No, they knew exactly how it happened, they explained it in the TNG episode.
Tuvix: Was it the right decision?
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No, they knew exactly how it happened, they explained it in the TNG episode.
There wasn't any way to bring them back--the end was ridiculous. Some stories just shouldn't be told--boot the two characters and give us a new one, or don't do the story at all. Tuvix begging for his life on the bridge, and no one caring--that's not something that belongs on Trek.
As far as the cultures go, it might be irrelevant. Tuvix was neither. The will to live isn't inherently selfish, that's true, but it can be when you place it at the expense of others. I think Tuvix was an interesting character, but I also think he was keenly aware that his existence was threatened by the ability to restore Neelix and Tuvok. At the end, he was more interested in preserving that existence than considering the value that their lives and relationships had. I agree with you that the ep has some wonky elements, but basically the only way I can justify Tuvix's existence is in asking the crew to completely forget about Tuvok and Neelix. And that's honestly silly.
To use a better analogy than the bus, imagine that you're in a hospital. A friend is seriously ill and needs a blood transfusion. And even though you care for them very very much, you're naturally a little afraid - your blood can save their life, but it also means you might become infected by the disease that's threatening them. Even if you save them, you might die and they'd be forced to live with the pain you'd face if they died. You naturally don't want to feel selfish and afraid of risking yourself, and you naturally don't want to die and inflict pain on your friend. There's no easy solution, and that's how I view the situation with Tuvix.
It was the wrong decision. Tuvok and Neelix were dead. Tuvix was alive. It is immoral to kill someone who is innocent of wrongdoing, for any reason. Saying it's ok to kill one person for the sake of two opens up an obvious can of worms. What if killing one innocent bystander, for some reason, would save a dozen lives? Is it ok to go around slaughtering innocent people just because you think you can make a better deal with the cosmos?
Really? Seemed to me like an eminently human response imho.
It was wrong, and Tuvix should have become a regular, with visions of Tuvok and Neelix, which only we and Tuvix could see. And if he died a few episodes later and biodgraded or something back into Tuvok and Neelix again, okay, as long as Tim Russ played Neelix and Ethan Phillips played Tuvok from that point on.
It was wrong, and Tuvix should have become a regular, with visions of Tuvok and Neelix, which only we and Tuvix could see. And if he died a few episodes later and biodgraded or something back into Tuvok and Neelix again, okay, as long as Tim Russ played Neelix and Ethan Phillips played Tuvok from that point on.
Great idea!
Tuvix wasn't selfish at all--selfish would have been following Doc's every move and trying to sabotage him.
What about the bridge scene--even those of you who think the decision was right, don't you think having Tuvix appeal to people to be saved and having no one speak for him was just wrong?
Wrong decision made.
Forced a sentient being to undergo a procedure he refused to undergo and even the EMH recognised the moral problems associated with it.
Forced a sentient being to undergo a procedure he refused to undergo and even the EMH recognised the moral problems associated with it.
I don't think that there are 'good' or 'bad' things from a universal point of view ...
What Janeway did however went directly against what SF taught her about respect of other lifeforms and their rights.
If she established for herself that she didn't see eye to eye with SF values, then it would have been justifiable and consistent with her character.
No one jumping to Tuvix's aid when he was begging on the bridge was a bit disturbing though.
Would Picard do the same thing?
I don't know.
Janeway is not Picard, but at the very least he was consistent when it came to recognizing personal freedoms of individuals regardless of their diversity.
It would have been better if they kept Tuvix for several episodes only for him to be injured later on as someone suggested and then explained away that while they are unable to save Tuvix, they might be able to save Tuvok and Neelix by performing the transporter procedure.
I also wondered why haven't they used a different method like cloning Tuvix via the transporter and just separate the clone into Tuvok and Neelix.
But that would also make them murderers because they'd intentionally kill off one Tuvix to get the other 2 ... and on the other hand, they don't actually resort to cloning.
What Janeway did however went directly against what SF taught her about respect of other lifeforms and their rights.
If she established for herself that she didn't see eye to eye with SF values, then it would have been justifiable and consistent with her character.
No one jumping to Tuvix's aid when he was begging on the bridge was a bit disturbing though.
Would Picard do the same thing?
I don't know.
Janeway is not Picard, but at the very least he was consistent when it came to recognizing personal freedoms of individuals regardless of their diversity.
It would have been better if they kept Tuvix for several episodes only for him to be injured later on as someone suggested and then explained away that while they are unable to save Tuvix, they might be able to save Tuvok and Neelix by performing the transporter procedure.
I also wondered why haven't they used a different method like cloning Tuvix via the transporter and just separate the clone into Tuvok and Neelix.
But that would also make them murderers because they'd intentionally kill off one Tuvix to get the other 2 ... and on the other hand, they don't actually resort to cloning.
I was always a bit bothered by the Doctor's refusal to perform the procedure at the last minute. I understand the "Do No Harm.." thing, but if that's the case, why spend weeks working to develop this procedure in the first place if you ultimately aren't going to perform it because you believe it to be wrong? Seems to me you'd save everyone a lot of heartache if you just exercised your moral obligations and refused to work on it right at the beginning, since you knew how it would be used.
Pretty unfair, especially to Janeway, who had to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on a weapon that the manufacturer himself thought should never have been built.
I mean, up until he developed the procedure, it was just an academic question. When he finally was successful, when it finally became something that could be done (by anyone mind you, not just by him), where the decision was no longer an academic one, he said nope, the rubber has hit the road and you know what? I'm not going to do it; here you do it.
A bit cowardly if you ask me.
Tuvok and Neelix were NOT dead. They were alive but melded together into one new personality that eventually started to evolve. Tuvix said several times in the episode that they were alive in him and there was an episode later on where Tuvok mentioned retaining memories of his time as Tuvix - his time as Tuvix.
Think about it. If you were suddenly forced to share a new body with another consciousness then eventually the two of you would start to adapt to your new situation. Should your friends and family just leave you like that? You're not dead - just trapped. Personally if it were me I'd want to be put back into my own body. If not then just kill me - that would be better than being trapped in another body under someone else's control, imo.
But at the beginning, the procedure was not questioned.
EVERYONE (including Tuvix) was looking on a way to bring the other 2 back.
The Doctor probably didn't take into consideration the actual impact this procedure would make on him until he found it (and by then Tuvix effectively became another member of the crew).
EVERYONE (including Tuvix) was looking on a way to bring the other 2 back.
The Doctor probably didn't take into consideration the actual impact this procedure would make on him until he found it (and by then Tuvix effectively became another member of the crew).
Me too. But for different reasons: "Tuvix" sounds rather obscene in German.an on another note, I like the name Neevok better
So that let's you determine wether you would kill a friend to get two others back – that you are more friends with them?
If I HAD to kill someone that I barely knew to save two good friends??? I would
and what does that word mean???
Man, I wouldn't kill anybody. "Thou shalt not kill," is one of the biggest commandments of God and man. Murder, for any reason, is wrong.
Yeah, I think Janeway did murder Tuvix. That wasn't like ordering someone to die for the sake of the ship, that was plain murder. I understand her reasons, but there was nothing morally right about it.
WRT the justification of Tuvix being an accident, well, a lot of pregnancies are accidents. I know abortion is legal, but I don't think that's morally right either, though, again, I understand the arguments for it. I don't like it, but I believe in the law.
In any case, Tuvix was far more than an embryo, he was a living, thinking being. You can't equate that with an abortion, the solution to an accident, at all, imo.
It's especially disturbing since Janeway, in a prior episode, refused to kill a Vidian to get Neelix's lungs back. What's the difference between the two scenarios? Why the big change of heart? I think this might be what Ron Moore was referring to wrt Janeway's characterization being inconsistent.
In any case, her behaviour in Tuvix, Equinox (read to kill a crewman, relieving Chakotay of duty to carry out her vendetta on Ransom), and, espeically, Endgame, really reflected badly on Janeway as a captain.
I will admit that when Tuvix was eliminated I cried. It was enjoying to see the what would happen if Neelix and Tuvok were combined the way they were. If there was some way to keep Tuvix and Tuvok then that would have been my option but Janeway did what was right.
They were effectively dead. The prior analogy KayArr made wrt Tuvok and Neelix being parents, passing on their DNA, imo, is a logical one.
Janeway murdered a man in cold blood, something Kirk, Picard, and Sisko never did.
Why wasn't she court-martialed for it? Maybe she was.
Y'know, never-minding the morality of Janeway's decision, I really liked Tuvix. I really do think they should've kept him around as a regular. I always hated Neelix, so he'd be gone if Tuvix stuck around. Tuvok, while a good character, never had the charm of Spock imo. Plus, we'd seen Vulcans before. Tuvix was an acceptable replacement to Tuvok, imo, and actually could've turned out to be a better character.
It would've been a really brave and crazy thing to do if they'd stuck with Tuvix. But, seeing as it's Berman and Braga's Voyager, the riskier paths were never taken.
It would've been a really brave and crazy thing to do if they'd stuck with Tuvix. But, seeing as it's Berman and Braga's Voyager, the riskier paths were never taken.
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