Starship Platform Lifespans

[Albertese]

@Dukhat That is interesting info about the intent to build and use the Probert-Ambassador. I didn't know that!

Doesn't make a difference to my argument though. Your mileage may vary, of course.

@Ithekro That's kind of my idea as well. Premier ship classes tool around near home until they are proven enough to start out on the deep space assignments.

I posit that the Galaxy-class didn't actually preform well enough to get the long range assignments they were designed for, suggesting a reason why they are so disrespected in the Picard-era.

--Alex

 

[Dukhat]

@Dukhat That is interesting info about the intent to build and use the Probert-Ambassador. I didn't know that!

From what I understand, the producers didn't want any new Starfleet models built because they would rather have used the movie models they already owned to save on costs, which was why the Fearless was never built. Probert then tried to convince them to use his Enterprise-C matte painting instead of a model, but that was nixed too. Probert was never happy that Starfleet would still be using what he felt were outdated designs by the TNG era, a notion I’ve always agreed with.

https://blog.trekcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/probert-painting.jpg

Doesn't make a difference to my argument though. Your mileage may vary, of course.

I wouldn't use the term 'argument.' It's just two differing opinions which both have merit but can't be definitively proven.

 

[B.J.]

It was made from the destroyed TMP Enterprise saucer from STIII, so it wasn't an Ambassador class.

Took me a minute to realize you were talking about behind-the-scenes production info, and not in-universe info. Had me wondering how they salvaged the saucer after it had been blown up, burned, and crashed!

 

[Albertese]

I wouldn't use the term 'argument.' It's just two differing opinions which both have merit but can't be definitively proven.

Of course! I had meant argue in the sense of a well-reasoned friendly debate, not "I'm here to fight you!" Your conclusions are just as valid as mine. I'd love to see even more takes on the show!

--Alex

 

[Dukhat]

I'd love to see even more takes on the show!

It would be great if we'd gotten a Lost Era show for that, but the chances that will happen now are not good.

 

[Airmandan]

I know I'm dragging this thread back up which has been quiet for a few months. But do we actually know that the Constitution Refits were a successful class? The question about the early retirement of the 1701 after refit and the toothing issues and early decommissioning of the A makes me wonder if they simply couldn't get the refits to work as well as they hoped. That would explain the lack of them in universe after TUC, that also explains why a "almost brand-new ship" after the refit was relatively quickly turned over to the academy. They stroked Kirks ego when they gave him the A but in reality they were just giving him a ship frame that had reached obsolesce.

 

[Mage]

I know I'm dragging this thread back up which has been quiet for a few months. But do we actually know that the Constitution Refits were a successful class? The question about the early retirement of the 1701 after refit and the toothing issues and early decommissioning of the A makes me wonder if they simply couldn't get the refits to work as well as they hoped. That would explain the lack of them in universe after TUC, that also explains why a "almost brand-new ship" after the refit was relatively quickly turned over to the academy. They stroked Kirks ego when they gave him the A but in reality they were just giving him a ship frame that had reached obsolesce.

Honestly? In universe I would love that as a reasoning. They spend a lot of time researching new tech and literally rebuild the 1701 to showcase it all AND make it a new (sub)class. But ultimately, even thought the new tech proved very much worthwhile and useful for fleet wide implementation, the new subclas was way much more trouble as it was worth.

IRL, the model from the movies was a bitch to film and they needed models easier for the shows.

 

[Dukhat]

I always got the impression that the Excelsior class's goal was to make the Constitution class obsolete. But that was just speculation based on Morrow and Style's attitudes.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I always got the impression that the Excelsior class's goal was to make the Constitution class obsolete. But that was just speculation based on Morrow and Style's attitudes.

It worked, the Enterprise-B was a Excelsior class.

 

[Unicron]

I know I'm dragging this thread back up which has been quiet for a few months. But do we actually know that the Constitution Refits were a successful class? The question about the early retirement of the 1701 after refit and the toothing issues and early decommissioning of the A makes me wonder if they simply couldn't get the refits to work as well as they hoped. That would explain the lack of them in universe after TUC, that also explains why a "almost brand-new ship" after the refit was relatively quickly turned over to the academy. They stroked Kirks ego when they gave him the A but in reality they were just giving him a ship frame that had reached obsolesce.

Speaking solely for myself, I always found the decommissioning of the A to be rather silly when we see other designs like the Miranda still seeing some degree of service in the TNG era. The Excelsior is kind of an interesting class when you look at some of the offscreen material, as FASA considered it a battleship (built directly to compete with Klingon and Romulan counterparts, alongside the Indomitable class) and not an explorer. There was a controversy over the decision to make the B an Excelsior, as some wanted it to be a Constellation instead in keeping with the Enterprise's traditional exploration role.

Other sources like Jackill and SotS have assumed the Excelsiors wound up effectively replacing the Constitution/Enterprise class vessels, and I can certainly see that as one possibility. Jackill has a whole family of Excelsior type designs which are successors to the FJ classes, along with some more original designs, and I like the idea that these would probably still have been in production in the early 24th century before the evolution of the Ambassador and Galaxy families. Given that Jackill also has TMP type refits of those classes too, it would seem a tad silly to spend all that time refitting them just to replace them.

I also like that FASA allowed for some vessels to rotate out of Starfleet service and into colonial or civilian markets, typically if they were older generations of technology and after they'd had any "sensitive" stuff removed. It would be one avenue of keeping such designs in service longer, and some star systems might only have access to older shipyards. Perhaps ships of the Constitution family could have been relegated to those systems, though I like to think some stayed in Starfleet as well.

 

[Airmandan]

Speaking solely for myself, I always found the decommissioning of the A to be rather silly when we see other designs like the Miranda still seeing some degree of service in the TNG era. The Excelsior is kind of an interesting class when you look at some of the offscreen material, as FASA considered it a battleship (built directly to compete with Klingon and Romulan counterparts, alongside the Indomitable class) and not an explorer. There was a controversy over the decision to make the B an Excelsior, as some wanted it to be a Constellation instead in keeping with the Enterprise's traditional exploration role.

Other sources like Jackill and SotS have assumed the Excelsiors wound up effectively replacing the Constitution/Enterprise class vessels, and I can certainly see that as one possibility. Jackill has a whole family of Excelsior type designs which are successors to the FJ classes, along with some more original designs, and I like the idea that these would probably still have been in production in the early 24th century before the evolution of the Ambassador and Galaxy families. Given that Jackill also has TMP type refits of those classes too, it would seem a tad silly to spend all that time refitting them just to replace them.

I also like that FASA allowed for some vessels to rotate out of Starfleet service and into colonial or civilian markets, typically if they were older generations of technology and after they'd had any "sensitive" stuff removed. It would be one avenue of keeping such designs in service longer, and some star systems might only have access to older shipyards. Perhaps ships of the Constitution family could have been relegated to those systems, though I like to think some stayed in Starfleet as well.

I'm not saying the TMP refits of the fleet were a failure, but perhaps the Constitution variants were. We know the Miranda class lasted on, and the Excelsiors seemed to get more of the upgrades based on what we saw from SFS compared to TUC. From the design of the secondary hull of the Enterprise from TMP I wonder if there was enough room for the enhanced and newer engine designs. Given how easily Khan was able to disable the Enterprise in TWOK, its power distribution systems were vulnerable and fairly easily damaged. Yes, I know shields were down, but it still appears to be a design concern. Based on all the designs we saw going forward we saw a much more streamlined hull design for Starfleet ships, perhaps the long necks of the Constitution proved some kind of design bottleneck.

 

[Tarek71]

Based on how fighters and tanks use "generations" to group the technological progress of fighters and tanks, I came up with something similar to show the ships that were at the cutting edge of capability for their time.

NX-01 (1st Generation)
Daedalus (2nd Generation)
Unknown (3rd Generation)
Constitution (4th Generation)
Excelsior (5th Generation)
Ambassador (6th Generation)
Galaxy (7th Generation)
Sovereign (8th Generation)
Odyssey (9th Generation)

So I think we have a core number of ships of varying types (exploratory cruiser, science, destroyers, frigates) that form the "front line" ships. 4th generation would include Miranda and Oberth classes as well as the Constitution. However, for many tasks, ships on the razors edge of technology are not necessary. So the Oberth and Mirandas were still around in the 7th Generation era of the Galaxy Class. These may not be 100 year old hulls. They may have built new Mirandas well into the 24th Century. But the design, despite many upgrades Im sure, is long since stopped being the cutting edge. But for routine patrols, transport, cargo, surveying missions, etc. it could be that these tried and true designs still perform the task well enough to stay in service.

In the real world, cost is a major factor. Not sure how that works with the Federation economy. I can see why the ships on the frontier, going where no one has gone before, are assigned to the most advanced ships in each generation. But many other tasks, an Oberth is good enough for the job.

 

[publiusr]

I have the idea that Starship-class could refer to a general swan type design that resembles swans...Constitution one of many?

Perhaps the original 12 were special, with FJ/Achernar the mass produced version.

 

[Ithekro]

I would think the refit Constitutions were used for much of the early 24th century. They are eventually replaced by Excelsior-class starships over the course of decades and go into lesser rolls, eventually retiring most of the class by the mid-24th century. There may have been at least one left in service by the mid-2360s, as we see what looks to be a wreck of one at Wolf 359. But by the 2370s they seem to be all gone, which would make sense. The hulls would be closing on a century old, even if they were new builds instead of refit Constitutions from the 40s - 60s. The Miranda-class ships would hold on until the late 70s and maybe the early 80s, while the Excelsiors seem to hold until the 90s.

It may be a matter of not too many Constitution II-class hulls being produced between the relaunch of the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) in the early 2270s and the start of full production of the Excelsior-class around 2290. Were there a lot of new built Constitution IIs? Were a lot older ships refit to those specs after the 2260s started to show the age of the Constitution-class after the loss of at least three of them in the later half of the decade? There are at least fifteen years where the Federation could be building Constitution II-class starships. They are also building Miranda-class ship types and working on both the Constellation and Excelsior-class projects by the 80s.

The main thing is that we rarely see any other Constitution II-class ships. Largely because the producers think the audience will think it is the Enterprise and that the model was hard to work with. We have basically the two USS Enterprises on screen and less than a handful of unidentified starships seen in partial or wrecks. With a few additional ships on paper that may or may not be Constitution II-class starships. It be nice to see some more of them around from time to time. Even in Picard's time, it was still considered one of the prettier starships.

 

[Dukhat]

Have we ever seen a Constitution II refit other than the Enterprise and Enterprise-A?

 

[David cgc]

Have we ever seen a Constitution II refit other than the Enterprise and Enterprise-A?

The wreck(s) in BoBW, the Olympia in that episode of DS9, the icons on the Operation: Retrieve poster in TUC, and the orphaned nacelles at the end of TVH are all possibilities, but nothing unambiguous.

 

[Ithekro]

Basically two known starships. Speculative wrecks that may have been Constitution IIs. Some ships on paper that may be Constitution IIs but we aren't sure it they represent them. Scott's ship plans that I think have NCC-1700 on the ship. And the mentioned random nacelle or two that could be from a Constitution II in Spacedock.

We have far more known Constitution I class starships from TOS, SNW, and Picard (New Jersey). It is slightly odd that we saw no older Constitutions during the films. You would this there would still be a few flying around, or in Spacedock. Or maybe by the mid-80s most of those were being refit, which is how we got the Enterprise-A. Though she seems "new" from how Kirk and Scott talk about her.

And we've only seen one Constitution III with no notes on if anymore were built.

 

[David cgc]

Well, hero ships are always weirdly distributed compared to guest ships that don't have the same narrative obligation to be distinctive. We didn't see a second Sovereign-class ship until 2022. We've only ever seen three Intrepid-classes, and one of those was only allowed for logistical reasons since DS9 needed a guest ship with more rooms than could be reasonably redressed from the Defiant.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, hero ships are always weirdly distributed compared to guest ships that don't have the same narrative obligation to be distinctive. We didn't see a second Sovereign-class ship until 2022. We've only ever seen three Intrepid-classes, and one of those was only allowed for logistical reasons since DS9 needed a guest ship with more rooms than could be reasonably redressed from the Defiant.

This is true. The producers would never show other ships of a hero ship's class because they thought the audience was stupid and they'd think that random vessel was the Enterprise, Voyager, Defiant, etc. etc.

BTW, besides Voyager herself and the Bellerophon, what other Intrepid class was ever shown on screen?

 

[David cgc]

BTW, besides Voyager herself and the Bellerophon, what other Intrepid class was ever shown on screen?

There was one from a parallel universe where everything was tiny at the beginning of the last season Lower Decks. I would’ve forgotten it if I hadn’t double-checked.