Well we say they had proof of their gods...but not untill the wormhole was discoverd, so up untill then it was vauge prophecy, aincent texts and blind faith just like current 90% of humanity.
Were the Bajorans seriously dumb?
- Thread starter All Seeing Eye
- Start date
No, because they also had the Orbs.
Why bother explaining religion when it relies on the lack of knowledge of an individual (among other things) to thrive in the first place?
The wormhole aliens chose Sisko (seemingly an atheist) for their Emmissary which presents the possibility that if they went that far ahead to choose a person without beliefs in gods as their spokesman/offspring, then who's to say they would respect the Bajorans less if they suddenly stopped believing that the wormhole aliens were gods, or disbanded their religion entirely?
The Bajorans created their religion around the wormhole aliens because they were influencing them in the early times.
Were the Bajorans 'seriously dumb' to continue to think that the wormhole aliens were gods even after the discovery of the wormhole?
Perhaps.
It depends on how you look at it really.
Personally I see it as something completely idiotic taking into consideration the evidence was/is right in front of them.
They intentionally deluded themselves for the sake of preserving their beliefs which may have been justified in the past when they knew far less, but seriously ... the 'god' aspect could have been canned.
They wanted to believe because that was one of the things to give them their strength to go on, and they were blind to the fact that other things (which didn't involve religion, faith or beliefs) can give a person strength/inspiration and whatnot.
From my personal perspective, any creature, regardless of it's power magnitude or where it comes from cannot be perceived as a 'god'.
It's merely a delusion to think of them as one.
Sure they have the ability to do extraordinary things that others can't, but so what?
Just because someone has a power or an ability to do something (regardless of how small or large) it doesn't make them a 'god'.
Heck if I met a creator of the universe itself (if such an entity would even exist ... atheist here) I wouldn't see them as a 'god'.
Just another example of a persona that merely has an ability to do something I don't.
But I repeat, that's just my own personal opinion on the subject at hand. :-)
The wormhole aliens chose Sisko (seemingly an atheist) for their Emmissary which presents the possibility that if they went that far ahead to choose a person without beliefs in gods as their spokesman/offspring, then who's to say they would respect the Bajorans less if they suddenly stopped believing that the wormhole aliens were gods, or disbanded their religion entirely?
The Bajorans created their religion around the wormhole aliens because they were influencing them in the early times.
Were the Bajorans 'seriously dumb' to continue to think that the wormhole aliens were gods even after the discovery of the wormhole?
Perhaps.
It depends on how you look at it really.
Personally I see it as something completely idiotic taking into consideration the evidence was/is right in front of them.
They intentionally deluded themselves for the sake of preserving their beliefs which may have been justified in the past when they knew far less, but seriously ... the 'god' aspect could have been canned.
They wanted to believe because that was one of the things to give them their strength to go on, and they were blind to the fact that other things (which didn't involve religion, faith or beliefs) can give a person strength/inspiration and whatnot.
From my personal perspective, any creature, regardless of it's power magnitude or where it comes from cannot be perceived as a 'god'.
It's merely a delusion to think of them as one.
Sure they have the ability to do extraordinary things that others can't, but so what?
Just because someone has a power or an ability to do something (regardless of how small or large) it doesn't make them a 'god'.
Heck if I met a creator of the universe itself (if such an entity would even exist ... atheist here) I wouldn't see them as a 'god'.
Just another example of a persona that merely has an ability to do something I don't.
But I repeat, that's just my own personal opinion on the subject at hand. :-)
They also have direct evidence that clearly points in the direction the creatures they are worshiping are NOT gods.
Even the Q proved to be vulnerable when going up against themselves, and humans in Trek never treated them as gods or any other more powerful entities they encountered.
Point is that even after the discovery of the wormhole and the fact the wormhole aliens were the ones perceived as 'Prophets' and also proved that they could be killed, the Bajorans continued with their previous belief system, which was almost never questioned by any Bajoran ... except of course perhaps Kira.
She retained her beliefs if I'm not mistaken, but they were subdued and not misguided.
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Well, again, that depends upon the definition of a "god," which can vary from culture to culture. And, as I noted before, it may be a mistake on our part to apply our concept of a "god" to the Prophets; it may well be that the Bajorans worship the Prophets without believing them to be "gods" in the sense that we in the West tend to mean it.
To the Bajorans they are.
Bajorans aren't humans. To them the Prophets are Gods. The ones who sent the orbs. Treating Bajorans as Earth humans and the Prophets as Earth Gods doesn't work.
Again this is comparing the Prophets with Earth gods. The fact that a Prophet could be killed doesn't mean anything less to the Bajorans. In fact part of their religion is about the Pah-Wraiths destroying the Prophets and Bajor. The Bajorans knew from Day 1 that their Prophets could be killed. The wormhole didn't change that. It just reaffirmed their believe in their Gods right after the Occupation.
Also Kira always believed in the Prophets as "The Reckoning" proved.
Clearly, the Bajorans never heard of Clapton.
First off, a profit is a sum of money earned in a capitalistic endeavour that exceeds the sum of the costs incurred in undertaking that endeavour. If I spend $5 on a pair of socks and sell that pair of socks for $15, then I will have made $10 worth of profit.
A prophet, on the other hand, is an individual gifted with the capacity to seek into and accurately predict the future. The Bajorans refer to the inhabitants of the Wormhole, whom they identify with the beings they have traditionally worshipped in their religion, as the Prophets. (And the name, by the way, implies that they may not share our concept of divinity and divine worship, since they're called the Prophets and not the Gods.)
If you're going to criticize the Bajorans for being stupid, you should at least learn to spell things correctly, don't you think?
Secondly:
I'm not sure why you say that the Prophets were definitely not "interventionist (theistic) gods." The Prophets have a long history of intervening in Bajoran affairs -- witness their sending of the Orbs to communicate with the Bajorans. That was, in point of fact, the entire crux of Sisko's argument to them in "Favor the Bold:" That the Prophets did have a history of intervention in Bajoran affairs and that they were being inconsistent with their previous behavior by not intervening to stop the Dominion fleet.
And the phrase "theistic gods" is redundant and makes no sense. "Theism" is simply the belief in the existence of a god or gods; you might as well refer to godly gods, or say that Lee Harvey Oswald was a deadly assassin, or that Princess Diana suffered fatal death. A god is by definition theistic, and an assassin is by definition deadly, and death is by defintion fatal.
And, again, there's no evidence that the Prophets are not gods. Nor that they are. Why? Because the definition of a god is completely subjective and varies from culture to culture. Trying to prove that the Prophets are objectively gods is like trying to prove that someone is objectively tall, or that a woman is objectively beautiful. It can't be done -- and, indeed, it's not clear that the Bajorans ever claimed that the Prophets were gods in our culture's sense of the term. But all of the attributes of the Wormhole Aliens are identical and consistent with those of the beings worshipped in the Bajoran religion, and it's an established fact that the Orbs that that religion has traditionally attributed to the Prophets were sent by the Wormhole Aliens. To the Bajorans, the Wormhole Aliens are the Prophets, are the beings they've worshipped.
I would also point out that it was very strongly implied that our characters were being directly helped by Prophet intervention (see the episode in which the Pa Wraith was cast out of the celestial temple when Sisko found the Orb of the Emissary). And that's not even counting when the prophets prevented thousands of Dominion ships from entering the Alpha Quadrant.
The Bajoran deities really have as good a track record at Godliness as Jahveh or Allah does: they have performed very physical miracles that have decided the fate of battles and political entities, they have provided meaningful guidance and sanctuary to individuals and peoples at times of difficulty, shaped the future, accurately foretold it, sired semi-mortals to do their bidding, and resurrected a select few dead, showing at least the potential for providing eternal postmortal life for all. All in all, that's more than is attributed to most Gods in the human pantheon.
As for their failings and weaknesses, they don't seem significantly more handicapped than our usual Gods. Even though they can apparently be "locked off" from mortal affairs by mortal deeds, seemingly against their will, our usual Gods have been said to have turned their backs on us mortals due to our deeds as well. They also come with the same sort of built-in limitations and excuses that our Gods are attributed with: they sometimes fail to wring good when the mortals they try to help are beyond redemption, and they are at times blocked from doing good due to opposition from beings of similarly divine powers but evil intent.
The only significant difference between Jahveh and the Prophets that I can think of is that Jahveh is considered a creator while Prophets seem to disbelieve in creation. Then again, the vast majority of Earthly Gods come from faiths that discount the concept of creation, too.
Timo Saloniemi
As for their failings and weaknesses, they don't seem significantly more handicapped than our usual Gods. Even though they can apparently be "locked off" from mortal affairs by mortal deeds, seemingly against their will, our usual Gods have been said to have turned their backs on us mortals due to our deeds as well. They also come with the same sort of built-in limitations and excuses that our Gods are attributed with: they sometimes fail to wring good when the mortals they try to help are beyond redemption, and they are at times blocked from doing good due to opposition from beings of similarly divine powers but evil intent.
The only significant difference between Jahveh and the Prophets that I can think of is that Jahveh is considered a creator while Prophets seem to disbelieve in creation. Then again, the vast majority of Earthly Gods come from faiths that discount the concept of creation, too.
Timo Saloniemi
DS9 has some great actors, I liked the overall story but I never cared for the religious element in the show.
I liked it. I just wished they dropped the Pah-Wraith storyline and just left it as Prophets, Bajor and the Federation vs The Founders, Cardassia and The Dominion.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Oh please...this is along the same lines of Humans, from Earth, being the most barbaric force of all galactic time
Rob
Oh god
, your one of those.Listen, I generally steer clear of internet boards because of nitpicking dicks who make comments like that, I visit this one to casually discuss a tv show, not to get into little bitchfights over typos and misspellings, and saying I called them dumb when I just changed my opinion to them not being dumb, based on your argument that they had evidence.
I was having a discussion and actually agreeing with you, there was no need to get catty.
I'll just ignore any poster who keeps acting like that, I don't have the energy or inclination to be bitchy with random people on the internet.
1. They sent orbs, and one emissary, contrast that with current earth faiths where God sends dozens of prophets, sends a human incarnation of himself, supposedly moves the eyes of statues in small French towns, cures people etc...yes they'd intervened, but to describe them as interventionist in the same way as our current gods are supposed to be is not comparing like with like.
2. A theistic god is one that created the universe and intervenes in it, a deistic one is one that created it then pretty much left it to it's own devices.
.....and I wasn't saying they were or were not gods, my point was just that subjectivity, I just found it an interesting angle that their gods were not a result of primitive explanations for scientific events they could not explain, as ours developed, but actual alien life forms who really existed.
Ahh but that was their devils, not the faith itself, I suppose you could argue their followers were dangerious but from what we saw they were a tiny minority, we heard nothing about the likes of suicide bombers or crusading armies.
Nobody said we were.
I think this was a large part of why I disliked the Bajorans. By defining them as very religious persons - and, in many ways, primarily as such - even in the face of evidence of the non-supernatural reality behind their beliefs, the writers painted the Bajorans as a society of fundamentally unreasonable, irrational persons. Faith in the possible - in success, in persons, in the end of the occupation, in the restoration of Bajor - this is entirely reasonable. But faith in the impossible, in the face of evidence that proves you wrong? It's just stupid.
That's ridiculous. Why does it count against them that their gods are "non-supernatural?" Scientists, after all, will name and categorize anything they can get their hands on. Just because the Federation had a technical name for the Celestial Temple doesn't somehow rob it of its legitimacy. You can bet that if Mr. Spock were observing Moses speaking to the burning bush, he would've described it as a combustion-related anomaly. Would that make it less of a miracle, because it was described in technical terms?
