Purity. They see themselves as the superior race in the universe and therefore the only species worthy of existing. Once everyone is dead, they'll reach nirvana.
Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
- Thread starter Servo
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Eh, they'd figure something out. They've been trying for so long, they deserve a shot at seeing it happen. As for what Davros gets out of it, well, he can spin around in his little chair getting dizzy with his godlike powers of life and death, having finally released that damn hypothetical virus.
Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Because, looking at "Voyage of the Damned," I just don't see anyplace for the Master to go, unless he filled the yuppie character's role.
"Time-Crash" with two Doctors and the Master could have been fun, though.
Were there actually plans for that, or was that just something you were hoping for?
Because, looking at "Voyage of the Damned," I just don't see anyplace for the Master to go, unless he filled the yuppie character's role.
"Time-Crash" with two Doctors and the Master could have been fun, though.
Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Just something I was hoping for. When The Doctor said, "Come with me," my brain went in a million directions, thinking about all of the wonderful possibilities (and how such an ending would redeem the rest of the episode), but then Lucy shot him. Bah.
Just something I was hoping for. When The Doctor said, "Come with me," my brain went in a million directions, thinking about all of the wonderful possibilities (and how such an ending would redeem the rest of the episode), but then Lucy shot him. Bah.
Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Maybe not Davros but I've daydreamed of a Dalek as a companion. Probably only for a couple of episodes but it would be fun to have an antagonistic unworthy companion somehow forced to go along with the Doctor plus it'd be fun to see how it would approach "helping" in the adventures.
Maybe not Davros but I've daydreamed of a Dalek as a companion. Probably only for a couple of episodes but it would be fun to have an antagonistic unworthy companion somehow forced to go along with the Doctor plus it'd be fun to see how it would approach "helping" in the adventures.
Like I said, I imagine they might do something like create new lifeforms for the purpose of killing - like sport/cattle.
It's kind of like the question of what would Skynet do if it actually killed John Connor and rest of the human race.
9.4 million viewers is brilliant! But ooooh so close to breaking the big 10.
When it comes right down to it, I think the Doctors sollution re Rose and his alt self was a more a matter of convenience than anything else. He couldn't have a slightly out of control version of himself running around, and judging by his reactions through most of the episode, he'd pretty much finally 'gotten over' Rose, and in fact felt a bit embarassed by their relationship. So he dumping them both over in the alt so he could essentially forget about them. A bit cruel and inelegant, but probably the best solution for a bad situation.
When it comes right down to it, I think the Doctors sollution re Rose and his alt self was a more a matter of convenience than anything else. He couldn't have a slightly out of control version of himself running around, and judging by his reactions through most of the episode, he'd pretty much finally 'gotten over' Rose, and in fact felt a bit embarassed by their relationship. So he dumping them both over in the alt so he could essentially forget about them. A bit cruel and inelegant, but probably the best solution for a bad situation.
I had gotten that feeling, too, but didn't say anything because I wasn't sure if it was my bias showing or not. It's good to see that I wasn't the only who felt that way.
I was expecting 9 - 10 million for this
Yeah, it seemed to me that Rose wanted to take up where she left off and play the Big Wuv Me So Special The Two Muskateers Ride Again! game, but the Doctor goes his own way, as we know. He dropped her off at home then buggered right off. Hehehehe.
As I've said before - I DO NOT dislike Rose - but her self-centered point of view regarding the Doctor winds me right up. As far as I'm concerned, her story is - hopefully - finished.
Not necessarily to protect the Doctor, but to stand up and fight the bad guys. The Doctor can't protect Earth from invasion on his own, he's always needed help. If he can't show ordinary humans like Rose and Donna to stand up and fight, Earth might as well just surrender to the next invaders.
Also, did I miss it, or did they ever explain the source of "The darkness is coming"?
I would have loved that (and I too am not keen on the episode) John Simm was fantastic and it could have turned The Master into a similar character to Farscape's Scorpius - he'd be confined on the TARDIS but present in each episode, sometimes they'd need him to help, sometimes he'd try to hinder - could have been a fantastic dynamic. Of course, The Doctor could never fully rehabilitate him, but he might have eventually become an antihero of sorts, a rough-around-the-edges version of The Doctor (a role I could see Jenny fulfilling, actually, if she's ever brought back).
CutterJohn and emh:
I can see your points.
However, if the theme was to have the Doctor now feel awkward about Rose's feelings towards him, why not have a meaningful conversation about this occur, or even let us the audience see the Doctor's growing embarrassment develop as a narrative theme. What we have had for two seasons has been the Doctor pining for Rose, her imminent return then highlighted as a major event for the Doctor and the TV series as a whole. What we got as a pay-off in the last 2 episodes was the Rose charcter given a cameo part no bigger in the end than that of, say, Capt. Jack. There was no exploration at all of where these two charcters now stand in relation to one another. I'm not a specific Rose-fan, I'd be happy wherever they took her character as long as it make sense within a narrative. Rose was just used as a plot device, her role could have been assigned to any other individual from a parallel universe. There was none of the charcter development that the trumpeting of the return demanded.
I think that had the Doctor fallen 'out of love' with Rose ,so to speak, then his clone (who apparently had the same thoughts/emotions as him) would not have been able to tell Rose that he 'loved her'. Nor would the 'real' Doctor have replied 'Does it need to be said' to Rose's Doomsday question before returning to the Tardis in sadness. Indeed, Confidential calls the scene another example of the Doctor sacrificing his happiness, a 'tragedy' etc. But where was the narrative explanation for this 'tragedy'? Even Billie Piper said that it was 'weird' and 'wrong' in Confidential that Rose could be happy with a copy, rather than the real version of someone she loves. Why should she be forced to return to a parallel universe with a 'genocidal' version of the Doctor? Not least, it was established as well that he isn't identical to the 'real' doctor as he inherited some of Donna's traits.Why should the Doctor feel that he must deny the chance to ever see her again, when she's spent 2 yeears trying to get to him?
I can see your points.
However, if the theme was to have the Doctor now feel awkward about Rose's feelings towards him, why not have a meaningful conversation about this occur, or even let us the audience see the Doctor's growing embarrassment develop as a narrative theme. What we have had for two seasons has been the Doctor pining for Rose, her imminent return then highlighted as a major event for the Doctor and the TV series as a whole. What we got as a pay-off in the last 2 episodes was the Rose charcter given a cameo part no bigger in the end than that of, say, Capt. Jack. There was no exploration at all of where these two charcters now stand in relation to one another. I'm not a specific Rose-fan, I'd be happy wherever they took her character as long as it make sense within a narrative. Rose was just used as a plot device, her role could have been assigned to any other individual from a parallel universe. There was none of the charcter development that the trumpeting of the return demanded.
I think that had the Doctor fallen 'out of love' with Rose ,so to speak, then his clone (who apparently had the same thoughts/emotions as him) would not have been able to tell Rose that he 'loved her'. Nor would the 'real' Doctor have replied 'Does it need to be said' to Rose's Doomsday question before returning to the Tardis in sadness. Indeed, Confidential calls the scene another example of the Doctor sacrificing his happiness, a 'tragedy' etc. But where was the narrative explanation for this 'tragedy'? Even Billie Piper said that it was 'weird' and 'wrong' in Confidential that Rose could be happy with a copy, rather than the real version of someone she loves. Why should she be forced to return to a parallel universe with a 'genocidal' version of the Doctor? Not least, it was established as well that he isn't identical to the 'real' doctor as he inherited some of Donna's traits.Why should the Doctor feel that he must deny the chance to ever see her again, when she's spent 2 yeears trying to get to him?
Altogether now!
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!
More ballsy and entertaining than last year, a 5/5 extravaganza that succeeds in most areas, although the logical side in me is glad that RTD is handing over the reigns to the more sobre minded Grand Moff, who will break the current series pattern which has gotten a little stale since last year and I want something much different than this come 2010.
The Daleks were handled well for the most part, even though they should be buried now for at least three years, and you should've seen Davros and a few hundred Daleks escape the exploding Crucible.
Also the Dalek taskforce featured here doesn't seem to be quite as formidible as the Doctor makes them out to be, due to the seemingly poorer quality of their ships and casings, and that planatoid lair (the Crucible) being cobbled together. In fact they seemed more degenerate and insane than the Dalek Emperor's dogmatic hybrid force, even though they had access to some very heavy technology that would make Q wet himself (although that would be down to Davros and perhaps Caan being the Kaled growth templates).
CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!
More ballsy and entertaining than last year, a 5/5 extravaganza that succeeds in most areas, although the logical side in me is glad that RTD is handing over the reigns to the more sobre minded Grand Moff, who will break the current series pattern which has gotten a little stale since last year and I want something much different than this come 2010.
The Daleks were handled well for the most part, even though they should be buried now for at least three years, and you should've seen Davros and a few hundred Daleks escape the exploding Crucible.
Also the Dalek taskforce featured here doesn't seem to be quite as formidible as the Doctor makes them out to be, due to the seemingly poorer quality of their ships and casings, and that planatoid lair (the Crucible) being cobbled together. In fact they seemed more degenerate and insane than the Dalek Emperor's dogmatic hybrid force, even though they had access to some very heavy technology that would make Q wet himself (although that would be down to Davros and perhaps Caan being the Kaled growth templates).
A couple of points -
1. I thought the episode was good but not great. The faults I thought was the whole duex ex machina (sp?) thing at the end. There always seems to be an answer for everything and nothing hanging. Plus there's the whole concept of the retcon button, where Donna's memory is wiped due to the whole 'power you cannot handle'. It's been done with Rose but she wasn't overtly affected to the point that her memory was wiped. Donna's is...and I found that to be kind of ... well ... not that great.
There also seems to be a lack of follow up on a certain issue. The Doctor always appears to be averting the issue. Couldn't he have let Donna be cured in the case of Rose? I know that they are completely two individual cases, however, they both had the 'power' (Rose/the heart of the Tardis, Donna/the Doctor's knowledge).
2. The whole thing about the second Tenth Doctor - the essential 'dropping' him off to Rose. I think the other posters went on about that.
3. It's odd how the other companions seem to be generally less useful when collected in numbers. In the case of Martha she seems to be 'enlightened' rather than doing something (i.e. actually pressing the button for the large nuclear bomb network) with that deed given over to the Doctor (i.e. smashing the Dalek fleet). Captain Jack is there for the ride.
Otherwise from that ...
1. I thought the episode was good but not great. The faults I thought was the whole duex ex machina (sp?) thing at the end. There always seems to be an answer for everything and nothing hanging. Plus there's the whole concept of the retcon button, where Donna's memory is wiped due to the whole 'power you cannot handle'. It's been done with Rose but she wasn't overtly affected to the point that her memory was wiped. Donna's is...and I found that to be kind of ... well ... not that great.
There also seems to be a lack of follow up on a certain issue. The Doctor always appears to be averting the issue. Couldn't he have let Donna be cured in the case of Rose? I know that they are completely two individual cases, however, they both had the 'power' (Rose/the heart of the Tardis, Donna/the Doctor's knowledge).
2. The whole thing about the second Tenth Doctor - the essential 'dropping' him off to Rose. I think the other posters went on about that.
3. It's odd how the other companions seem to be generally less useful when collected in numbers. In the case of Martha she seems to be 'enlightened' rather than doing something (i.e. actually pressing the button for the large nuclear bomb network) with that deed given over to the Doctor (i.e. smashing the Dalek fleet). Captain Jack is there for the ride.
Otherwise from that ...
Eminence
Fleet Captain
I agree. Even though I don't think the Doctor and Rose should have 'gone back in time' and picked up where they left off; one can't deny that the Doctor has been pining for Rose all this time as well -- just look at Martha's statement "OMG, he finally found you." And yet when they finally meet, he is still afraid of his feelings. I sort of understand what happens next in terms of a plot device (the clone part was just weird though), and this is a show after all, so there will be some limitations, but I'm not sure if this was the best way to resolve this particular plot thread.
The Donna reset felt like a bit of a cop-out as well.
It was... okay. I voted Above Average, but only because there isn't something between Average and Above Average. I liked the bits with Donna and her granddad. I liked the parts where you could see what the Doctor was feeling.
But quite frankly, Rose and her lot were utterly pointless. What, precisely, was the reason for her return? Oh yeah, she had to warn the Doctor of the coming darkness. That took three episodes? And when she shows up, what's her big plan for stopping this horrible threat? "I need to find the Doctor and hope he can come up with a plan to save everything." Personally, I would have, I don't know, brought more than three guns between myself, Mickey and Jackie, if I was expecting to kick some ass. I would have tried to gather the most advanced weapon, bomb, or tech I could find to use against aliens that I could carry with me... in case, for whatever reason, I don't happen to run across the Doctor and need to try and stop them myself.
She had no real information to give him--it's kind of hard to fight "the coming darkness" and the 'stars going out', and what she did tell him about the future when the Doctor asked was that it was the Daleks. Um, yeah--all the Daleks around them wasn't a clue that maybe they were behind it all?
Rose and Mickey and Jackie (and the only thing the latter two did was save Sarah Jane, which could have been rewritten so that after she saw the TARDIS captured, simply gave herself up to give herself the opportunity of being in the right place at the right time to help the Doctor without either of them rescuing her) did nothing to help avert the crisis. They mostly just stood around. At least the other companions brought something with them to fight (okay, Jack just brought his gun, too, but then he can't die permenantly as far as he knows, so he could try and use pretty much anything in hopes of stopping the Daleks).
Martha had the Austerhagen key, which would have destroyed Earth, had she simply used it instead of giving the Daleks a chance to back off--which is something the Doctor also would have done if he was in Martha or Jack's place, he would have offered the Daleks the opportunity to back off. That's something that Davros does not understand about the Doctor's "Children of Time", I think--he just thinks that the Doctor made them into his warriors--but the Doctor also taught them that fighting should only be used as a last resort. Sarah Jane's little warp star on a necklace that she gave to Captain Jack would have taken out the station they were on and all the Daleks there, but again, he gave them a chance to back off before using it. They were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to stop the Daleks if necessary.
Granted, neither the Austerhagen key nor the warp star were used either--but those were real threats to the Daleks, to their plan, to some degree. Especially if Martha and the UNIT operatives had set off the nukes and Jack had set off the warp star at the same moment--no guarantee that they would wipe out all of the Daleks, but they quite probably could have taken out a significant portion of them.
Rose and company had nothing to lose in this universe (well, Rose had the Doctor--or thought she did--I suppose, but she didn't really fight for him, either) in this battle, and for me, that made them superfluous. I mean, Davros ranted about his plan wiping out all life across all the universes, and that rant provided the same information that Rose did about what was going on.
And yes, I admit I don't like Rose. There are a few episodes where I thought she was okay, but I'm sorry, I honestly, truly did not see a need for her in this.
I also would have liked to have a bit more with the Shadow Proclamation and the Judoon. It did seem rather pointless to just have that one scene in TSE and nothing else. Yeah, sure, they pointed out to the Doctor that there were other places besides Earth missing, but that's all they did... it still took the Doctor and Donna to put it all together what was going on.
I am saddened by Donna's fate, which in many ways is far, far worse than Adric's. At least Adric died. She doesn't even remember just how special she actually was. That's sad. Yes, I understand that she can't miss what she doesn't remember--but being one of those who cringed when informed that CT was reprising her role this season, I have to say that I was most pleasantly surprised by her performance (for the most part, there were still a few times when I cringed this season), and I actually felt something when she was left behind at the end, bereft of those memories and back to her RB self.
I do hope that the Doctor runs into Wilf again, he was one of the highlights of this season. Even if it's nothing more than a quick scene where Wilf tells the Doctor how Donna is getting along.
Even if Donna can't remember the Doctor, maybe the Doctor can give Donna a little help like he did with Martha. Not working for UNIT of course (if there's anything left of it, that is), but maybe, just maybe, someplace where how much she actually cares about others can shine through, and maybe then she can achieve for herself on Earth what her travels with the Doctor did for her... and she can grow back into the person most of us had grown to like by the end of this season.
But quite frankly, Rose and her lot were utterly pointless. What, precisely, was the reason for her return? Oh yeah, she had to warn the Doctor of the coming darkness. That took three episodes? And when she shows up, what's her big plan for stopping this horrible threat? "I need to find the Doctor and hope he can come up with a plan to save everything." Personally, I would have, I don't know, brought more than three guns between myself, Mickey and Jackie, if I was expecting to kick some ass. I would have tried to gather the most advanced weapon, bomb, or tech I could find to use against aliens that I could carry with me... in case, for whatever reason, I don't happen to run across the Doctor and need to try and stop them myself.
She had no real information to give him--it's kind of hard to fight "the coming darkness" and the 'stars going out', and what she did tell him about the future when the Doctor asked was that it was the Daleks. Um, yeah--all the Daleks around them wasn't a clue that maybe they were behind it all?
Rose and Mickey and Jackie (and the only thing the latter two did was save Sarah Jane, which could have been rewritten so that after she saw the TARDIS captured, simply gave herself up to give herself the opportunity of being in the right place at the right time to help the Doctor without either of them rescuing her) did nothing to help avert the crisis. They mostly just stood around. At least the other companions brought something with them to fight (okay, Jack just brought his gun, too, but then he can't die permenantly as far as he knows, so he could try and use pretty much anything in hopes of stopping the Daleks).
Martha had the Austerhagen key, which would have destroyed Earth, had she simply used it instead of giving the Daleks a chance to back off--which is something the Doctor also would have done if he was in Martha or Jack's place, he would have offered the Daleks the opportunity to back off. That's something that Davros does not understand about the Doctor's "Children of Time", I think--he just thinks that the Doctor made them into his warriors--but the Doctor also taught them that fighting should only be used as a last resort. Sarah Jane's little warp star on a necklace that she gave to Captain Jack would have taken out the station they were on and all the Daleks there, but again, he gave them a chance to back off before using it. They were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to stop the Daleks if necessary.
Granted, neither the Austerhagen key nor the warp star were used either--but those were real threats to the Daleks, to their plan, to some degree. Especially if Martha and the UNIT operatives had set off the nukes and Jack had set off the warp star at the same moment--no guarantee that they would wipe out all of the Daleks, but they quite probably could have taken out a significant portion of them.
Rose and company had nothing to lose in this universe (well, Rose had the Doctor--or thought she did--I suppose, but she didn't really fight for him, either) in this battle, and for me, that made them superfluous. I mean, Davros ranted about his plan wiping out all life across all the universes, and that rant provided the same information that Rose did about what was going on.
And yes, I admit I don't like Rose. There are a few episodes where I thought she was okay, but I'm sorry, I honestly, truly did not see a need for her in this.
I also would have liked to have a bit more with the Shadow Proclamation and the Judoon. It did seem rather pointless to just have that one scene in TSE and nothing else. Yeah, sure, they pointed out to the Doctor that there were other places besides Earth missing, but that's all they did... it still took the Doctor and Donna to put it all together what was going on.
I am saddened by Donna's fate, which in many ways is far, far worse than Adric's. At least Adric died. She doesn't even remember just how special she actually was. That's sad. Yes, I understand that she can't miss what she doesn't remember--but being one of those who cringed when informed that CT was reprising her role this season, I have to say that I was most pleasantly surprised by her performance (for the most part, there were still a few times when I cringed this season), and I actually felt something when she was left behind at the end, bereft of those memories and back to her RB self.
I do hope that the Doctor runs into Wilf again, he was one of the highlights of this season. Even if it's nothing more than a quick scene where Wilf tells the Doctor how Donna is getting along.
Even if Donna can't remember the Doctor, maybe the Doctor can give Donna a little help like he did with Martha. Not working for UNIT of course (if there's anything left of it, that is), but maybe, just maybe, someplace where how much she actually cares about others can shine through, and maybe then she can achieve for herself on Earth what her travels with the Doctor did for her... and she can grow back into the person most of us had grown to like by the end of this season.