constitution class?

[robjkay]

That would conflict with the onscreen indication in TWOK that the refit is an ENTERPRISE-CLASS ship

The Enterprise-A is Constitution class, we've all seen it (Scotty's deck plans in ST VI). And since the original refit was identical in appearance, then all indications are that *it* was also of that class.

I still think the Enterprise class could refer to the simulator (which was obviously built to resemble the Enterprise), or to the "Enterprise class" of cadets who would soon be posted to that ship (doesn't it make sense for a group of cadets to be trained together, in anticipation of being posted to a given ship?).

As for the term "starship class": Poor choice of words on their part. Taken literally, that term doesn't make a whole lot of sense (otherwise you'd have to have a ship called the USS Starship ). It's a starship *type*, though.

I have to agree that the Enterprise A is a Constitution Class being be have seen Scotty looking at a schematic that specifically says " Constitution Class Starshiip" which was in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Also lets not forget that this Enterprise-A is the second Enterprise-A which is supposedly the Yorktown which was renamed.

I also agree that the Enterprise Class is simply in reference or is the name of the simulator or towards the class of cadets.

 

[3D Master]

In the beginning, "starship" was a very, very special term. Only 12 like her in the fleet!

Not quite: according to Kirk, for example the old tub Archon had also been a starship.

The "only twelve" statement is never associated with the designation "starship", but only with the specific type of vessel that Kirk flies. It may well be that there were only 12-13 starships of that design in existence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but other designs of starship no doubt existed in considerable quantity - including the previous generation of starship designs, and the first examples of the next generation of starships.

Yeah, it seems that at some point after TOS, "starship" ceased to mean "big and bad interstellar vessel" and simply came to mean "interstellar vessel" - perhaps because all ships from that point on were at least as big and bad as the old starships had been.

Still, it would be nonsensical for Starfleet to designate one of its 2260s ship classes Starship class when the word "starship" at that point already was a generic one for a certain category of vessels. It might be just slightly less nonsensical to say that Starfleet would write down the category of certain vessels on a brass plaque on the bridge, so that for example Constitution, Surya and Fanboy class vessels would get their status as starship confirmed in writing. But the Constitution, Surya and Fanboy designations would still have to exist in parallel with the "starship class" nomer, so that Starfleet could tell its various starship types apart.

The captain that capitulated to the Roman Empire Earth in Bread and Circusses, says he only captains a space ship, while Kirk captains a Starship. Similar with the Enterprise NCC-1701 being the FIRST Starship to bear the name, it seems that before a ship was considered a Starship, it required a certain something - most like size, range, speed, and power.

It seems, that before the late 23rd century, there were but VERY FEW ships actually allowed the designation of a starship. The Starship-class, being one of, and more likely, THE first class to considered a starship.

However, as more and more ship-classes emerged, all being starships, "starship-class" became annoying. Do you mean THE Starship-class, a ship of enough class to be a starship, or just plain any old ship that flies the stars?

And so, "Starship-class" got renamed "Constitution-class" for convenience sake, and since everyone uses it later on, it was most definitely convenient.

That, to me, seems the most likely course of events.

What's "real" in Star Trek was/is constantly evolving. Even early on nothing was nailed down 100%. They changed terminology as they went. When they found something they liked they kept it. So James R. kirk becomes James T Kirk, Vulcanis becomes Vulcan,

So, Earth became Terra?

I don't get why the simpler explanation - it's got more than one name - isn't used for Vulcanis and Vulcan.

UESPA becomes Star Fleet

No, it didn't.

 

[robjkay]

UESPA becomes Star Fleet

No, it didn't.

UESPA has been supplanted by Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service, but both work together helping with the construction of the spacecraft and accomplishing missions.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the beginning, "starship" was a very, very special term. Only 12 like her in the fleet!

Not quite: according to Kirk, for example the old tub Archon had also been a starship.

The "only twelve" statement is never associated with the designation "starship", but only with the specific type of vessel that Kirk flies. It may well be that there were only 12-13 starships of that design in existence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but other designs of starship no doubt existed in considerable quantity - including the previous generation of starship designs, and the first examples of the next generation of starships.

Yeah, it seems that at some point after TOS, "starship" ceased to mean "big and bad interstellar vessel" and simply came to mean "interstellar vessel" - perhaps because all ships from that point on were at least as big and bad as the old starships had been.

Still, it would be nonsensical for Starfleet to designate one of its 2260s ship classes Starship class when the word "starship" at that point already was a generic one for a certain category of vessels. It might be just slightly less nonsensical to say that Starfleet would write down the category of certain vessels on a brass plaque on the bridge, so that for example Constitution, Surya and Fanboy class vessels would get their status as starship confirmed in writing. But the Constitution, Surya and Fanboy designations would still have to exist in parallel with the "starship class" nomer, so that Starfleet could tell its various starship types apart.

The captain that capitulated to the Roman Empire Earth in Bread and Circusses, says he only captains a space ship, while Kirk captains a Starship. Similar with the Enterprise NCC-1701 being the FIRST Starship to bear the name, it seems that before a ship was considered a Starship, it required a certain something - most like size, range, speed, and power.

It seems, that before the late 23rd century, there were but VERY FEW ships actually allowed the designation of a starship. The Starship-class, being one of, and more likely, THE first class to considered a starship.

However, as more and more ship-classes emerged, all being starships, "starship-class" became annoying. Do you mean THE Starship-class, a ship of enough class to be a starship, or just plain any old ship that flies the stars?

And so, "Starship-class" got renamed "Constitution-class" for convenience sake, and since everyone uses it later on, it was most definitely convenient.

That, to me, seems the most likely course of events.

What's "real" in Star Trek was/is constantly evolving. Even early on nothing was nailed down 100%. They changed terminology as they went. When they found something they liked they kept it. So James R. kirk becomes James T Kirk, Vulcanis becomes Vulcan,

So, Earth became Terra?

I don't get why the simpler explanation - it's got more than one name - isn't used for Vulcanis and Vulcan.

UESPA becomes Star Fleet

No, it didn't.

I'm talking REAL WORLD here. Not "in universe".

 

[robjkay]

In the beginning, "starship" was a very, very special term. Only 12 like her in the fleet!

Not quite: according to Kirk, for example the old tub Archon had also been a starship.

The "only twelve" statement is never associated with the designation "starship", but only with the specific type of vessel that Kirk flies. It may well be that there were only 12-13 starships of that design in existence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but other designs of starship no doubt existed in considerable quantity - including the previous generation of starship designs, and the first examples of the next generation of starships.

Yeah, it seems that at some point after TOS, "starship" ceased to mean "big and bad interstellar vessel" and simply came to mean "interstellar vessel" - perhaps because all ships from that point on were at least as big and bad as the old starships had been.

Still, it would be nonsensical for Starfleet to designate one of its 2260s ship classes Starship class when the word "starship" at that point already was a generic one for a certain category of vessels. It might be just slightly less nonsensical to say that Starfleet would write down the category of certain vessels on a brass plaque on the bridge, so that for example Constitution, Surya and Fanboy class vessels would get their status as starship confirmed in writing. But the Constitution, Surya and Fanboy designations would still have to exist in parallel with the "starship class" nomer, so that Starfleet could tell its various starship types apart.

Timo Saloniemi

A Starship is any manned spacecraft that is capable of viable interstellar travel, it is were identified exclusively as vessels operated by Starfleet. Or as Merik stated from (TOS: "Bread and Circuses") which was... "Kirk commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew."

 

[robjkay]

The picture is from (TOS: "The Naked Now"). While Data brought up that picture on the computer console, Picard stated; "The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding..."

This was the first episode in any series that actually used "Constitution Class" in a dialog, thus making it canon for the very first time in ST.

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

In TOS: Space Seed a displayed page of a tech manual refers to the U.S.S. Constitution NCC-1700.

And that means precisely zilch without some form of fan explanation.
I will now coin a phrase "Fanplanation".
No search engine has turned up this phrase so... coined it is.

Better than "Fanwank", right?

Since most hail MJ, the designer, as god on the subject and selectively reference him for intent to prove whatever point they like to make, let's do so now to make them happy - 1701 is the first ship of that design, not 1700. MJ fact.

1700 means zero towards anything.
Yes, I can already read the fanplanation now---1700 was the testbed and 1701 was the first production vessel. See? Predictable. And total fanplanation.

So what if a diagram shows 1700 and the name Constitution?
It is fanplanation that adds anything more than this fact.

To borrow a thread topic devised earlier by someone; that this Constitution Class fanplanation took hold in Trek means about as much as the MTV movie awards do for recognizing cinematic excellence. It's all about pandering to the crowd. Frankly, the crowd loves crap. The more asinine, the better.

American Idol and Dancing with the Stars are Must See TV!
Don't you know these are the new innovators of world culture!
Crap excels with the crowd.
That, and the world's fascination with airing, syndicating and then marketing the hell out of dirty laundry - preferably with blogs, livejournals, myspace and youtube links for viral recognition and cost effectiveness.

 

[Timo]

The Starship-class, being one of, and more likely, THE first class to considered a starship.

That was good enough a few years back. Nowadays, we have to consider ENT, where the word "starship" is in general use. Now, there's nothing wrong with the idea that the word gained a special meaning after the 22nd century, then reverted back to a general meaning. Or with the idea that NX-01 was the first true starship (in the special meaning of the word) in human hands, in terms of capabilities relative to other human ships - but people like Archer didn't hesitate for a second to dub every alien vessel "starship" because they were all equal or superior to NX-01. But it has become difficult to claim that NCC-1700 was the first "true starship" ever.

UESPA has been supplanted by Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service, but both work together helping with the construction of the spacecraft and accomplishing missions.

Good enough for me. An "agency" like UESPA should be either subordinate to a "command" like Starfleet Command, or then an outside partner...

The picture is from (TOS: "The Naked Now"). While Data brought up that picture on the computer console, Picard stated; "The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding..."

This was the first episode in any series that actually used "Constitution Class" in a dialog, thus making it canon for the very first time in ST.

Now this offers us an interesting little problem. The dialogue should refer to Kirk's command of the vessel during "The Naked Time", while the images refer to the ship at a much later date, after an extensive refit. Is the combination sufficient proof that the images, too, depict a Constitution class vessel - or does this scene merely confirm that the TOS incarnation of the vessel was of that class?

To borrow a thread topic devised earlier by someone; that this Constitution Class fanplanation took hold in Trek means about as much as the MTV movie awards do for recognizing cinematic excellence. It's all about pandering to the crowd. Frankly, the crowd loves crap. The more asinine, the better.

So what? Most of Star Trek is crap, and all of that crap is Star Trek. As the idea of Constitution class has indeed taken hold, it's now Star Trek, on screen in addition to between our cherished Spock ears. And regardless of its origins, it's "artistically neutral" now - no crappier than the plywood and cardboard that were used for some of the more memorable and impressive sets in the show.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

So what? Most of Star Trek is crap, and all of that crap is Star Trek. As the idea of Constitution class has indeed taken hold, it's now Star Trek, on screen in addition to between our cherished Spock ears. And regardless of its origins, it's "artistically neutral" now - no crappier than the plywood and cardboard that were used for some of the more memorable and impressive sets in the show.

I think you have somewhat taken away from this something I did not intend. But I will agree that most Trek of the past couple of decades has been crap.

My problems lay with the concept of fanon becoming more than what it was intended and when ever I see it the reminders of what was vs what now is angers me. The fact that some concepts are later incorporated, acknowledged and not, into Trekdom by mass consensus and/or production when they had no such meaning originally is the root problem I have.

Let's take FJ's Starfleet Technical Manual.
The creation of new starships as a small example - there are oodles and oodles of others from many sources.

For fanon, hey cool, whatever floats your boat. I have no problems with this type of thing - it inspires creativity and has spawned paths to advances in personal and professional levels for many of its fans.

Then along comes TMP, and due to fanon, utilizes a couple of concepts as a nod to fandom for keeping the light on. Suddenly, arguments arise over things which were never intended or even given credence beyond a wink and a nod recognition.

Fanplanations arise... more arguments ensure. Then fanon starts to become what many term "canon" even when it is not, often through simple repetition of misinformation. Often the higher ups attempting to pacify fandom worsen this situation by acknowledging this. Then, the higher ups disregard previously established rules and conventions of their own product for whatever reasons may apply - fans, personal and/or professional. More arguments on this new fanon/canon arise. This is all needless crap!

Enter much technobable explanations both on screen and off largely due to fanon/canon wars. Things spiral out of control and true geekdom is born that any sane person avoids - and they do as many will point out through ratings and personal public denial - what kind of a retard do you think I am? A Trekkie? All over crap!

Trek, which was previously on a very slippery slope now careens downhill at an amazing speed, picking up detritus along the way. Crap is now king!

What used to be widely enjoyable television is now on par with reality shows for stimulating content, except now it has utter true geekdom attached to it and is no longer widely enjoyable television.

I could liken this to the Star Wars franchise and its Expanded Universe along with its own fanon/canon wars, but the fit would not be exact. It is so bloated with its own crap (fanon, canon and fanon turned canon) that many just want to enjoy the base stuff and pretend the other stuff just doesn't exist - including the prequels. Although, it is swiftly approaching the levels of Trekdom geekery and craptacularity.
But, crap sells - and is marketed well because it is fun to argue about crap.

My hope, and I absolutely know it won't happen - due to... say it with me... fandom, is that the new Star Trek movie washes away everything fanon, crap canon and fanon turned canon has diseased within the franchise and a new start can be obtained.

Trek needs a severe enema from a watertower.

 

[Timo]

Uh, it should be noted that a very large percentage of Trek began as "fanon" in the sense that it was written by pros who did it from the fan viewpoint - by pros who were fans.

Also, most of the crap aspects of Trek have their root origins in the cheap-o TOS, rather than in the more intensively produced spinoffs and movies. After rinsing hard, one isn't left with the essence of Trek; one is merely left with the revelation that it was all dirt being held together by more dirt. Much like, say, Mona Lisa is.

There is about zero hope that a movie shot in the 2000s will reproduce anything from a TV show shot in the 1960s. It may add to the Trek mythos, or it may become an independently valuable piece of dirt/art, but it won't "re-" anything. Nothing will.

If Trek is too much of a good thing (or even a bad thing) now, it can't be helped. It can only be discarded if one feels like doing so. It's just that not many do.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

The Starship-class, being one of, and more likely, THE first class to considered a starship.

That was good enough a few years back. Nowadays, we have to consider ENT, where the word "starship" is in general use. Now, there's nothing wrong with the idea that the word gained a special meaning after the 22nd century, then reverted back to a general meaning. Or with the idea that NX-01 was the first true starship (in the special meaning of the word) in human hands, in terms of capabilities relative to other human ships - but people like Archer didn't hesitate for a second to dub every alien vessel "starship" because they were all equal or superior to NX-01. But it has become difficult to claim that NCC-1700 was the first "true starship" ever.

Nope, we don't have to consider it at all. We throw Enterprise on trash heap where it belongs.

UESPA has been supplanted by Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service, but both work together helping with the construction of the spacecraft and accomplishing missions.

Good enough for me. An "agency" like UESPA should be either subordinate to a "command" like Starfleet Command, or then an outside partner...

Odd then, that UESPA and Earth Command gave Kirk orders in the first season of TOS, and Starfleet didn't get mentioned until the second season. There doesn't seem to be going much supplanting going on; in fact an Earth organization remained intact well after the Federation was established. It only got merged into the Federation-wide Starfleet until much later.

 

[robjkay]

Now this offers us an interesting little problem. The dialogue should refer to Kirk's command of the vessel during "The Naked Time", while the images refer to the ship at a much later date, after an extensive refit. Is the combination sufficient proof that the images, too, depict a Constitution class vessel - or does this scene merely confirm that the TOS incarnation of the vessel was of that class?

This is true that the dialogue is in reference to Kirk's command during (TOS "The Naked Time") but the image of the Constitution was of the refitted design from TMP. More then likely the picture was a screw up from the production crew (which would not be the first time something like this has happened). Also one can say that the picture that was shown of Kirks ship was simply showing the last version (one of many refits) of the connie. Ether way I think it would be safe to say that the ship before its extensive refit due to the dialogue in reference to Kirks ship and the ship after its extensive refit due to the picture of a refitted TMP ship are both of the same class. Which is the Constitution Class starship!

 

[robjkay]

UESPA has been supplanted by Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service, but both work together helping with the construction of the spacecraft and accomplishing missions.

Good enough for me. An "agency" like UESPA should be either subordinate to a "command" like Starfleet Command, or then an outside partner...

Odd then, that UESPA and Earth Command gave Kirk orders in the first season of TOS, and Starfleet didn't get mentioned until the second season. There doesn't seem to be going much supplanting going on; in fact an Earth organization remained intact well after the Federation was established. It only got merged into the Federation-wide Starfleet until much later.

The UESPA might not have been mentioned before the second season of TOS. But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later! Therefore this Earth organization did not remain intact and was supplanted sometime before the launching of the NX-01.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Odd then, that UESPA and Earth Command gave Kirk orders in the first season of TOS, and Starfleet didn't get mentioned until the second season. There doesn't seem to be going much supplanting going on; in fact an Earth organization remained intact well after the Federation was established. It only got merged into the Federation-wide Starfleet until much later.

Starfleet first appears in the first season.
FRom Court Martial TOS 1x15

I'm telling you, Captain,either you accept a permanent ground assignment, or the whole disciplinary weight of Starfleet command is gonna light right on your neck.

From Tomorrow is Yesterday TOS 1x22

Lieutenant Uhura,contact Starfleet Control.I want them alerted to the position of that black star that's in the area of Starbase 9.

As I've said. Star Trek was/is a work in progress. They tossed out stuff they didn't like or didn't work and replaced it with things that did. In the process certain things were excised form continuity.

 

[3D Master]

The UESPA might not have been mentioned before the second season of TOS. But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later! Therefore this Earth organization did not remain intact and was supplanted sometime before the launching of the NX-01.

No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

 

[robjkay]

The UESPA might not have been mentioned before the second season of TOS. But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later! Therefore this Earth organization did not remain intact and was supplanted sometime before the launching of the NX-01.

No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

Yes, STARFLEET was mentioned before the second season in (TOS "The Menagerie"). It was also mentioned many times in Enterprise which is "canon".

The UESPA merged or was supplanted into Starfleet way before TOS!

 

[trevanian]

The UESPA might not have been mentioned before the second season of TOS. But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later! Therefore this Earth organization did not remain intact and was supplanted sometime before the launching of the NX-01.

No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

Yes, STARFLEET was mentioned before the second season in (TOS "The Menagerie"). It was also mentioned many times in Enterprise which is "canon".
:

How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE, because Wise & co wouldn't let him paste the nx into the wall of ship pics in the refit rec room? Here he is, rewriting history to suit himself, and we are supposed to take that as canon because that no-talent Berman hired him and put him in a position to help mess thing sup worse in ModernTrek?

Your notion of canon is my notion of 'why not to watch.'

 

[Alidar Jarok]

A. Braga isn't responsible for that prop in the picture (it was either Manny Coto or, more likely, the art department).
B. I've never heard that story before (first part, obviously Berman hired him).

 

[trevanian]

How could Coto be responsible for something done in 1978? I'm talking about the DE, for which Braga apparently lobbied to get an ENT tie-in in the form of the nx-whatsis pasted over the ringship or whatever the TOS predecessor was on the wall. THAT is an example of canon continuity running rampant over history, and shows how preposterous the whole business is.

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

Uh, it should be noted that a very large percentage of Trek began as "fanon" in the sense that it was written by pros who did it from the fan viewpoint - by pros who were fans.

We'll just leave this one alone in an effort not to offend anyone.
Books, comics and the like... hey go for it.
I still like the Gold Key comics.

Also, most of the crap aspects of Trek have their root origins in the cheap-o TOS

Crap aspects in the roots? Roots are underground and unseen.
It is the seeds planted later that produced the poisonous fruit.

Rather than in the more intensively produced spinoffs and movies.

Intensively? I can accept insensitively or even incompetently.
Your choice of wording is highly questionable.

After rinsing hard, one isn't left with the essence of Trek; one is merely left with the revelation that it was all dirt being held together by more dirt.

The essence of Trek was fun space stories told well (mostly), sometimes with a message, along with a bit of camp and hot chicks - and yeah, they were kinda dirty.

When it became so pretentious as to have a warp nacelle or two shoved completely up its anus is traceable.

There is about zero hope that a movie shot in the 2000s will reproduce anything from a TV show shot in the 1960s.

If it has a fun space story told well, maybe a message, some camp and hot chicks then it has what it needs reproduction-wise. Most likely a space battle or two as well for the cinematic experience.

It can only be discarded if one feels like doing so. It's just that not many do.

Shame that.