Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Weird, drawing a blank on that, have to watch it again.
Weird, drawing a blank on that, have to watch it again.
Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
- Thread starter Servo
- Start date
I say "Nay!" to the naysayers! Voted fantastic.
Point One. Dalek Caan decided to save Davros. AFTER that, when he could see time, he realised this was A Bad Idea, and helped reshape events, using his knowledge, to alter the outcome. Dalek Caan, hero of the universe - who knew?
Point Two. On Bad Wolf Bay beach: Doctor says to Rose, "He was born in blood and fire. He's like I was when wew first met. You saved me. You have to save him". Or something like that.. Hence he was always going to stay in alt.uni. with her.
Point Three. Donna. Think of who she was in TRB. "Her idea of excitement is a new flavour Pringle!" said her groom. Think how she changed even in the time between TRB and PiC. All that wonder she saw, all that glory. All gone. Really gone. She's back to the "textmetextmetextme!" shallow person she used to be. But, as the Doctor said, for a moment she was the most important person in the universe, whole worlds owe their existence to her. As someone said above, just imagine the memories of the best days of your life taken from you. Sure, you wouldn't miss something you didn't have, but it's tragic, really tragic. I loved DoctorDonna, she was smart and sassy and funny and wise (and as someone said above, a little bit sexy!), and we only got to see it for a few minutes. Tragic. Catherine Tate did some stunning work in this series, and really does deserve a BAFTA, but probably won't get it, because it's 'sci fi'.
([mild rant] Which leads to one of my favourite talking points about SF. If drama is ordinarty people in extraordianry situations, good SF drama is ordinary people in really extraordianry situatiosn, where even more pressure can be brought to bear, showing us what being human means. This should be more deepely appreciated by the deeper entertainment prioducing and awarding people. [/mild rant] But I digress).
Closely followed by Bernard Cribbins. His last line was the one that really reduced me to tears (again). "Every time I look up at the stars I'll say thanks". Just magic.
Point Four. I'd like seeing all the companuions working together. And Davros's point about how the Doctor turns them into weapons was well stated. I suppose the difference is they choose to become that person.
Point Five. Davros. Magic, magic work by the actor playing him. Megalomania turned up to eleven! And do you know what I think would have happened if they had managed to detonate the reality bomb? Eventually the Daleks would have turned on one another, because that would be all that as left. I think Caan saw that too.
In some ways I'm glad the RTD era is over, it seemed to be struggling to be better all the time. I think he succeeded here, but only by the narrowest of margins, and there's NO WAY he could have done it again next year. But like others I'd like to say thanks to him, he has done an amazing, amazing job of bringing Who back. It's practically the BBC's flagship show - who could have predicted that for a little SF kids' show, especially one that started in 1964?
As for Moffatt, if you haven't seen 'Jekyll'... go see it now. It, along with his Who eps, might give you a clue as to what a season of Who under his guidance will be like.
And now... only 142 days to Xmas!
Point One. Dalek Caan decided to save Davros. AFTER that, when he could see time, he realised this was A Bad Idea, and helped reshape events, using his knowledge, to alter the outcome. Dalek Caan, hero of the universe - who knew?
Point Two. On Bad Wolf Bay beach: Doctor says to Rose, "He was born in blood and fire. He's like I was when wew first met. You saved me. You have to save him". Or something like that.. Hence he was always going to stay in alt.uni. with her.
Point Three. Donna. Think of who she was in TRB. "Her idea of excitement is a new flavour Pringle!" said her groom. Think how she changed even in the time between TRB and PiC. All that wonder she saw, all that glory. All gone. Really gone. She's back to the "textmetextmetextme!" shallow person she used to be. But, as the Doctor said, for a moment she was the most important person in the universe, whole worlds owe their existence to her. As someone said above, just imagine the memories of the best days of your life taken from you. Sure, you wouldn't miss something you didn't have, but it's tragic, really tragic. I loved DoctorDonna, she was smart and sassy and funny and wise (and as someone said above, a little bit sexy!), and we only got to see it for a few minutes. Tragic. Catherine Tate did some stunning work in this series, and really does deserve a BAFTA, but probably won't get it, because it's 'sci fi'.
([mild rant] Which leads to one of my favourite talking points about SF. If drama is ordinarty people in extraordianry situations, good SF drama is ordinary people in really extraordianry situatiosn, where even more pressure can be brought to bear, showing us what being human means. This should be more deepely appreciated by the deeper entertainment prioducing and awarding people. [/mild rant] But I digress).
Closely followed by Bernard Cribbins. His last line was the one that really reduced me to tears (again). "Every time I look up at the stars I'll say thanks". Just magic.
Point Four. I'd like seeing all the companuions working together. And Davros's point about how the Doctor turns them into weapons was well stated. I suppose the difference is they choose to become that person.
Point Five. Davros. Magic, magic work by the actor playing him. Megalomania turned up to eleven! And do you know what I think would have happened if they had managed to detonate the reality bomb? Eventually the Daleks would have turned on one another, because that would be all that as left. I think Caan saw that too.
In some ways I'm glad the RTD era is over, it seemed to be struggling to be better all the time. I think he succeeded here, but only by the narrowest of margins, and there's NO WAY he could have done it again next year. But like others I'd like to say thanks to him, he has done an amazing, amazing job of bringing Who back. It's practically the BBC's flagship show - who could have predicted that for a little SF kids' show, especially one that started in 1964?
As for Moffatt, if you haven't seen 'Jekyll'... go see it now. It, along with his Who eps, might give you a clue as to what a season of Who under his guidance will be like.
And now... only 142 days to Xmas!
I have one word for this episode: Brilliant.
I enjoyed the irony of the original Doc telling the other one he's committed genocide for killing all the Daleks, ignoring the fact that he did that himself to end the Time War. True we never saw it, but he admitted it himself in the first series (first new series. See "Dalek" and "Parting Of Ways")
and then theres the Racnoss
You'd think that incarnations like the First, Sixth, and Ninth Doctors would be the reason for an eventuality like the Valeyard. But you know what? I think it may actually be incarnations like the Fifth and Tenth. They're full of repressed rage and anger. Christ, man, go to a shrink and get some therapy. Face those demons. Have a jellybaby! Stop being such a killjoy.
and then theres the Racnoss
You'd think that incarnations like the First, Sixth, and Ninth Doctors would be the reason for an eventuality like the Valeyard. But you know what? I think it may actually be incarnations like the Fifth and Tenth. They're full of repressed rage and anger. Christ, man, go to a shrink and get some therapy. Face those demons. Have a jellybaby! Stop being such a killjoy.
And he did it (or tried to do it) in "Doomsday".
He's like fire and ice, with a pinch of hypocrite thrown in 
I don't think it was so much that Hand-Doctor committed genocide as that he didn't even feel bad about it. That's the place the Doctor was when he first met Rose, when he let Cassandra die, taunted the (ironically named) Last Dalek, and didn't have a second thought about Margaret Blane being executed. It's the place he went back to after he lost Rose and, it turns out, would've happily sat there reveling in the deaths of the Racnoss until he himself drowned with them.
He's not ignoring it- when he flat out says that the hand Doctor is who he was when he met Rose, that's what he means.
In addition to David cgc's point, I'd add that the problem is that genocide is the hand Doctor's first resort when he realizes the Daleks are still a threat. "Doomsday" (if it's a genocide at all, which I doubt; does the episode ever say that the Daleks and Cybermen can't survive in the Void?) is a desperate final option, not "Hmm, they're still dangerous... mass murder!"
Above average.
I was a bit disapointed.
Started off badly, but Bernard C helped it to a better ending.
I was a bit disapointed.
Started off badly, but Bernard C helped it to a better ending.
Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Just think we could have had Davros for companion in the X-mas special.
Just think we could have had Davros for companion in the X-mas special.
The phony regeneration started it off very very badly. Then the whole the Doctor turns his companion's into weapons thing popped up again. 
The Dalek Caan thing bumped it up. So did Rose's farewell. And then Donna's fate just ticked me off. Entertaining although ultimately annoying.
The Dalek Caan thing bumped it up. So did Rose's farewell. And then Donna's fate just ticked me off. Entertaining although ultimately annoying.
I need a hug.
that was beautiful.
Donna, I may have disliked you, but I never wished a fate like that upon you. couldn't you have found a space pirate to settle down with, one with a ship capable of intergalactic communication to call your granddad?
that was beautiful.
Donna, I may have disliked you, but I never wished a fate like that upon you. couldn't you have found a space pirate to settle down with, one with a ship capable of intergalactic communication to call your granddad?
I voted Above Average, for it had so much in it that I loved. But there was so much in it that annoyed me or irritated me or left me a little cold.
I think I'll be harping on this for months (sorry, all): I am so cut up about Donna.
Bloody fantastic drama, though.
I think I'll be harping on this for months (sorry, all): I am so cut up about Donna.
Bloody fantastic drama, though.
What is it with these people who cant understand people might have voted fantastic because they really, really enjoyed the episode?
If you don't like an episode, fine, but don't assume anyone that does, does so out of misguided loyalty, or because we only think we enjoyed it, but we didn't really, and time will prove you right.
If you don't like an episode, fine, but don't assume anyone that does, does so out of misguided loyalty, or because we only think we enjoyed it, but we didn't really, and time will prove you right.
agreed! That reduced me to tears.
yeah, that was very cool!K-9! He did it again! Making a surprise appearance in the end to save the day! Good ol' K-9!
yep and yep, looking forward to that.
that's my feeling about the episode atm.
I'm not going to read this whole thread but before I get to my review, I have two things to say as disclaimers:
1) I'm new to Doctor Who starting with the Eccleston year. I enjoy conversing with people here about the show, but don't quote me and then say something along the lines of "this guy appeared in the classic series" or something because I wouldn't know. If there is one thing I've noticed about this forum is that this show and forum seems to take on many similarities of Enterprise Season 4. Everyone loves it because it was a fanboys wet dream with so many references and so many cues to the original Star Trek that we almost forget (At least it feels to me) that we're supposed to be talking about that show itself and base it off of it's own qualities. It's hard to participate in a forum like this because I don't know what Tom Baker did or how the Daleks were created. One of the nice things about this new series is the fact that it is easily accessible to new viewers as well as old.
2) After thinking about these two shows, I wonder if I was just caught up in the moment of it all. I liked them and still thought they were awesome, but I really missed the quiet character moments that makes episodes cohernent instead of a shoot-em-up stunt show. In talking about this episode, I'm keeping that in mind.
So with that being said, it was well worth the wait but I only had to give it an Above Average. There was a lot of it that I liked and I had a ton of fun watching it, but given what came before, I wonder if they could have done a better job with this two parter than they did. First the good parts:
-I liked learning about Devros and kind of getting a crash course in history of the show. It was really fun watching the Doctor and Devros go at it and the adversarial role they both shared was really impressive. I hope this isn't the end of Devros but for some reason I was thinking about the Master from last year. Here's a guy who is pretty much an insane mad man, and a lot of what he said seemed awfully similar to what was said in last years finale.
-I really liked seeing everyone there that has been in this series together. Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane, Rose, Donna, the Doctor, Jackie, and Mickey was really cool to see these people again.
-All the goodbyes except for Rose and Donna's were really well done. I have a feeling Martha and Mickey are joining Torchwood and I think that will improve the show greatly.
-The reality bomb plot was actually impressive and brought on a great light show.
-I'm fine with the Doctor cloning but I'll get to that in what I didn't like.
-Dalek Caan turning was a great surprise and actually quite cool
-Loved seeing K-9 again.
Stuff I didn't like:
-Like I said before, I missed the quiet moments. I think this episode was trying to be more epic and ended up forgetting that it was an episode of a television series that prides itself on those quiet moments.
-I really didn't like what happened with Rose and Donna. I'm fine with the cloning thing, and even Rose and the Doctor clone being together, but where was that special moment between our doctor and Rose. Why couldn't we really get a goodbye that knocks our socks off on Bad Wolf Bay. Hell, a hug would have been much better than what we got. I really wish Rose was used better because the show prided itself on Billie Piper being back, but it ended up in disappointment. As for Donna, damn that was just sad what happened to her. How she responded to the Doctor was just really sad and really cut off the happy mood this episode should have ended with.
-I didn't like the whole Donna saving the universe by pushing buttons thing. It just seemed too convienant and kind of chicken out.
-As much as I liked the characters together, the more I think about it the more I wonder if it would have been better to spread thier apperences out more this season. I mean was Jack really necessary? Was Sarah Jane really necessary? Gwen and Ianto weren't even in the show and I wonder if Torchwood was necessary. Too much characters, too little room, and that lead to a "shoot-em-up" stunt show instead of an episode to wrap up what might be my favorite season.
Overall, I liked this one, it was fun, but it was too much. It seemed like it was trying too hard and maybe that was RTD trying to leave his mark. He left his mark alright but will his legacy as the guy who brought back Doctor Who be tarnished after this and the other stuff people complain about. I for one like him, but I do think he was trying to hard to make something epic and it fell a bit flat.
Above Average
1) I'm new to Doctor Who starting with the Eccleston year. I enjoy conversing with people here about the show, but don't quote me and then say something along the lines of "this guy appeared in the classic series" or something because I wouldn't know. If there is one thing I've noticed about this forum is that this show and forum seems to take on many similarities of Enterprise Season 4. Everyone loves it because it was a fanboys wet dream with so many references and so many cues to the original Star Trek that we almost forget (At least it feels to me) that we're supposed to be talking about that show itself and base it off of it's own qualities. It's hard to participate in a forum like this because I don't know what Tom Baker did or how the Daleks were created. One of the nice things about this new series is the fact that it is easily accessible to new viewers as well as old.
2) After thinking about these two shows, I wonder if I was just caught up in the moment of it all. I liked them and still thought they were awesome, but I really missed the quiet character moments that makes episodes cohernent instead of a shoot-em-up stunt show. In talking about this episode, I'm keeping that in mind.
So with that being said, it was well worth the wait but I only had to give it an Above Average. There was a lot of it that I liked and I had a ton of fun watching it, but given what came before, I wonder if they could have done a better job with this two parter than they did. First the good parts:
-I liked learning about Devros and kind of getting a crash course in history of the show. It was really fun watching the Doctor and Devros go at it and the adversarial role they both shared was really impressive. I hope this isn't the end of Devros but for some reason I was thinking about the Master from last year. Here's a guy who is pretty much an insane mad man, and a lot of what he said seemed awfully similar to what was said in last years finale.
-I really liked seeing everyone there that has been in this series together. Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane, Rose, Donna, the Doctor, Jackie, and Mickey was really cool to see these people again.
-All the goodbyes except for Rose and Donna's were really well done. I have a feeling Martha and Mickey are joining Torchwood and I think that will improve the show greatly.
-The reality bomb plot was actually impressive and brought on a great light show.
-I'm fine with the Doctor cloning but I'll get to that in what I didn't like.
-Dalek Caan turning was a great surprise and actually quite cool
-Loved seeing K-9 again.
Stuff I didn't like:
-Like I said before, I missed the quiet moments. I think this episode was trying to be more epic and ended up forgetting that it was an episode of a television series that prides itself on those quiet moments.
-I really didn't like what happened with Rose and Donna. I'm fine with the cloning thing, and even Rose and the Doctor clone being together, but where was that special moment between our doctor and Rose. Why couldn't we really get a goodbye that knocks our socks off on Bad Wolf Bay. Hell, a hug would have been much better than what we got. I really wish Rose was used better because the show prided itself on Billie Piper being back, but it ended up in disappointment. As for Donna, damn that was just sad what happened to her. How she responded to the Doctor was just really sad and really cut off the happy mood this episode should have ended with.
-I didn't like the whole Donna saving the universe by pushing buttons thing. It just seemed too convienant and kind of chicken out.
-As much as I liked the characters together, the more I think about it the more I wonder if it would have been better to spread thier apperences out more this season. I mean was Jack really necessary? Was Sarah Jane really necessary? Gwen and Ianto weren't even in the show and I wonder if Torchwood was necessary. Too much characters, too little room, and that lead to a "shoot-em-up" stunt show instead of an episode to wrap up what might be my favorite season.
Overall, I liked this one, it was fun, but it was too much. It seemed like it was trying too hard and maybe that was RTD trying to leave his mark. He left his mark alright but will his legacy as the guy who brought back Doctor Who be tarnished after this and the other stuff people complain about. I for one like him, but I do think he was trying to hard to make something epic and it fell a bit flat.
Above Average
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But right now I'm really quite down in the mouth about Donna. I'm really very upset about what happened to her. If Donna is left like this I don't think I'll ever forgive RTD.
These two things really bugged me too. Donna deserved better. I know she wasn't planning to return next year, but sheesh.
What he did to Rose just sucked.
Great Aunt or something perhaps; Gwyneth was single and so presumably had no children.
Another thing - towing a planet through space, uh, wouldn't the people sort of freeze to death??
And when Jackie used that device, why didn't she flip back to the parallel universe? How did she manage to teleport over to Mickey?
I'm not sure how to rate this episode. It was fantastic to see everyone together, and I love the Daleks. But it was just so absurd in places. I'll probably go with Average.