I don't get it.

[teya]

So yes, I do agree a good actor can make a bad script bearible.

For me, Lien certainly saved "Tattoo" from being my absolute worst Voyager episode ever--devious Kes rocked.

Another episode she saved from the dregs for me was "Darkling." I found Picardo's performance an exercise in scenery chewing, but Lien gave Kes's romance a sweet and sexy at the same time touch that was appreciated. Since they ended up writing her out, I kinda wish they'd done it by sending her off with Zahir.

 

[Mrs Paris]

So yes, I do agree a good actor can make a bad script bearible.

For me, Lien certainly saved "Tattoo" from being my absolute worst Voyager episode ever--devious Kes rocked.

Another episode she saved from the dregs for me was "Darkling." I found Picardo's performance an exercise in scenery chewing, but Lien gave Kes's romance a sweet and sexy at the same time touch that was appreciated. Since they ended up writing her out, I kinda wish they'd done it by sending her off with Zahir.

I'll agree with that, Tattoo was terrible as are just about all Chakotay episodes.

and yeah, it would have been interesting to see Kes go off with Zahir

 

[Lynx]

So yes, I do agree a good actor can make a bad script bearible.

For me, Lien certainly saved "Tattoo" from being my absolute worst Voyager episode ever--devious Kes rocked.

Another episode she saved from the dregs for me was "Darkling." I found Picardo's performance an exercise in scenery chewing, but Lien gave Kes's romance a sweet and sexy at the same time touch that was appreciated. Since they ended up writing her out, I kinda wish they'd done it by sending her off with Zahir.

You do have some good points here.

"Tattoo" was terrible with its insult to the American Indians. But that sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu was funny and actually saved the episode from a total disaster. It also showed that Kes wasn't only an innocent,sweet yes-sayer. When she thought that someone might need a lesson or was wrong in some way, she could tell it to that person or, as in this case, make a prank on The Doctor.

As for "Tattoo", despite the stupid "Sky Spirits" crap, Chakotay's background story was actually interesting. What they should have done was to skip the "Sky Spirit" crap and instead come up with some other episode where they encounter some people on the planet whose ways of living reminds Chakotay of his childhood. They could have settled with something like that.

"Darkling" is in fact one of my favorites. I found it spooky and exciting and I actually liked the plot with The Doctor dabbling with his program and causing those effects. I agree on your comments about Kes here.

I'm still opposed to the fact that they did write out the character. They should have kept her and all the other main characters even if Seven was added, just as they did when Worf was added to the DS9 cast. But if it was absolutely necessary to get rid of Kes (if Lien had wanted to leave or so), then it would have been better if she had left with Zahir, maybe to return later on in the series, than the silly plot we had to stand in "The Gift".

 

[kimc]

For me, Lien certainly saved "Tattoo" from being my absolute worst Voyager episode ever--devious Kes rocked.

I nearly forgot about that. What a hoot! I guess there's a reason to sit through that episode again.

 

[Kio]

^ I thought the story was that they needed Seven's sex appeal for ratings and they needed to axe someone because they didn't have the budget for another actor. Harry Kim was set to become a red shirt, but then he got a rush of publicity and so they killed Kes instead. I would rather have kept Kes.

 

[Mrs Paris]

^ I thought the story was that they needed Seven's sex appeal for ratings and they needed to axe someone because they didn't have the budget for another actor. Harry Kim was set to become a red shirt, but then he got a rush of publicity and so they killed Kes instead. I would rather have kept Kes.

contrary to popular opnion, the idea to bring in Seven was made very early in the show, about the middle of the second season. Think about it, you have to create a character, write her back story, cast an actress, create all the borg costumes.....it takes lots of time

The decision to bring her had nothing to do with Lien who they didn't know would be gone at the time. It was just poor timing that lead her debut being close to when Lien's contract wasn't renewed

^According to several prodcers in a behind the scenes book about Voyager

 

[exodus]

On a personal note.

As an actor/actress, you'd have to know somethings going wrong when the character you play starts falling farther & farther into the background and isn't featured much.

Wouldn't you think?

 

[Mrs Paris]

On a personal note.

As an actor/actress, you'd have to know somethings going wrong when the character you play starts falling farther & farther into the background and isn't featured much.

Wouldn't you think?

that's what people said about her....she didn't care. Robert Picardo, Robbie McNiel, Roxann Dawson, Kate Mulgrew, they've all talked about how they would every so often have a sit down with the producers and talk about where their characters were going, what they wanted, what they didn't want. Lien never did that

 

[exodus]

On a personal note.

As an actor/actress, you'd have to know somethings going wrong when the character you play starts falling farther & farther into the background and isn't featured much.

Wouldn't you think?

that's what people said about her....she didn't care. Robert Picardo, Robbie McNiel, Roxann Dawson, Kate Mulgrew, they've all talked about how they would every so often have a sit down with the producers and talk about where their characters were going, what they wanted, what they didn't want. Lien never did that

She was probably too young to know any better but it's her agent that's supposed make them aware of such things too.

Lien could of had a better career also with a better agent. Her voice alone could have continued to give her voice over work. Her voice was damn sexy.

 

[Mrs Paris]

On a personal note.

As an actor/actress, you'd have to know somethings going wrong when the character you play starts falling farther & farther into the background and isn't featured much.

Wouldn't you think?

that's what people said about her....she didn't care. Robert Picardo, Robbie McNiel, Roxann Dawson, Kate Mulgrew, they've all talked about how they would every so often have a sit down with the producers and talk about where their characters were going, what they wanted, what they didn't want. Lien never did that

She was probably too young to know any better but it's her agent that's supposed make them aware of such things too.

Lien could of had a better career also with a better agent. Her voice alone could have continued to give her voice over work. Her voice was damn sexy.

well she has done a good amount of voice over work. Though personaly I couldn't stand her voice, it sounded like it belonged on an 80 year old chain smoker

 

[exodus]

that's what people said about her....she didn't care. Robert Picardo, Robbie McNiel, Roxann Dawson, Kate Mulgrew, they've all talked about how they would every so often have a sit down with the producers and talk about where their characters were going, what they wanted, what they didn't want. Lien never did that

She was probably too young to know any better but it's her agent that's supposed make them aware of such things too.

Lien could of had a better career also with a better agent. Her voice alone could have continued to give her voice over work. Her voice was damn sexy.

well she has done a good amount of voice over work. Though personaly I couldn't stand her voice, it sounded like it belonged on an 80 year old chain smoker

Stop it!

Seriously, her voice reminded me of Kathleen Turner's or Linda Florentino. I think that's why many also found the character too be so wise. That voice just lulled you into a sense of security. Nobody suspected she'd be Emperor Palpatine the whole time.

 

[Mrs Paris]

seriously though, I do think that a big reason she was so lousy on the show was because she was so young and had little to know previous acting experience.

and I still say that Kes should have started out being played by a kid and grown into a woman durring the show. And had Neelix be like her adopted father or something

 

[exodus]

seriously though, I do think that a big reason she was so lousy on the show was because she was so young and had little to know previous acting experience.

and I still say that Kes should have started out being played by a kid and grown into a woman durring the show. And had Neelix be like her adopted father or something

I don't think was lousy on the show, her character was written poorly. I don't blame her for that but yes, I do believe she is partly at fault behind the camera due to very little experance to fight for her character.

I also feel her agent is too blame for not protecting their client by also fighting for her & making her better aware of her oppertunities.

Beyond her own choice of not wanting too, there really isn't much reason for Lien not to be in the business today, either in front of the camera or behind it.

 

[Lynx]

My oh my!

Suddenly the whole thread has turned into some "Jennifer Lien is a bad, bad person and actress and it's her own fault that she was dumped" thread.

So I must straight out some misunderstandings here.

First of all, Jennifer Lien wasn't the first choice to be dumped when a new character should be brought in, Garret Wang (Kim) was. But when an inside poll among the staff on a magazine showed Wang as one of the "50 most handsome", those in charge of the show changed their minds and dumped Jennifer Lien (Kes) instead.

As for the "not renewed contract" semantics, it's actually the same as being fired. Jennifer Lien did admit that she was fired by asked about it on a convention some years ago.

So Kes wasn't axed because of being a bad character or Jennifer being a bad actress, it was a decision made as a result of the whims of those in charge and a hasty decision too since "Scorpion" obviously was re-written and "The Gift" was written very quick too in order to get rid of Kes.

The "behind the scenes" book should not be taken as the absolute truth in this matter. Official books always contain the official propaganda from those who made the decision and are not always telling the truth. I've read a lot of crappy "official biographies" about well-known rock bands, musicians and other celebrities which have been filled with lies and pathetic explanations.

The comment that Jennifer Lien "didn't care" is downright BS to say the least. I'm sure that she cared as much as anyone else about her character and the development of it. But she is a rather shy and not too talkative person and because of that she may have been more quiet than the others in the ongoing discussions.

And those "discussions" didn't help certain other actors and characters either. Just look at Robert Beltran who had lots of discussions with those in charge about his character but they simply didn't care about his comments, therefore he got very frustrated in the long run. Garret Wang wasn't so happy either with those in charge. Maybe Jennifer realised that it was no idea to try to talk to those persons?

I don't think the character Kes was written that poorly, except for some flaws with the Ocampa such as the silly lifespan, the one-child syndrome and the silly thing about delivering children from their backs. As for Kes, she wasn't supposed to be a front-line character as much as Janeway and Chakotay. But I can agree that they could have given her more screen time. Ironically, it did look as if she was going to play a more important part of the show shortly before they dumped her.

I won't go into the debate about her management and what they could have done for her since I don't have any details but maybe she should have needed some backup from her management now and then.

When it comes to why Jennifer Lien has been more and less out of business the recent time, well maybe she was so annoyed by the way things are in the entertainment business and annoyed over the way she was treated so that she began to look for other opportunities in life. That's not uncommon by those who have been dissapointed by the entertainment business. I did read a biography by a rather well-known rock musician who told the story about a person in a well-known band he had played in. That person had joined the band at the same time as the author and been very happy to have the opportunity to be in that band. 8 months later, the same guy was so disgusted with the whole music business so he quit and began a career in some other business instead.

But Jennifer is actually credited as executive producer for her husband's new movie so she hasn't left the business totally.

 

[Unicron]

To answer the original question, I think the premise of the show was good and interesting. Just not some of the execution of that premise, and that was partly due to interference from the studio.

 

[exodus]

Lynx, I think you're taking it too personally. Nobody is saying anything bad about Lien persay, just some bad choices concerning her career in acting were made.

People have opinions. People bad mouth Jeri Ryan & Seven of Nine here all the time too from the harmless "Mary-Sue" comments to "Braga's whore" ones, you learn to deal with it. As long as I like her, what others say doesn't matter.

 

[Mrs Paris]

My oh my!

Suddenly the whole thread has turned into some "Jennifer Lien is a bad, bad person and actress and it's her own fault that she was dumped" thread.

So I must straight out some misunderstandings here.

First of all, Jennifer Lien wasn't the first choice to be dumped when a new character should be brought in, Garret Wang (Kim) was. But when an inside poll among the staff on a magazine showed Wang as one of the "50 most handsome", those in charge of the show changed their minds and dumped Jennifer Lien (Kes) instead.

As for the "not renewed contract" semantics, it's actually the same as being fired. Jennifer Lien did admit that she was fired by asked about it on a convention some years ago.

So Kes wasn't axed because of being a bad character or Jennifer being a bad actress, it was a decision made as a result of the whims of those in charge and a hasty decision too since "Scorpion" obviously was re-written and "The Gift" was written very quick too in order to get rid of Kes.

The "behind the scenes" book should not be taken as the absolute truth in this matter. Official books always contain the official propaganda from those who made the decision and are not always telling the truth. I've read a lot of crappy "official biographies" about well-known rock bands, musicians and other celebrities which have been filled with lies and pathetic explanations.

The comment that Jennifer Lien "didn't care" is downright BS to say the least. I'm sure that she cared as much as anyone else about her character and the development of it. But she is a rather shy and not too talkative person and because of that she may have been more quiet than the others in the ongoing discussions.

And those "discussions" didn't help certain other actors and characters either. Just look at Robert Beltran who had lots of discussions with those in charge about his character but they simply didn't care about his comments, therefore he got very frustrated in the long run. Garret Wang wasn't so happy either with those in charge. Maybe Jennifer realised that it was no idea to try to talk to those persons?

I don't think the character Kes was written that poorly, except for some flaws with the Ocampa such as the silly lifespan, the one-child syndrome and the silly thing about delivering children from their backs. As for Kes, she wasn't supposed to be a front-line character as much as Janeway and Chakotay. But I can agree that they could have given her more screen time. Ironically, it did look as if she was going to play a more important part of the show shortly before they dumped her.

I won't go into the debate about her management and what they could have done for her since I don't have any details but maybe she should have needed some backup from her management now and then.

When it comes to why Jennifer Lien has been more and less out of business the recent time, well maybe she was so annoyed by the way things are in the entertainment business and annoyed over the way she was treated so that she began to look for other opportunities in life. That's not uncommon by those who have been dissapointed by the entertainment business. I did read a biography by a rather well-known rock musician who told the story about a person in a well-known band he had played in. That person had joined the band at the same time as the author and been very happy to have the opportunity to be in that band. 8 months later, the same guy was so disgusted with the whole music business so he quit and began a career in some other business instead.

But Jennifer is actually credited as executive producer for her husband's new movie so she hasn't left the business totally.

why do you take comments about Lien so personaly? We're not talking about YOU

 

[Kio]

And had Neelix be like her adopted father or something

God, yes. Or maybe Kes could have reminded him of a little sister, just so long as it isn't sexual. Thinking about that couple in bed together always creeped me out. That's probably why Elogium is one of my least favorite episodes.

BTW, since we're talking about Kes, am I the only one who liked Fury and thought it added to the character? I thought there were too many loose threads (what drove Kes mad? what happened after she left Voyager as an old woman?), but it was generally good. Seeing her capacity for revenge (even if it was mostly insanity-driven) was satisfying after seeing her be sweet and innocent for so long. Now that I think about it, it fits with the slightly evil disposition of Ocampans who lived in that space station.

 

[Mrs Paris]

And had Neelix be like her adopted father or something

God, yes. Or maybe Kes could have reminded him of a little sister, just so long as it isn't sexual. Thinking about that couple in bed together always creeped me out. That's probably why Elogium is one of my least favorite episodes.

BTW, since we're talking about Kes, am I the only one who liked Fury and thought it added to the character? I thought there were too many loose threads (what drove Kes mad? what happened after she left Voyager as an old woman?), but it was generally good. Seeing her capacity for revenge (even if it was mostly insanity-driven) was satisfying after seeing her be sweet and innocent for so long. Now that I think about it, it fits with the slightly evil disposition of Ocampans who lived in that space station.

you're not the only one, I realy liked that episode. And I do think that it was a perfect follow up to Cold Fire where she first learned that she had the darker side and she said she enjoyed it

 

[Lynx]

Sorry that I have to disagree here but, to quote our old friend Tom Paris, "the best way to say it is to say it!"

"Fury" was crap! Utterly crap! An episode with no sense whatsoever. I'm still surprised that a "writer" can come up with such rubbish.

I'm not buying any of the "reasons" for the behavior of the pathetic creature who was supposed to be Kes. There was no reason at all for the real Kes to hate the Voyager crew. Why should she hate people who have helped her, who had risked their lives for her and who she had risked her life for too? It doesn't make sense.

And I don't buy the theories about Kes's "dark sides" either. She had proved many times, both in "Persistence Of Vision", "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" that she could ovecome evil forces and evil temptations. If there was anyone on that ship who could withstand evilf forces, then it was Kes.

The whole story is so full of flaws and downright stupidities that I still can't understand that a respected TV and movie company could allowed such crap to be produced. They should have put the script for the episode in a trashcan together with the "writer" who wrote it.

I see no reason at all for making such an episode. It was only annoying and insulting and didn't have any purpose for the Voyager story.

"Fury" was nothing but downright character destruction and as a fan of the character, I hate to see my favorite character being destroyed. It did take all fun out of Voyager and damaged my interest for Star Trek too.

But I guess that one have to be a fan of the character to be p***ed off by such an insulting episode and not find it "entertaining".

I hate "Fury" and those who came up with the idea for the episode.