he explained.

Although, like Tennant said in confidential, im sure also that the regeneration will come under scrutiny 'is it a regeneration or not' debate, but well wait and see.

The story, again, was choppy. Torchwood just disappeared after the first part, didnt see or hear from them pretty much the entire episode. The same with the Shadow Proclamation, all this build up after mentioning them for four seasons to be seen for all but ten minutes and to just disapear.

Davros being used as a servant was an interesting twist though, didnt see that coming.

And YES. Davros vs. Sarah Jane Smith, that was pure brilliance. Her being there from the beginning, which she was, was great. Her reaction to him and his recognition of her face was just genius. Gave me tingles of excitement. Am kinda glad though that they didnt have a fully fledged Sarah vs. Davros confrontation, if it did happen it wouldve slowed the ep down, and the fact kids will have no clue as to what they were on a about.





!!!GERMAN DALEKS!!!








Martha, flying solo again for the second finale in a row was kinda cool. off to save the earth, or destroy it in a sense. Three stations ready to comit mass murder to save the earth from being enslaved. it was a sub story that, to be honest really didnt need to be in there. Apart from of course, Daleks talking German.


And the two Doctors thing. I liked it, yeah. The whole duplicate from the hand/blending with Donna thing was well done, and as i said earlier, it made the regeneration seem acceptable. The DoctorDonna rambling was fantastic. "Oi, watch it spaceman" - "Oi, you watch it Earth Girl" The cross over of two personalities was just brilliant. Both taking on characterisitics or the other. And the way Donna just kept blurting out technobabble in a fast hyperactive Tennant fashion was awesome.

But the best part was when the Tardis appeared in the cell area. Jack just looked in awe and muttered "Briliant." The best part of it was that Jack thought it was a plan by The Doctor to resolve the situation to have himself cross his own timeline, without realising it all happened by mistake and The Doctor was oblivious to it until it happened.

Thats the part that initially had me thinking she was a Time Lady or something like that, when she looked around the Tardis and at the console as if she was remembering it of a sort. Until the regen energy blended with the both of them and then it dawned on me that she was just a human that had downloaded a Timelords knowledge, and him vise-versa.

The whole 'Destroy everything by pressing buttons on a console' was the weakest part. Thats the 'Kinda not a reset button' i mentioned above. It was lazy to do it, the whole fleet was taken out by, litterally intiating a self destruct type thing. WTF, where was the figuring it out. The DoctorDonna couldve been such a cool scene to figure it out and stop it, while our Doctor was held captive unable to do a thing. The excahnges between The DoctorDonna were superb though, they played it so well.


And her fate, that was sooo sad. The fact that she knew exactly what was happening becasue she had the knowledge of The Doctor, she was pleading with him not to take it away, but deep down she knew it had to be done. The most chilling part was the 'stuck record' moment, that was eerie. "Its the binari, binari, binari,binari, binari, binari..." And the fact that she lost all of that and her memory of being with The Doctor aswel and went back to 'average joe life' was so emotionally charged.



The high point for me was the exchange between Wilf and The Doctor. That was superb. Cribbins and Tennant, two actors of great capacity in such an emotional scene and farewell.




Still think the whole 'Rose is back' was wasted. She was just there, nothing much happened.



And the fact that RTD had everyone and everything wrapped up from his tenure was kinda shoved in there. The comapnions as weapons thing was ok, but the whole squeezing everything ive done in one ep was adventurous.




Although, this does mean that Ten is now left with one brown suit from season 2, a white pair and a black pair of Converse and just a shirt and tie.

10.5 robbed his change of clothes including his redish t shirt for casual wear.

 

[Starkers]

I really don't know what to vote. In many ways this was fantastic, but in so many others it was a damp squib.

The regeneration get out, even though I knew there would be one, was ridiculous, but this was then surpassed by the DoctorDonna situation.

The Daleks plan was stupid, but not as stupid as the '3' Doctors reversing it by flipping some switches and spouting some technobabble- RTD, very good at writing set up- but for the most part lousy with resolutions.

As someone else said, seriously what use were Rose, Mickey and Jackie except just to be in the finale? And the way Tennant just fobbed Rose off with a cheap imitation of him...well nice to see RTD's attitude to relationships as is nice as ever. Still on the plus side we can now have a 10th Doctor in a multiple Doctor story without having to bother about him aging, kudos for that.

It was enjoyable though, highly enjoyable in places, and it was sure as hell 100 times better than Last of the Timelords, but after such a wonderful set up last week, well I really wanted more than another 'Harry Potter' style magical solution. I also didn't expect another 'A companion will die' no, not really trick again, nor another Bad Wolf Bay send off.

The good though- Davros, brilliantly realised.
Donna, the end of her story was beautiful, and Bernanrd Cribbins line at the end was just wonderful- sackfulls more pathos than seeing RTD try to repeat the Doctor/Rose goodbye.
Tennant, specifically the look in the doctor's eye right at the end, alone once more- fantastic.

I'll probably decide after watching it again if it's fantastic, or simple above average- really it should have been better, but RTD has crafted a lot worse so I'm not unhappy.

 

[diankra]

It was a good episode. I really wish they could have found a way for Christopher Eccleston to be involved as well instead of twin Tenth Doctor, have some Ninth and Tenth Doctor action.

What, like kidnapping Eccleston's family? He doesn't want to do it again, so that's how it'll have to be until he changes his mind (hopefully in time for the 50th anniversary special).
Besides, am I the only one who thought that the Human-Doctor's costume was a 9th Doctor reference ? 10th Doctor's spare jacket, but a 9th Doctor's 'jumper' rather than a shirt and tie.

Didn't know that Eccleston said he didn't want to be involved in Who ever again.

He's not actually said that, and has said he wouldn't rule out playing the Doctor for radio (ie, Big Finish) - and he's apparently very good with kids who want to talk to the Doctor (indeed, says he loves that). But for now, it's something he's moved on from to other roles.
For now. Maybe one day.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Just something I was hoping for. When The Doctor said, "Come with me," my brain went in a million directions, thinking about all of the wonderful possibilities (and how such an ending would redeem the rest of the episode), but then Lucy shot him. Bah.

I would have loved that (and I too am not keen on the episode) John Simm was fantastic and it could have turned The Master into a similar character to Farscape's Scorpius - he'd be confined on the TARDIS but present in each episode, sometimes they'd need him to help, sometimes he'd try to hinder - could have been a fantastic dynamic. Of course, The Doctor could never fully rehabilitate him, but he might have eventually become an antihero of sorts, a rough-around-the-edges version of The Doctor (a role I could see Jenny fulfilling, actually, if she's ever brought back).

Yes, exactly! It's probably because of that dynamic that Scorpius is my favorite villain of all time. I would have loved to have seen that kind of dynamic between The Doctor and The Master. Lost opportunity, nothing more.

1. I thought the episode was good but not great. The faults I thought was the whole duex ex machina (sp?) thing at the end. There always seems to be an answer for everything and nothing hanging. Plus there's the whole concept of the retcon button, where Donna's memory is wiped due to the whole 'power you cannot handle'. It's been done with Rose but she wasn't overtly affected to the point that her memory was wiped. Donna's is...and I found that to be kind of ... well ... not that great.

While I love the tragedy of the situation for Donna (I'm a sucker for tragedies), I do agree that it was odd that The Doctor couldn't save Donna like he had Rose. That was something that popped in my head while rewatching "Journey's End" just now. Surely the Heart of the TARDIS would be more devastating than a Time Lord's mind. That's not to say a Time Lord's mind isn't truly awesome, because it is, but the Heart of the TARDIS seemed BIGGER.

The part annoyed me the most was when Jack and the others just started physically shoving them around. I thought the Daleks had developed ways of close-combat fighting (the sucker can be used as a weapon, and supposedly they can cause anyone who physically touches their casings to burst into flames).

Yes, that bugged me, too, both times I watched "Journey's End." I felt like Jackie in that scene, standing there with my fists on my hips and thinking "Okay, enough of this silliness! This is serious business!"

2 - If so, what about the universe-destroying side-effect? Was that just glossed over? Was it a necessary evil because Rose had to warn the Doctor? Was it actually the whole reason Caan was able to break the Time Lock and start the whole thing in motion, even though it was done in response to that, in a wibbly-wobbly kind of way?

Yeah, I think that's what we're suppose to get from it. Rose slowly breaks down the walls of the dimensions in order to reach The Doctor, which causes a crack into the Time War, which Caan falls through (and who knows, maybe she's also responsible for the Dalek in "Dalek" and the Emperor in "Bad Wolf"/"The Parting of the Ways"). As for what happened to the breaking down of the universes, I guess The Doctor sealed it all back up again. THIS TIME FOR REAL!!!

3 - Where does the last scene of "Partners in Crime" fit in? We had been led to believe (or at least I had led myself to believe) that the season would circle back around to that point and we'd see Rose's POV on that scene. But nothing of the sort happened.

Where did you get that impression? The only thing I ever read was on the speculation level. From seeing that scene from Rose's POV to Donna's mom finding the discarded Sonic Pen, which would lead to the finale.

Flicking a few switches to make all the Daleks blow up (umm, how?) was quite anti-climatic.

It was okay. The best scene was the one with the Doctor and Wilf. Bernard Cribbins for the next companion!

NOT. Sorry for the capitals, but this is important. She did NOT save the world by flicking a few switches. She saved the world by being a unique combination of Human and Time Lord, which allowed for ideas and solutions neither had ever considered, thus allowing her to know which switches to flick. Important distinction.

Well put. I've been having issues with this as well, but largely because the scene goes by so fast that it's hard to take everything in and come to the conclusion that you did.

And I thought it was a good way of diffusing the growing tension by solving the problem with a bit of comedy.

Which is something the producers (NOT just Davies) think is very important to the show and I agree.

At last we finally get to see the TARDIS with a full crew!

Yeah, I don't know if it's a difference between old-Who and nu-Who fans, but I have always known that it was designed for multiple pilots, and that's why (a), the Doctor is always running around like a mad bastard, and (b) the Tardis doesn't always work properly. I was not surprised by this revelation in the slightest, because it's not a revelation, it's established backstory.

Oh, I agree absolutely. As I said earlier in the thread, I think it has even been mentioned in the classic series. I want to say a Second Doctor story.

The Ode to Donna at the end with The Doctor honoring her memory by sharing to her mum and grandfather the effect she had on the universe. Lost of memory, just as some poster predicted.

Yes, that was touching. It redefines the moments at the end of "The Fires of Pompeii" and "Planet of the Ood" for me. Those had initially seemed to be cases of people worshipping the Doctor like a god - a re-run of themes from season 2. In retrospect, I see that it was actually to show that Donna will be remembered by people out there, even if she doesn't remember herself. And that's lovely.

Oh, that's a very good point. I had forgotten about those particularly bits. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)

2 - If so, what about the universe-destroying side-effect? Was that just glossed over? Was it a necessary evil because Rose had to warn the Doctor? Was it actually the whole reason Caan was able to break the Time Lock and start the whole thing in motion, even though it was done in response to that, in a wibbly-wobbly kind of way?

I'm off the opinion that Rose's narcissism -- err, I mean her desire to return to the Doctor by breaking through the walls of the worlds led to the breaking of the Time Lock, which lead to everything we saw in season four. It's all Rose's fault, basically.

And that's why the Doctor dumped Rose back on Pete's World, even though there was no real need to do so -- it was punishment for Rose.

3 - Where does the last scene of "Partners in Crime" fit in? We had been led to believe (or at least I had led myself to believe) that the season would circle back around to that point and we'd see Rose's POV on that scene. But nothing of the sort happened.

RTD says in Doctor Who Magazine 395 that Rose's appearance there wasn't meant to be foreshadowing in that way. Rose's visit wasn't in Donna's future. She wasn't there to warn Donna about anything. She was there, looking for the Doctor. He does say that he thought it was interesting that fans assumed online that we'd come back to that scene from Rose's supposedly future POV, even though that belief was completely without foundation.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I rewatched "The Stolen Earth" and "Journey's End" back to back and my feelings about "Journey's End" have improved. I was a bit afraid the two wouldn't flow together, but for the most part, they remained consistent. My only problems with "Journey's End" that still remain are the idea of the flipping switches ending (although lvsxy808's explation as quoted in my previous post alleviates some of my concern), Davies' "having the cake and eating it, too" ending for Rose, and "The Three-Fold Man." I still think it would have been far more interesting to see The Seventh or the Eighth Doctor and a possible Eleventh Doctor alongside The Tenth Doctor, but I can understand why Davies didn't go with that.

In the end, for me, "Journey's End" is the best episode 13 so far and the two-parter is the best finale of the new series, but it's not better than "The Stolen Earth" (or "The Sound of Drums") and it's not in my top five favorite stories of the season. I'll give it an Above Average, although I think it's a pointless vote considering how I'm seeing some posters vote. "It was okay...Above Average" or "It was GREAT (except for this and that and another)...Average." This is one of those clear cases where this grading scale just doesn't work.

Yes, I didn't quite buy the Doctor's remark that these Daleks were the REAL deal.

Actually.. they behave a lot like the Daleks from the original series (shouting impotently, panicking, blowing up if someone mucks their power supply). So yep, they are the real deal!
But that aside, I'm largely with you on this - Journey's End has pretty much undone all the work Dalek did (and had to do) to make them a threat rather than a joke.

Which is exactly why I believe the Daleks should be given a couple years break. That should give the writers enough time to figure out how to make them look like a convincing enemy again.

I've been wanting the Daleks to take a break since "Doomsday," more so with each passing story. That being said, I enjoyed them in this story (particularly the Supreme Dalek and Davros). I doubt we'll see them in any of the specials and here's hoping they don't show up in Series 5 either.

In the meantime, I would actually like to see more of the Sontarans, the Cybermen (preferably from our universe), and the Judoon.

Amen on all counts (particularly the notation on the Cybermen). Plus I wouldn't mind seeing the Ice Warriors returning, just not in an epic, takeover the world, the galaxy, the universe, whatever scenario.

 

[USS KG5]

In the meantime, I would actually like to see more of the Sontarans, the Cybermen (preferably from our universe), and the Judoon.

Amen on all counts (particularly the notation on the Cybermen). Plus I wouldn't mind seeing the Ice Warriors returning, just not in an epic, takeover the world, the galaxy, the universe, whatever scenario.

You will see the Cybermen at Christmas, although it is likely that they sneaked through from the void rather than being cybermen from our universe.

Still, be good to see them again, and in an historical story too.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

In the meantime, I would actually like to see more of the Sontarans, the Cybermen (preferably from our universe), and the Judoon.

Amen on all counts (particularly the notation on the Cybermen). Plus I wouldn't mind seeing the Ice Warriors returning, just not in an epic, takeover the world, the galaxy, the universe, whatever scenario.

You will see the Cybermen at Christmas, although it is likely that they sneaked through from the void rather than being cybermen from our universe.

Still, be good to see them again, and in an historical story too.

Yeah, I knew that. I'm looking forward to it, especially if the rumors are true that

Spoiler: Christmas Special

The Cybermen seen in that episode are actually the Mondas Cybermen. Just a rumor, mind you, but I still have my fingers crossed.

 

[wamdue]

Yeah, I knew that. I'm looking forward to it, especially if the rumors are true that

Spoiler: Christmas Special

The Cybermen seen in that episode are actually the Mondas Cybermen. Just a rumor, mind you, but I still have my fingers crossed.

Spoiler: Christmas Special

The Cybermen feature seem to have the Cybus Industries logo on them