What is the "Time Barrier"

[RobertScorpio]

In the MENAGERIE it seems to be a big deal that they have 'broken the Time Barrier'. When I saw that episode the first time, way way back when it first aired, I always took it to mean that they finally were able to travel at Warp Speed...

If not, then why did they seem so excited by being able to break the time barrier??? I also got the impression that Vena would have been much older than she really appeared (which was the case I guess). Number-one seems to figure this out long before anyone else when she tries to compare ages...

The show Enterprise thrashes this idea because they had warp drive already...then we figure in Zeppy Cochran and it gets even more interesting...so what the heck is going on?

Rob
Scorpio

 

[A beaker full of death]

In the MENAGERIE it seems to be a big deal that they have 'broken the Time Barrier'. When I saw that episode the first time, way way back when it first aired, I always took it to mean that they finally were able to travel at Warp Speed...

That's exactly what they meant. As all science buffs and sci fi geeks know, as one approaches the speed of light, time slows.

The show Enterprise thrashes this idea

Oh do come along. Enterprise? Why not ask a retarded orangutan what it thinks of quantum physics?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the MENAGERIE it seems to be a big deal that they have 'broken the Time Barrier'. When I saw that episode the first time, way way back when it first aired, I always took it to mean that they finally were able to travel at Warp Speed...

If not, then why did they seem so excited by being able to break the time barrier??? I also got the impression that Vena would have been much older than she really appeared (which was the case I guess). Number-one seems to figure this out long before anyone else when she tries to compare ages...

The show Enterprise thrashes this idea because they had warp drive already...then we figure in Zeppy Cochran and it gets even more interesting...so what the heck is going on?

When "The Cage" was made, they basically had no backstory. Everything was made up as it went along. So they had carte blanche to use funky sci-fi sounding phrases like "Time Barrier" without ever explaining what the hell they were talking about.

Retroactively, it was probably something like Warp 7. Warp drive itself obviously existed for decades before that episode took place, so that's not it. And it's not time dilation either, for the same reason (time dilation does not apply at warp).

 

[Carpe Occasio]

"The Cage" calls it "time warp" drive, and notes that the "time barrier" had been broken, allowing a group of stranded interstellar travellers to get back to Earth much more quickly than they had been previously able to.

The episode "Metamorphosis establishes a backstory for the invention of warp drive, stating that it was invented by Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri. Cochrane is repeatedly referred to afterwards, but the exact details of the first warp trials were not shown until Star Trek: First Contact.

The movie depicts Cochrane as inventing warp drive on Earth in 2063. He used a fission reactor to heat plasma to send through the warp coils to make a warp bubble, which he could use to move the ship into subspace to go faster than the speed of light.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm sure the intent at the time was that warp drive had been invented recently. Of course, it was the pilot and things had changed since then in subsequent episodes (or maybe not, it depends a lot on your interpretation of things like warp drive and impulse).

A simple explanation would be that there was a significant recent advance in warp drive that made it much faster, rather than the invention of warp drive itself.

In the MENAGERIE it seems to be a big deal that they have 'broken the Time Barrier'. When I saw that episode the first time, way way back when it first aired, I always took it to mean that they finally were able to travel at Warp Speed...

That's exactly what they meant. As all science buffs and sci fi geeks know, as one approaches the speed of light, time slows.

The show Enterprise thrashes this idea

Oh do come along. Enterprise? Why not ask a retarded orangutan what it thinks of quantum physics?

Do you have to do this every time Enterprise gets mentioned? In this context, Enterprise is irrelevant anyway (First Contact contradicts it at the latest, although the original series seemed to do so first).

 

[CaptainStoner]

I always thought the "Time Barrier" was an undergarmet that Starfleet personnel were required to wear.

 

[A beaker full of death]

The show Enterprise thrashes this idea

Oh do come along. Enterprise? Why not ask a retarded orangutan what it thinks of quantum physics?

Do you have to do this every time Enterprise gets mentioned? In this context, Enterprise is irrelevant anyway

That was my point. Enterprise cannot speak to TOS.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That was my point. Enterprise cannot speak to TOS.

What the hell does that even mean, anyway?

Enterprise is certainly relevant, in the grand scheme of things. Whatever might have been said in TOS must be interpreted in the context of *all* Trek history - even ENT. If a film or series made after TOS, said that warp drive was invented in 2063, then it bloody well was, "time barrier" notwithstanding. Thus that term must mean something else other than warp drive.

True, *at that time* it could conceivably have meant warp drive, but that is no longer the case. That cannot be ignored.

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

Whatever might have been said in TOS must be interpreted in the context of *all* Trek history - even ENT. If a film or series made after TOS, said that warp drive was invented in 2063, then it bloody well was.

TOS: The table has 4 legs and is in front of the couch and is made of wood from the planet Altair XXI.
TNG+: The table in front of the couch is really from the planet Deneb II and has an offset invisible 5th leg that has been time shifted to 3 minutes in the past due to a photon-induced light-refraction from the polarized deflector shield operated by the tiny pink elephant standing on it in its pajamas - you know, the ones with the little footies and back-flap that have been regulation attire since World War IV.

What the hell does that even mean, anyway?

You tell me.

I hate canon wars.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just a throw away piece a dialog from the first pilot. People have got to stop treating every line of dialog like it was written in stone.

 

[A beaker full of death]

That was my point. Enterprise cannot speak to TOS.

What the hell does that even mean, anyway?

If you tell me what your native language is I shall endeavor to translate. In the alternative you may wish to consult a native English speaker.

Whatever might have been said in TOS must be interpreted in the context of *all* Trek history

Nonsense. Star Trek was complete when the series went off the air. Arguably, each episode is a complete work, but I need not go that far. Anything made after 1969 by people who inherited the legal rights to the series, but in fact were not the artists involved in its creation, is no more authoritative than Michael Jackson's interpretation of the lyrics of a Beatles song would be.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Do you have to do this every time Enterprise gets mentioned? In this context, Enterprise is irrelevant anyway

That was my point. Enterprise cannot speak to TOS.

You missed my point (or took it out of context). My point was that the idea that warp drive pre-dates TOS has nothing to do with Enterprise, it has to do with First Contact, TNG, or possibly the original series.

I interpreted the original post to also be asking what it could mean after later trek has made the original interpretation obsolete. Otherwise, it would be in the original series forum, not here.

 

[Anwar]

Dudes, keep in mind that Beaker hates any Trek after TOS, that's what he's on about.

 

[number6]

Anything made after 1969 by people who inherited the legal rights to the series, but in fact were not the artists involved in its creation, is no more authoritative than Michael Jackson's interpretation of the lyrics of a Beatles song would be.

TNG was created and developed by GR, Bob Justman, DC Fontana, David Gerrold and even Eddie Milkis. Those people were certainly involved in the creation and development of TOS, and a lot of production people worked on the original show and the sequels. The special effects supervisor for VOY worked on the Cage, in fact.

 

[T'Cal]

My brain hurts...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Warp drive was discovered by Zephram Cochrane over 150 years prior to TOS.

Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri ...

the discoverer of the space warp?

That's right, Captain.

But that's impossible. Zefram Cochrane died 150 years ago.

Vina's ship crashed 18 years before "The Cage". Add on the 13 years beween "The Cage" and TOS you have 31 years. Not even close to the preWarp time frame of 150 years ago.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

There we go. Someone actually thought of a TOS quote that contradicts The Cage. I knew there was something, I was just too lazy to find it.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Anything made after 1969 by people who inherited the legal rights to the series, but in fact were not the artists involved in its creation, is no more authoritative than Michael Jackson's interpretation of the lyrics of a Beatles song would be.

TNG was created and developed by GR, Bob Justman, DC Fontana, David Gerrold and even Eddie Milkis. Those people were certainly involved in the creation and development of TOS, and a lot of production people worked on the original show and the sequels. The special effects supervisor for VOY worked on the Cage, in fact.

Valid points, but those do not support the contention that Enterprise can be authoritative as to TOS. As for whether TNG can, we'd have a long night ahead of us, but that is not the present argument.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Dudes, keep in mind that Beaker hates any Trek after TOS, that's what he's on about.

I generally say what I mean, Anwar. Do you have anything to say?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Can we please stay on topic and not start discussing other posters?