Destiny trilogy - speculations

[William Leisner]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

TPTB over at Pocket need to let loose some details and/or tranquilizers to help us all chill.

I vote for tranqs.

Only if they're in dart form, and I get to hold the gun.

Well, of course in dart form. You think I'm going to pin these freaks down, pry their jaws open, shove a pill down their gullet, and then rub under their chins 'til they swallow?

Don't worry. I'll give folks a head start.

Fatherhood's turned you soft, man...

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^ Actually, I was hoping for the opportunity to check my marksmanship. Been a while, and all that, and moving targets are more fun.

 

[danjamesb]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I'll just say that you really can't tell much about the style and substance of a book from its cover blurb.

No, quite right.

But people will judge it on the blurb - if they're browsing Amazon, or if they read the cover in a bookstore, the blurb is normally all they have to base their opinions on - and if they react in the same way as some people here, they're probably not going to buy it.

The reactions in this thread won't necessarily represent the whole readership, and there's probably a lot more to this trilogy than the summaries make clear, but people's impressions of the blurb do matter.

And it certainly isn't enthusing me.

 

[JD]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Yeah, but you have to remember, there is a pretty good chance that those aren't the final blurbs.

 

[Wowbagger]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Yeah, but you have to remember, there is a pretty good chance that those aren't the final blurbs.

Even if they are, it might not matter. Remember the back covers for The Janus Gate trilogy?

Regarding the Destiny revelations: I'm not judging anything until I have a copy of the first book in my hands, so don't take this as a slam, but does anybody else notice the close parallels to the plot of Star Trek: Armada II? It's eerie, really.

 

[Deano2099]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

But people will judge it on the blurb - if they're browsing Amazon, or if they read the cover in a bookstore, the blurb is normally all they have to base their opinions on - and if they react in the same way as some people here, they're probably not going to buy it.

Yup. And I'm pretty sure the marketing people know that. And your average reader browsing in a bookstore who doesn't follow every book released will probably go "Cool, Borg, awesome!". They're a hugely popular villain with casual Trek fans - they were popular when TNG first launched them, and were still popular by the time of First Contact (which out-grossed the other TNG movies easily).
The Borg are popular. Just because us lot are bored of them or find them one-dimensional, doesn't mean they won't sell books.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Just because us lot are bored of them or find them one-dimensional, doesn't mean they won't sell books.

It doesn't mean that they will, either. One can project just about any reaction onto the (probably real but largely hypothetical) "casual reader," and without access to private sales figures there's not even an imprecise way of knowing whether that judgment is justified. Even if people liked the Borg in 1989 or 1996, we can't tell how they feel in 2008, when the last television appearance of the Borg five years ago got the same mediocre ratings as other Star Trek episodes aired at the time.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Regarding the Destiny revelations: I'm not judging anything until I have a copy of the first book in my hands, so don't take this as a slam, but does anybody else notice the close parallels to the plot of Star Trek: Armada II? It's eerie, really.

If you strip a description down to the bare essentials and leave out all the crucial details, you can make almost any two things sound similar. "Crash survivors stranded on a Pacific island where bizarre phenomena occur and escape seems impossible" could describe Gilligan's Island as well as Lost.

I only see a superficial similarity between those cover blurbs and the Armada II description on Memory Alpha. The only thing they have in common is a Borg invasion via an unidentified access point which has some connection to a nebula. Everything else is completely different. That's not anywhere near being an eerily close parallel.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I renew the call for tranquilizers.

 

[Wowbagger]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Regarding the Destiny revelations: I'm not judging anything until I have a copy of the first book in my hands, so don't take this as a slam, but does anybody else notice the close parallels to the plot of Star Trek: Armada II? It's eerie, really.

If you strip a description down to the bare essentials and leave out all the crucial details, you can make almost any two things sound similar. "Crash survivors stranded on a Pacific island where bizarre phenomena occur and escape seems impossible" could describe Gilligan's Island as well as Lost.

Hence all the jokes about Gilligan's Island and the Lost island being the same. The similarity of the premise of the two shows has been noted many, many times.

"Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant through a secret passageway in a nebula, only to be found out by Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, which leads a massive Federation counterattack in the Delta Quadrant that fails against the strength of several hundred Borg Cubes, leading (albeit indirectly) to a virtually unopposed assault on the entire Alpha Quadrant by the Borg" is a damn sight closer to Destiny's blurb than, say, Coronation Street's.

I suppose the definition of "eerie" is up to you, but parallel? Heck, yeah.

I do expect Mr. Mack's dialogue will be rather better than Activision's.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I've been thinking about it...The recent surge of Borg material is sort of parallel to the fixation on Romulans that followed the Nemesis movie. The Romulan focus wasn't met with much criticism, though, because the Romulans had not had much focus-time in quite a while and even Nemesis itself was a little lacking on Romulan materials.

 

[Vastator]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Hence all the jokes about Gilligan's Island and the Lost island being the same. The similarity of the premise of the two shows has been noted many, many times.

"Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant through a secret passageway in a nebula, only to be found out by Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, which leads a massive Federation counterattack in the Delta Quadrant that fails against the strength of several hundred Borg Cubes, leading (albeit indirectly) to a virtually unopposed assault on the entire Alpha Quadrant by the Borg" is a damn sight closer to Destiny's blurb than, say, Coronation Street's.

I suppose the definition of "eerie" is up to you, but parallel? Heck, yeah.

I do expect Mr. Mack's dialogue will be rather better than Activision's.

If Destiny have the Cardassians attack the Federation during the invasion of Borg space with the Klingons defending their allies along with Species 8472 attacking the Collective then it will be eerie

 

[HIj'Qa]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Just a rough list of Borg-centric stories
NG# 42 Q WHO ( Borg. Q, Sonya Gomez
NG# 74-75 THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS (Shelby, Borg Wolf 359
GN VOY 10 Ghosts (the Borg Wolf 359
DS9 GN 6 Program 359 [Sisko holoprogram battling Wolf 359
SNW1(NG) Civil Disobedience [Q borg
NG (N) Vendetta
NG# 76 FAMILY
NG# 123 I BORG (Hugh
SNW2(VOY) Seventh Heaven ( Hugh Seven
NG# 152-153,NG (N) DESCENT (Sequel to BROTHERS and I BORG.
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness (Enab, former associate of Hugh
NG DC GN 47-50 The Worst of Both Worlds [borg
SNW VI Spec The Beginning [borg queen
M, N(NG), MS(NG) STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
SNW VII NG Full Circle [Hawk
SNW3(NG) A Private Victory (Hawk
ENT# 49 REGENERATION ( Borg
NF (N) No Limits Excalibur: Making a Difference [Korsmo First Contact
Star Trek: The Manga: Shinsei Shinsei Side Effects [birth of borg queen
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness ( Hugh of Borg.
N/N(NG)/DS9 (N) The Return ( Borg, Salatrel
Game Borg
VOY# 58 BLOOD FEVER (Vorik. the Borg
VOY# 59 UNITY
VOY# 68-69 SCORPION (7 of 9, species 8472
SNW2(VOY) A Ribbon for Rosie (7 of 9)
VOY# 74 THE RAVEN
VOY (N) Seven of Nine (the Skedans
SNW 9 VOY Maturation [annika becoming seven borg
VOY# 109-110 DARK FRONTIER
SNW4(VOY) Iridium-7 Tetrahydroxate Crystals Are a Girl's Best Friend ( Q Vash, the Borg Queen
VOY# 145-146 UNIMATRIX ZERO ( Borg Queen
VOY# 149 IMPERFECTION ( Borg children. )
VOY# 170-171, VOY (N) ENDGAME
every VOY ep with Seven
NG (N) Before Dishonor
(Star Trek: Corps of Engineers) The Light [borg
SNW 10 VOY The Day the Borg Came [borg
SNW VII Spec Forgotten Light [borg
SNW 8 Star Trek: Voyager This Drone [Seven

enough for me!

my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^ How could you forget:

SNW5 The Trouble with Borg Tribbles (Borg, tribbles)

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !

The blurbs say it will be Hernandez, and I'm inclined to believe that even if other stuff in there proves preliminary/incorrect.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

"Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant through a secret passageway in a nebula, only to be found out by Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, which leads a massive Federation counterattack in the Delta Quadrant that fails against the strength of several hundred Borg Cubes, leading (albeit indirectly) to a virtually unopposed assault on the entire Alpha Quadrant by the Borg" is a damn sight closer to Destiny's blurb than, say, Coronation Street's.

I suppose the definition of "eerie" is up to you, but parallel? Heck, yeah.

Again, that's only valid if you cherrypick the few points of similarity and ignore the far more numerous points where they differ. Which is ridiculous. It would only be valid to say there's a parallel if the points of similarity outnumber the points of difference. Which they very, very obviously do not. And that's just going from the stripped-down summaries of both works, which obviously leave out countless differences in substance, style, quality, you name it.

Basically you're arguing that a giraffe bears an uncanny resemblance to a shark because they both have two eyes, a mouth, vertebrae, forelimbs, a heart, a stomach, and bilateral symmetry. It is invalid to select a few isolated points that fit an arbitrary pattern, ignore the vast majority of points that conflict with that pattern, and claim that you have thereby proven the pattern.

 

[Wowbagger]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Harumph.

Christopher, would you argue that Nemesis and TWOK did not share an uncanny resemblence? There are radical differences, yes, but, when watching Nemesis for the third time (hey, I liked ST X), I couldn't shake the feeling that I was watching a rehash of Khan, Spock, and the Battle of the Mutara Nebula. To me, the parallels were striking: an embittered, half-mad nemesis with a link to the captain's past, bent on vaguely crazed revenge, culminating in an epic space battle in a spooky nebula. The captain himself beginning to feel old, with his most trusted advisor and friend there to support him--before said friend sacrifices himself to save his captain and his ship, dying in the process... but with hints that he may be resurrected in the next movie.

There were also striking differences. In substance, style, quality (that last in particular), and everything from characterization to plot structure. There was no parallel to the Big Frakking Thalaron Gun in TWOK, and the Viceroy was no Joachim. The B- and C-plots differed wildly. But the core story of the two films was, in my view, essentially the same. That's how I--and, I think, most people--would define "uncanny resemblance."

Any time one seeks out a parallel, one will be looking at only certain facts--specifically, the ones that support the parallel one is trying to establish. If enough of the facts fit into the parallel--and this is an arbitrary threshold--it's a pretty good parallel. Out of the 20 sentences in the presently-available Destiny blurbs, I can take 7 of them and use them without any alteration in an Armada II blurb--and quite a good blurb one, at that. If I ignore the complication of Ezri Dax and the Aventine, I can use 10.

50% ain't cherrypicking. Heck, 35% ain't cherrypicking. Nemesis wasn't even close to that number, but I'd still say it closely paralleled TWOK.

I won't have "proven" anything until the books come out and we can all see for ourselves--and, of course, you have insider info on what's in this book. But any fair-minded individual who plays AII on a regular basis and sits down to read these Destiny blurbs without access to inside knowledge is going to say, "Hey, I already played this game!"

In short, harumph.

Dayton: bring it.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Christopher, would you argue that Nemesis and TWOK did not share an uncanny resemblence?

That's not a valid comparison, because NEM was deliberately modelled on TWOK. Also because the similarities are systemic and integral to the structure of the story, not just randomly cherrypicked out of a larger mass.

Keep in mind that I'm one of the few people who have actually read Destiny. And I can guarantee you that its similarities to that computer game are minimal and, to coin a phrase, irrelevant.

Any time one seeks out a parallel, one will be looking at only certain facts--specifically, the ones that support the parallel one is trying to establish.

Only if one is either unaware of the difference between valid and invalid reasoning or deliberately attempting to mislead others. No conclusion is valid unless it takes all the evidence into account. There is a critical difference between a pattern that genuinely arises from the evidence and a pattern that you selectively interpret the evidence to create. The former is honest investigation, while the latter is merely an exercise in self-justification. You're supposed to shape your conclusions based on the evidence, not to shape the evidence to fit your desired conclusions.

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

There was no parallel to the Big Frakking Thalaron Gun in TWOK, and the Viceroy was no Joachim.

Actually, the Genesis Device-- both being countdown devices Our Heroes have to escape at the last minute, and do so with the Important Sacrifice-- would seem pretty close to me.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I'm just going to say that I have never seen the Star Trek Armada game, never played it, and know nothing about it. Any similarities between it and Destiny are unintentional and coincidental — and I would bet that once people read the actual 300,000-word trilogy and not just a troika of 125-word cover blurbs, they'll reach the same conclusion.