I don't get it.

[Mrs Paris]

Age has nothing to do with knowledge/Life Experance. Someone 21 years old and has traveled the world would have more life experances than someone 40 who's never ventured outside a small rural town. Someone 50 living in Queens, NY (The most densely populated multi-cultural place within the US) would have more life experance & knowledge of other cultures than someone 18 who lives in in a town in Ohio populated only by one race.

It sounds like we're in agreement here.

Kes has no experance of life outside her "city" or culture regardless of her age by anyones standards.

This part had me confused. Kes left her city and was living among the Kazon for a while where she would have seen spaceships, etc. She then met Neelix sho also had a spaceship and some advanced technology and probably told her stories of the places he had been. All this happened BEFORE she finally ended up on Voyager.

In Ocampan terms Kes is the 21 year old who traveled the world in your example and yes she would have acquired a lot of experience despite her age.

What are we arguing about again?

but we don't know how long Kes was on the surface, it could have been anywhere from a few days to a few months

 

[kimc]

but we don't know how long Kes was on the surface, it could have been anywhere from a few days to a few months

Well it was long enough to meet up with Neelix once or twice. She was also on the surface long enough for the Ocampa who knew her to wonder what had become of her. Since she turned two on Voyager though I'd say it was at most a month or two - which can be the human equivalent of years to an Ocampa.

 

[Mrs Paris]

like dog years

 

[Lynx]

but we don't know how long Kes was on the surface, it could have been anywhere from a few days to a few months

Well it was long enough to meet up with Neelix once or twice. She was also on the surface long enough for the Ocampa who knew her to wonder what had become of her. Since she turned two on Voyager though I'd say it was at most a month or two - which can be the human equivalent of years to an Ocampa.

According to the book "Pathways", she met Neelix for the first time five weeks after being captured by the Kazon. Neelix continued to visit the camp for two weeks more until he was chased away after stealing water and giving it to Kes. Two-three days later Neelix and the Voyager crew rescued her.

So we can estimate that she was being held as proisoner by the Kazon for about 7 weeks.

 

[Mrs Paris]

but we don't know how long Kes was on the surface, it could have been anywhere from a few days to a few months

Well it was long enough to meet up with Neelix once or twice. She was also on the surface long enough for the Ocampa who knew her to wonder what had become of her. Since she turned two on Voyager though I'd say it was at most a month or two - which can be the human equivalent of years to an Ocampa.

According to the book "Pathways", she met Neelix for the first time five weeks after being captured by the Kazon. Neelix continued to visit the camp for two weeks more until he was chased away after stealing water and giving it to Kes. Two-three days later Neelix and the Voyager crew rescued her.

So we can estimate that she was being held as proisoner by the Kazon for about 7 weeks.

well books aren't canon, but that does sound good. Several weeks does sound better than having her there for months. If she had been there for months I think it would have been too big of a percentage of her life

 

[kimc]

like dog years

Kind of. My dog was just shy of sixteen when she died recently and the usual comment was "Wow, you had her for a while!"

Sure, it may have been a while for her but for me it wasn't nearly long enough (looking at it in human terms).

To an Ocampa with a lifespan of nine years one year is going to seem longer than it will to humans.

And with that I think I'm done beating this point with a mallet...

 

[Mrs Paris]

try the sledge hammer

 

[exodus]

Well it was long enough to meet up with Neelix once or twice. She was also on the surface long enough for the Ocampa who knew her to wonder what had become of her. Since she turned two on Voyager though I'd say it was at most a month or two - which can be the human equivalent of years to an Ocampa.

According to the book "Pathways", she met Neelix for the first time five weeks after being captured by the Kazon. Neelix continued to visit the camp for two weeks more until he was chased away after stealing water and giving it to Kes. Two-three days later Neelix and the Voyager crew rescued her.

So we can estimate that she was being held as proisoner by the Kazon for about 7 weeks.

well books aren't canon, but that does sound good. Several weeks does sound better than having her there for months. If she had been there for months I think it would have been too big of a percentage of her life

Actually, "Pathways" is considered canon and was meant to be because it's written by the writters/producers of the show.

However, while on the surface with the Kazon the book states that Kes was forbidden by the Kazon to leave the encampment. She never saw inside their ships and had limited exposure to their technology. Even if she did, none of their were anything close to Voyager.

The point is kimc, reading a book about war isn't the same as being in one. Kes could have read every book ever made, it still doesn't always prepare you or is equal to a real life learning experance. IOW, reading a book on driving doesn't make anybody a good driver. It just means you learned the rules of the road.

 

[Mrs Paris]

no, books are not canon. Especialy pathways since lots of what was in it has been contradicted by actual CANON episodes. Pathways is the closes to being canon though

 

[exodus]

"All around the Mulberry bush the Monkey chanced the Weasel......."

 

[Mrs Paris]

so am I the bush or the weasel

 

[Lynx]

According to the book "Pathways", she met Neelix for the first time five weeks after being captured by the Kazon. Neelix continued to visit the camp for two weeks more until he was chased away after stealing water and giving it to Kes. Two-three days later Neelix and the Voyager crew rescued her.

So we can estimate that she was being held as proisoner by the Kazon for about 7 weeks.

well books aren't canon, but that does sound good. Several weeks does sound better than having her there for months. If she had been there for months I think it would have been too big of a percentage of her life

Actually, "Pathways" is considered canon and was meant to be because it's written by the writters/producers of the show.

However, while on the surface with the Kazon the book states that Kes was forbidden by the Kazon to leave the encampment. She never saw inside their ships and had limited exposure to their technology. Even if she did, none of their were anything close to Voyager.

The point is kimc, reading a book about war isn't the same as being in one. Kes could have read every book ever made, it still doesn't always prepare you or is equal to a real life learning experance. IOW, reading a book on driving doesn't make anybody a good driver. It just means you learned the rules of the road.

Sorry but I must once again point tout that the Ocampa society was a high-tech society too so I guess that Kes was used to high-tech from her homeworld and as I've also stated before, even if we didn't see her in awe of all technology on the ship, she may have been in awe of it but not showing it.

She also had more than a month between "Caretaker" and "Parallax" to adjust to it.

I also want to state that "canon" should not be taken literally word for word, assuming that everything on screen never happened.

"Canon" is a guideline for viewers and authors, setting a standard for the characters so that contradictions from one episode to another and from episods to books can be avoided.

For example, if an autor who has written a Voyager book states in the book that Janeay hates coffee and prefer chocolate, then it is a violation of canon and a contradiction to established Star Trek history because, as we all know, Janeway loves coffee.

But if the same autor writes chapter int he book where Janeway drinks chocolate in her quarters insetad of coffee, it's no viloaltion of canon or contradiction since Janeway may drink chocolate from time to time too.

Most contradictions between episodes and books doesn't violate canon on purpose. Some of the early books were written before certain events in the series had happened. In two books, "The Murdered Sun" and "Cybersong", Kes and Neelix share the same quarters because those books were written or at least in production when it was revealed in "Twisted" that they had separate quarters. Therefore we must either sort out that information when we read the books or simply assume that they might have shared the same quarters for some time but didn't do it later on (I prefer the former alternative).

The same for Chakotay's spirit guide which many authors assumed was a bear or wolf until it was revealed in the book "Pathways" that it was a snake. Since "Pathways" is written by one of the creators of the show, we must assume that the snake is Chakotay's spirit guide and sort out the information about bears, wolves and other mammals.

But despite some small contradictions which can easily be overlooked, the Voyager books are written after the existing guidelines and therefore it's possible to assume that the events in those books did take place during the crew's journey through the Delta Quadrant. To simply dismiss the events in the books as "it's not canon and therefore never happened" is a bit rigid.

Besides that, even in the TV episodes there are contradictions as well. Some of them are expplained in the book "Star Trek Chronology" by Michael and Denise Okuda. One such example is from TNG when it was stated in the episode "Legacy" that Tasha Yar joined the crew after Picard becoming captain of the ship while the episode "Encounter At Farpoint" states that Yar already was a member of the crew when Picard became captain. Therefore "canon" can't be interpreted as the one and only law. Instead it should be regarded as a guideline for the series and the characters.

My season 1-3 Voyager bookreviews with some odd things and contradictions mentioned can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/bookreviews.html

 

[exodus]

If she learned all about the ship in a months gap inbewteen, then character Kes was written poorly from the start.

What's the point of the character living for only 9 years if they weren't going to show her learn and grow? What's the point of showing her the galaxy and all the wonders of a life she's never had, if the character wasn't going to show awe over her new discoveries?

 

[Mrs Paris]

If she learned all about the ship in a months gap inbewteen, then character Kes was written poorly from the start.

What's the point of the character living for only 9 years if they weren't going to show her learn and grow? What's the point of showing her the galaxy and all the wonders of a life she's never had, if the character wasn't going to show awe over her new discoveries?

and what's the point of the show at all if all the interesting character developing stuff happens between episodes

 

[exodus]

If she learned all about the ship in a months gap inbewteen, then character Kes was written poorly from the start.

What's the point of the character living for only 9 years if they weren't going to show her learn and grow? What's the point of showing her the galaxy and all the wonders of a life she's never had, if the character wasn't going to show awe over her new discoveries?

and what's the point of the show at all if all the interesting character developing stuff happens between episodes

Whaaaaaaat, I'm sayin'!!!

 

[Mrs Paris]

If she learned all about the ship in a months gap inbewteen, then character Kes was written poorly from the start.

What's the point of the character living for only 9 years if they weren't going to show her learn and grow? What's the point of showing her the galaxy and all the wonders of a life she's never had, if the character wasn't going to show awe over her new discoveries?

and what's the point of the show at all if all the interesting character developing stuff happens between episodes

Whaaaaaaat, I'm sayin'!!!

Word!

 

[exodus]

and what's the point of the show at all if all the interesting character developing stuff happens between episodes

Whaaaaaaat, I'm sayin'!!!

Word!

HOLLA BACK!!!!

Where my dogs at!?

 

[Lynx]

If she learned all about the ship in a months gap inbewteen, then character Kes was written poorly from the start.

What's the point of the character living for only 9 years if they weren't going to show her learn and grow? What's the point of showing her the galaxy and all the wonders of a life she's never had, if the character wasn't going to show awe over her new discoveries?

In that case we are back to what I've always stated:

Bad writing and poor writers!

The nine-year lifespan was a serious mistake. A species with such a short lifespan would never be able to develope into more than a primate, too short time to learn and develope. I have a feeling that the writes didn't know what they were doing when they created that. Not to mention the "one-child syndrome" and how they deliver their children. Sometimes I wonder what they were on when they came up with those things.

As I see it, Voyager suffered from erratic writing. There were a lot of things which the writers came up with which were unusable or never explained. It was like they had some contest about coming up with the most unique and spectacular things, like "oh, we've never have had that in Star Trek before" and when it didn't work, they forgot it or just kept going as if nothing had happened, like "oh, never mind, the viewers won't notice the error".

If they had been smart, they could have simply prolonged Kes's life-span. There were actually hints that they were planning to do that, most notably in "Cold Fire".

And the errors don't ruin Kes as a character that much. She's still an unique character who really personifies the spirit of Star Trek withher will to learn and explore.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
You're right to a degree, however, the Ocompan life span isn't the biggest logical reach Star Trek writers ever committed. Each show has its fair share of utter gaffs.

 

[Mrs Paris]

I'm glad they didn't prolong her lifespan. The 9-year thing was one of the only things that was interesting about Kes. Other than that how was she realy different from any of the other dozen alien races with funny ears and mental powers