NAZIs and STAR TREK

[CommanderRaytas]

He was joking! See the posts above.

And oh, Kegek: sorry, I forgot that you're an Irishman. I shall stop praising Corby, then. The closest I ever got to Ireland was Manchester.

 

[Michael]

I just find it hard sometimes to think of any contributions of Germany.

What about the printing press? That was kinda significant.

Yeah, that was significant. (CommanderRaytas already mentioned it, BTW.) But I guess my point is that I don't look at inventions and ask myself what country they were invented in.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I can't think of many. Kraftwerk is cool. As are Rammstein. Are there other things?

Uh.... jeez, I don't know. Television? Automobiles? Bookprint? Germany is the world's export champion, too.

Imagine America without tv and cars. It would be the end.

I still hope you were joking, though. Because otherwise, you'd be insulting your own intelligence.

I was joking! (Well, kind of.) I'm writing from Bielefeld right now. I am German myself.

I just find it hard sometimes to think of any contributions of Germany. Guess that's because I am German myself. I don't know. To be honest, I hate this differentiation anyway: Germany has done that; England has done that ... etc. I just see us as one Earth for the most part. Guess that's why I love Star Trek.

Anyway, Rammstein and Kraftwerk are still cool! BTW, wasn't the first computer (aka Rechenmachine) constructed in Germany, too (Konrad Zuse)?

Then you don't know much about history if you question the contributions the German people have made through-out history,be it technical or political. Unfortunately they all get lumped in with the Nazis. This kind of thought is a product of revisonist history, an art form the American school system has perfected.

German scientists led the way to the use of Radar and other wave form sciences. Here is a link to a great summary what I am talking about.

http://www.radarworld.org/history.pdf

Rob
scorpio

 

[CommanderRaytas]

People, let us not all make my mistake. Read the entire thread. NCC was making a joke! He's German!

I think we all agree (and know) that Germany is not AT ALL like Nazi Germany. Hasn't been for a long, long time.

And the ENT episodes were mind-boggingly and embarrassingly stupid!

 

[Michael]

Uh.... jeez, I don't know. Television? Automobiles? Bookprint? Germany is the world's export champion, too.

Imagine America without tv and cars. It would be the end.

I still hope you were joking, though. Because otherwise, you'd be insulting your own intelligence.

I was joking! (Well, kind of.) I'm writing from Bielefeld right now. I am German myself.

I just find it hard sometimes to think of any contributions of Germany. Guess that's because I am German myself. I don't know. To be honest, I hate this differentiation anyway: Germany has done that; England has done that ... etc. I just see us as one Earth for the most part. Guess that's why I love Star Trek.

Anyway, Rammstein and Kraftwerk are still cool! BTW, wasn't the first computer (aka Rechenmachine) constructed in Germany, too (Konrad Zuse)?

Then you don't know much about history if you question the contributions the German people have made through-out history,be it technical or political. Unfortunately they all get lumped in with the Nazis. This kind of thought is a product of revisonist history, an art form the American school system has perfected.

German scientists led the way to the use of Radar and other wave form sciences. Here is a link to a great summary what I am talking about.

http://www.radarworld.org/history.pdf

Rob
scorpio

Yeah, I'm German myself. But what's so wrong about not looking so closely at where something comes from? I just don't like dividing the world into different parts. I find it more important who invented something. Gutenberg introduced printing to Europe. I don't freakin' care what his nationality is! Is that a bit naive? Well, maybe yes. But that's just the way I look at things.

 

[Kegek]

^
I guess one could also point out it's rather anachronistic. Germany in the sense we know it today didn't exist at the time of Gutenberg. Germany as we know it - that is, a single German-speaking state that excludes Austria - arguably didn't exist until 1871.

This said, I could also bore people with a list of German composers, filmmakers, writers and philosophers I really admire or find interesting; but I won't. (Hint: I think I mentioned one already...) It's very much one of Europe's cultural centres and the influence of these many people in all of these fields cannot be overstated.

Fantastic country. Love vacationing there. Second best place in Europe, really.

Yeah, but who would want to live on Risa?

Fun (or pointless) fact: I'm pretty certain the name 'Risa' was coined as a reference to the German word 'Reise'.

He was joking! See the posts above.

And oh, Kegek: sorry, I forgot that you're an Irishman. I shall stop praising Corby, then.

Nah, go ahead. Never been to Corby myself. Mainly only been in the general East Anglia region.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

^ Oh, good. Corby needs all the praising it can get, actually!

 

[Michael]

This said, I could also bore people with a list of German composers, filmmakers, writers and philosophers I really admire or find interesting; but I won't. (Hint: I think I mentioned one already...)

Well, you never bore me, Kegek. However, I know there are many important German artists and scientists. I just don't think that their ancestry is the crucial factor for what they achieved. Well, I know I wouldn't want to be seen like that. Actually I consider myself some kind of artist (I make music). And I wouldn't want to be called a "German artist". I'm just an artist.

Fun (or pointless) fact: I'm pretty certain the name 'Risa' was coined as a reference to the German word 'Reise'.

Yeah, that's possible. There's also the German town Riesa (pronounced just like the planet).

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I've been living in Germany for almost 4 years now, and I like it very much.

Fantastic country. Love vacationing there. Second best place in Europe, really.

I hope I get to visit Germany as well. I took 3 yrs of German and 6 hrs in College, back in the day. Also, my wife is entirely German by blood but she never took any German, go figure!

BTW: Nazi=Bad, IMHO.

 

[SiddFinch1]

But the bottom line the point I was trying to make: Star Trek was a product of it's time and two decades after WWII people still feared the possiblity that Nazi radicals/supporters that were still alive might try something. That's why 'Nazis' were used in the 1960ies so much; much like nameless 'Islamic Terrorists' are used as 'boogeyman villians' in shows today.

Nazis were used for same reason Indiana Jones used them- easy and classic villians- Same with Radical Islamists now.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

^Agreed.

 

[TedShatner10]

The Nazis had very impressive uniforms, they had very talented scientists under their wing (inspite of their bigotry alienating or killing Jewish/gay scientists), they ran their economy somewhat better than US Neoconservatives, and they militarily outperformed their Edwardian era logistics in Europe against strategically superior opponents for years, but apart from that they absolutely stank morally overall, and their genocidal brutality was a spectacular demonstration of sheer incompetence, rather than genuine strength.

Although I really think the Americans are wrong in exclusively depicting them as just 2D monsters or faceless goons.

I'm also convinced that many stupidly myopic Nazis had recent Jewish or Slavic ancestry anyway, given the historical background of Germany and Austria, with religious conversion and migration from Southern or Eastern Europe (this obviously goes both ways since William Shatner ironically looks more Germanic than Adolf Eichmann, a small and swarthy person you wouldn't look at twice in a shopping mall in Tel Aviv, Damascus or Beirut ).

I certainly think Japanese have been given a free pass unlike the Germans, with their savage racism against fellow East Asians to be also equally puzzling, inept and childish, even though I found the wartime anti-Japanses propaganda to be genuinely sickening.

.....



...it's been a long night...

 

[RobertScorpio]

The Nazis had very impressive uniforms, they had very talented scientists under their wing (inspite of their bigotry alienating or killing Jewish/gay scientists), they ran their economy somewhat better than US Neoconservatives, and they militarily outperformed their Edwardian era logistics in Europe against strategically superior opponents for years, but apart from that they absolutely stank morally overall, and their genocidal brutality was a spectacular demonstration of sheer incompetence, rather than genuine strength.

Although I really think the Americans are wrong in exclusively depicting them as just 2D monsters or faceless goons.

I'm also convinced that many stupidly myopic Nazis had recent Jewish or Slavic ancestry anyway, given the historical background of Germany and Austria, with religious conversion and migration from Southern or Eastern Europe (this obviously goes both ways since William Shatner ironically looks more Germanic than Adolf Eichmann, a small and swarthy person you wouldn't look at twice in a shopping mall in Tel Aviv, Damascus or Beirut ).

I certainly think Japanese have been given a free pass unlike the Germans, with their savage racism against fellow East Asians to be also equally puzzling, inept and childish, even though I found the wartime anti-Japanses propaganda to be genuinely sickening.

.....



...it's been a long night...

Umm, some great stuff there Ted. And I totally agree with it. The Japanese do seem to get a free pass. I don't think we would have made it to the moon with out those German scientist, do you? But history is always written by the victors. The Nazis were absolute monsters, no doubt about it. Hitler was a complete horror by himself. But the German peopel can't ALL be lumped in together; or why not lump all Americans in with the KKK? Sweeping statements about an entire race/country are usually done by those who have no idea of history..so I am with you!

Rob

 

[TedShatner10]

Umm, some great stuff there Ted. And I totally agree with it. The Japanese do seem to get a free pass.

I guess that stems from the Americans compromising with the Japanese by allowing them to keep Emperor Hirohito and not really penalising Japan's military/industrial/political elite so they could rebuild Japan. And while UK/NZ/AUS veterans hava a right to protest about their horrific treatment at the hands of the Japanese military in WWII, not to be un-PC I get the impression there is an ingrained racial/cultural bias at work in Western consciousness if the majority of the millions of people murdered by the Japanese were non-white and were on the otherside of the globe and that the Holocaust is much easier to relate to in popular culture due to it's victims being disproportinately represented in the Western media (to be firm but fair, not that I think relatively obscure acts of mass murder are more acceptable on any level and I really think many Japanese are arrogant in not apologising for their warcrimes).

However some ex-IRS twit that lacks personality and who is a Governor on Stardestroyer.Net under the guise of a mediocre Marvel comic book character wrongly assumed I was supposedly exonerating the horrific warcrimes of the Japanese simply because I was brutally honest in pointing out that many Western people are apathetic to genocidal brutality against non-whites and then he ranted and raved about me believing in the Jewish Zionist Conspiracy when I pointed out there were no movies about the Rape of Nanking but plenty about the Holocaust (despite the fact I have no time for fuckwitted Nazi apologists such as David Irving, that I think there still seems to be malicious ignorance about the Holocaust in Eastern Europe and that I'm probably quater Jewish myself on my Welsh side).

He's strawmanning a UK poster right now for discrediting Obama when he allegedly stated vaccinations supposedly cause autism.

I don't think we would have made it to the moon with out those German scientist, do you? But history is always written by the victors.

Van Braunn was integral to NASA's successs and Russia had a head start in the Space Race due to getting more German rocket scientists, but on the other hand they were not getting very far with their own A-bomb project due to miscalculations and lack of resources (which directly stemmed from Nazi arrogance).

The Nazis were absolute monsters, no doubt about it. Hitler was a complete horror by himself.

I don't put much stock into the popular opinion of him being an awful artist, but that's akin to finding a chocolate bar amid a mountain of steaming horse shit with blood in it.

But the German peopel can't ALL be lumped in together; or why not lump all Americans in with the KKK? Sweeping statements about an entire race/country are usually done by those who have no idea of history..so I am with you!

Rob

And I certainly think it is wrong to assume all Muslim Arabs are terrorists, ignore the Sunni/Shi-ite split in Islam itself, ignore that Iranians are not fully Semitic, ignorant to the fact that many Arabs are Christian or Jewish as well and whitewash the fact that Jewish Zionism has it's own brand of aggressive terrorism as a cornerstone (that is as successful and more supported among Westerners than the KKK).

 

[ToddPence]

Garth mentions Hitler in "Whom Gods Destroy".

 

[Forbin]

They made their Anti-nazi messages to an audience for whom that was recent history.

It was 30 years later.

It was 20 years later. The target age for the audience was young boys whose parents were in the war.

Men who fought in the war were still only in their 40s - my Dad was 44 in 1966 - who might have enjoyed the show.

The writers of the show were of the age of men who fought in the war, and many WERE men who fought in the war, bringing their experiences and lessons to thetheir work.

Many concurrent TV series were running WWII-related stories - Mission Impossible had a number of Nazi episodes. Hawaii 5-0 had many "old Japanese soldier" and Pearl Harbor-related stories. Hogan's Heroes was on the air. Gilligan's Island had a Japanese holdout episode. The Rat Patrol and 12 O'Clock High were on the air.

Hollywood was cranking out WWII movies. Dirty Dozen, Battle of Britain, Von Ryan's Express. And still making them thru Trek and after Trek - Kelly's Heroes, Patton, Tora Tora Tora...

 

[RobertScorpio]

They made their Anti-nazi messages to an audience for whom that was recent history.

It was 30 years later.

It was 20 years later. The target age for the audience was young boys whose parents were in the war.

Men who fought in the war were still only in their 40s - my Dad was 44 in 1966 - who might have enjoyed the show.

The writers of the show were of the age of men who fought in the war, and many WERE men who fought in the war, bringing their experiences and lessons to thetheir work.

Many concurrent TV series were running WWII-related stories - Mission Impossible had a number of Nazi episodes. Hawaii 5-0 had many "old Japanese soldier" and Pearl Harbor-related stories. Hogan's Heroes was on the air. Gilligan's Island had a Japanese holdout episode. The Rat Patrol and 12 O'Clock High were on the air.

Hollywood was cranking out WWII movies. Dirty Dozen, Battle of Britain, Von Ryan's Express. And still making them thru Trek and after Trek - Kelly's Heroes, Patton, Tora Tora Tora...

You are quite right Forbin. One of my favorite Hawaii Five 0 episodes is when that japanese General, who has assumed a new idendity, sets out to ruin the lives of the men who wouldn't 'break' when he had tortured them..great episode...

Rob
scorpio

 

[Forbin]

Anybody who doesn't think there are a lot of people who can identify WWII German uniforms has never been to a plastic model show. Those armor guys do some dioramas that are simply stunning, very extensive, and every soldier has a perfectly correct uniform.

I think WWII German regalia and vehicles is not only one of the most popular historical hobbies out there, it's also one of the most well-documented and well-researched.

 

[Michael]

I think WWII German regalia and vehicles is not only one of the most popular historical hobbies out there, it's also one of the most well-documented and well-researched.

What I would like to know is why that is such a popular hobby. Strikes me as rather macabre.

 

[Kegek]

I think WWII German regalia and vehicles is not only one of the most popular historical hobbies out there, it's also one of the most well-documented and well-researched.

What I would like to know is why that is such a popular hobby. Strikes me as rather macabre.

From my experience; some people just find militaries fascinating. That's not limited to the Nazis; the British in particular are a popular subject (as is the Napoleonic era, and so on). I can see the appeal of studying strategy, tactics and dresswear, it is an interesting topic.

Now, if there's any specific appeal that the Wehrmacht has above and beyond other armies, I'd be at a loss to identify it*... beyond, perhaps, it having saturated pop culture consciousness more than most.

*ignoring its appeal to neofascists etc. which is obvious.