Spoilers Russell T. Davies' Second Turn as Doctor Who Showrunner

[jaime]

This argument assumes critics predicted an immediate ratings crash after The Timeless Children. Most didn't. The actual claim is that the story damaged long-term goodwill, audience investment, and confidence in the show's direction. A controversial creative decision can harm a franchise without producing an instant collapse in overnight viewing figures, especially in an era of catch-up viewing, streaming, and audience inertia. The absence of an immediate ratings drop is therefore not evidence that the Timeless Child had no negative impact.
To put it in another way: If the show was already struggling to retain viewers and rebuild enthusiasm since Capaldi, introducing one of the most divisive mythology changes in the show's history that was also dipped deeply into the programme's vast lore expanse was unlikely to help. The fact that some viewers continued watching Flux doesn't disprove that. Audience disengagement often manifests gradually through reduced goodwill, weaker word-of-mouth, and fewer lapsed viewers returning to the programme, all of which did occur as a result of the introduction of a controversial retcon arriving during an existing period of audience erosion was more likely to deepen the problem than solve it. Coupled with Chibnall's detached sensibilities of handling the show unlike either of his predecessors and that showrunner's own disengagement with the very narrative bomb he introduced (this forum and others were basically filtered with "let's just wait until his last story to see how he plans to resolve this" until he never ever did) and you have the equivalent of the cause of the cancellation of the programme - exactly similarly to OldWho, who's own cancellation was much less the Cartmel era but rather the Sixth Doctor's first season (or, even more accurately, The Twin Dilemma).

So much this.
Then RTD said ‘hold my beer’.

 

[jaime]

Only quasi related, and I don’t think it’s why no bugger was watching anymore (Blame Corrie being on the other side) but I think Season 26 of Who may actually be the only one I can think of with Queer subtext in every single story.
(And no, I don’t count camp or all the homoerotic stuff that creeps in from season 18 onwards, some of which is ocassionally a bit creepy)

All of NuWho, even the bits I like, wishes it was as consistent as Season 26.

The last two years alone have been managing to fail at even being Battlefield, despite their money and production quality surpassing it.

 

[DigificWriter]

I’m sure he does.
But it’s hardly something I have pulled out of thin air, as evidenced by that slashfilm post. And the Guardian journalist etc.

Subjective, opinionated analysis isn't evidence.

 

[jaime]

Subjective, opinionated analysis isn't evidence.

It is in media criticism.
Plus, you can take into account Death of the Author if you really must.

Do you know, I’ve just realised you remind me of K9.
Don’t go to Brighton. Big waves.

 

[JD]

I think it may have been a consideration for Disney, but tbh *any* American mainstream channel is more small c conservative than British TV in general. The problem is that in its home market and home audience, in a landscape already fragmented and on its uppers, it didn’t play safe enough at a time it probably really needed to.

Captain Jack kissing the Ninth Doctor in Parting of the Ways/Bad Wolf caused barely a flicker twenty years ago. Rogue had a much bigger backlash two years ago. Part of that is a change in audience tastes, but part of it is very much the approach taken. Thats ignoring online — you’re gonna have a bunch of ‘critics’ who love it because it suits them, and you’re gonna have a bunch who hate it because it suits *them*.
Theres a lot at play in the differences between the two scenes, but a big one is thinking about where your general audience is.

If you’re a Saturday Tea Time Action/Adventure Family Show, there are ways of doing things, and things to not do.
For me personally, Doctor Who already started crossing that line when it had kids dying beneath the Thames Ice Fair in Season 10. Sometimes it inches back, and sometimes I don’t even notice because well, I’m a fan. But it’s been varying degrees off that for almost a decade now. It’s happened before, and the show has always course corrected, whether that was with Williams in the Seventies, or Cartmel replacing Saward in the Eighties. (Tbh thats more on JNT keeping a closer eye after the 85 hiatus, and maybe recognising Sawardian Who really was going places it shouldn’t. Revelation is a wonderful piece of drama, but is too much for an audience that covers children and adults at once.)

You’re right though — regardless of what fans, or programme makers, think, theres an implicit promise of a certain level of what might (rightly or wrongly) be considered ‘safety’ on certain channels and certain shows, and Who was dancing on a knife edge somewhat clumsily at times. And it wasn’t good enough to even pass that off as bravery. (The Zygon Inversion danced right on that blade and off that blade with some of its imagery and aspects, as did the Monk three parter, and it was good drama as a result. A lot of Capaldi era Moffat did that, but objectively it probably went too far many many times. ‘Don’t Cremate Me’. ‘Pain. Pain.’)

This pisses me off so much, it's fucking 2026, there is no way that having a show having a black, gay lead should be considered "edgy" or controversial. Black people exist, and gay people exist, and sometime people are both of these things, there is no way acknowledging this fact should be any kind of a problem.

 

[jaime]

This pisses me off so much, it's fucking 2026, there is no way that having a show having a black, gay lead should be considered "edgy" or controversial. Black people exist, and gay people exist, and sometime people are both of these things, there is no way acknowledging this fact should be any kind of a problem.

I quite agree.

But I also think how the sexuality was injected into the story and character onscreen, quite aside from being incredibly clumsy (and to my knowledge also managing to offend some gay men along the way) might have alienated a chunk of people who just don’t expect that approach in Who.
It’s always worth asking why an audience that embraced Captain Jack so massively, didn’t have the same reaction to Rogue and the events of that episode.
That rejection is at least easy to understand, if you sit and think about it long enough though.

I don’t have any understanding for why a Black Doctor would be rejected simply for that reason, but I do also think RTD can’t write one. In fact what he did with the character was bloody awful, and insulting frankly.
His track record with Black characters in general is pretty effing awful tbh.

The one thing that applies in both cases though is that audiences more and more will reject things if they think it is being done for tokenistic or preaching reasons. Which isn’t helped by some of the way the production team (well… RTD himself mainly) present things.

The British Public Viewing Audience is both very friendly, forgiving, and curious, but also extremely bloody minded.
Metaphorically speaking, they will eat the vegetables if you put them on the plate, but if that’s all you give them and keep telling them to eat them, well…

It’s so easy to order takeaway these days.

 

[JD]

I quite agree.

Oh, I thought you supported that kind of attitude. I guess I owe you an apology.

But I also think how the sexuality was injected into the story and character onscreen, quite aside from being incredibly clumsy (and to my knowledge also managing to offend some gay men along the way) might have alienated a chunk of people who just don’t expect that approach in Who.
It’s always worth asking why an audience that embraced Captain Jack so massively, didn’t have the same reaction to Rogue and the events of that episode.
That rejection is at least easy to understand, if you sit and think about it long enough though.

Was the difference in the acceptance the stories themselves, or just the different attitudes of the times where they aired. It just feels like we've really gone backwards in the last decade or so, and I think that probably has more to do with it than anything else.
It also seemed at times like Jack and his sexuality was a little more over the top, and at times almost a joke, and I think sometimes people who would not usually accept a character like Jack when they're presented that way.
From what I remember of it, Rogue took a much more straightforward approach to the title character, and the Doctor and their relationship.

I don’t have any understanding for why a Black Doctor would be rejected simply for that reason, but I do also think RTD can’t write one. In fact what he did with the character was bloody awful, and insulting frankly.
His track record with Black characters in general is pretty effing awful tbh.

To be fair though, the only episode that really dealt with Fifteen's blackness was The Story & The Engine, which was written buy the Nigerian born Inua Ellams, and I believe it was one of the best received episodes of his entire run.

The one thing that applies in both cases though is that audiences more and more will reject things if they think it is being done for tokenistic or preaching reasons. Which isn’t helped by some of the way the production team (well… RTD himself mainly) present things.

The British Public Viewing Audience is both very friendly, forgiving, and curious, but also extremely bloody minded.
Metaphorically speaking, they will eat the vegetables if you put them on the plate, but if that’s all you give them and keep telling them to eat them, well…

It’s so easy to order takeaway these days.

I admit, I'm not always great at judging this kind of stuff, and where exactly things cross those lines.

 

[bdub76]

This pisses me off so much, it's fucking 2026, there is no way that having a show having a black, gay lead should be considered "edgy" or controversial. Black people exist, and gay people exist, and sometime people are both of these things, there is no way acknowledging this fact should be any kind of a problem.

I still think this is a function of being on Disney+. I expect it would have gone over better on HBO MAX. Disney was already experiencing a DEI backlash before Ncuti's Doctor even aired.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I still think this is a function of being on Disney+. I expect it would have gone over better on HBO MAX. Disney was already experiencing a DEI backlash before Ncuti's Doctor even aired.

Everyone was suffering "DEI backlash".

 

[jaime]

Oh, I thought you supported that kind of attitude. I guess I owe you an apology.

Was the difference in the acceptance the stories themselves, or just the different attitudes of the times where they aired. It just feels like we've really gone backwards in the last decade or so, and I think that probably has more to do with it than anything else.
It also seemed at times like Jack and his sexuality was a little more over the top, and at times almost a joke, and I think sometimes people who would not usually accept a character like Jack when they're presented that way.
From what I remember of it, Rogue took a much more straightforward approach to the title character, and the Doctor and their relationship.

To be fair though, the only episode that really dealt with Fifteen's blackness was The Story & The Engine, which was written buy the Nigerian born Inua Ellams, and I believe it was one of the best received episodes of his entire run.

I admit, I'm not always great at judging this kind of stuff, and where exactly things cross those lines.

Yeah, there does seem to be this thing where ‘if not liking thing then enemy, and enemy always bad bigot man’ which people seem to suffer from.
Thanks for realising. Some people haven’t clocked on yet.

As to Rogue, well, there’s straightforward and then there’s straightforward with a whole other kind of time warp. It’s just a step to the left…
Tbh if there’s a cottaging joke to be had in Who, it’s probably best it doesn’t involve the Doctor.
And for a fandom that already has a fairly large group that don’t like any Romance for the Doctor, well, having what might very euphemistically be called a whirlwind romance was never going to land well anyway.
The reason why literally no Doctor prior had an outright Romance (remember, Ten can’t say anything to Rose at the end of Doomsday, and even the River Romance not only contains a wonderful speech on why humans can never be in love with the Doctor but also is inherently a relationship where both participants have no choice but to go through the motions of it on some level) before is because of this. Moffat in particular spends seasons slowly moving the Doctor back away from all that. And Chibnall of course barely has the Doctor engage with that, except to give fandom the smallest of bones after realising it was part of the appeal for some people.
Hip wiggling to Kylie is not subtle character drama.

I love the Story and the Engine, it’s a great parable for Omega and his history with the Time Lords. I like to think intentionally so.
It was very clumsy and kind of insulting I think to be crowing ‘hey look! Here’s our episode and it has no white people in!’ and I think it would have been so much more powerful if we knew it was say the Capaldi Doctor that put the fires out. I also think it would have been ten times cleverer to have Peter Davison instead of Jo Martin for the Anansi’s daughter reveal too.
Belinda of course is not of African descent, so it also splits the world into a binary that simply doesn’t exist, and I always believe thinking that way is a mistake the creates a lot of nastiness, these days in particular.

On a more fundamental level, it’s also kind of insulting to some of us in modern Britain to have that kind of weird segregationist talk at the beginning. Not to mention West Africa is not a nice place for Gay Men.
Then you have the bit where, having built these people up to be like a new Brigadier and Unit in terms of their friendship with the Doctor, within ten minutes they’re throwing him under the bus for their own self interest.
Probably something that may have worked better in the all human play it was based on.

In a way that brings me around to agreeing with you that I too think we have maybe gone backwards in many ways over the last twenty years ago, though I doubt many people will be comfortable with realising that or answering the uncomfortable question of why and how it happened. Because it’s almost certainly not as clear cut as some would like.

Better we just eat our greens.

And it doesn’t explain all of why there’s been such a rejection of recent Who. It’s not the audience who are wrong, essentially.

 

[bdub76]

And it doesn’t explain all of why there’s been such a rejection of recent Who. It’s not the audience who are wrong, essentially.

This is going to sound very odd, but there are a lot of other science fiction programs on AppleTV. And these come with far less baggage.

 

[jaime]

This is going to sound very odd, but there are a lot of other science fiction programs on AppleTV. And these come with far less baggage.

For All Mankind is excellent. Enterprise done really well.
I dipped out of Foundation, but Enoch is the son of the original Doctor Who Companion actor William Russell.

But Doctor Who is something a bit different to other SF shows. Especially in Britain. It’s sort of a part of the cultural fabric.
If there are no Doctor Who stories being written or told, and Coronation Street has gone off the air, and no one can tune into the Archers anymore, then it probably means the country has ceased to exist.
I would throw Eastenders in, but I actively dislike that more than Corrie.

It’s like the Ravens leaving the Tower of London.

But if you mean audiences can go elsewhere for their SF fix then yes. There have always been other options that come and go. Star Trek got its start in the UK by essentially covering for Doctor Who while it was off between Troughton and Pertwee. Probably why there’s such a crossover in fans.

Most people tell time on their phones now, but Rolex is still on business

 

[Australis]

For All Mankind is excellent. Enterprise done really well.

Eh, it started well but to me it turned into a bit of a soap opera instead of a space opera, and I tuned out when they were on their way to Mars.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Only quasi related, and I don’t think it’s why no bugger was watching anymore (Blame Corrie being on the other side) but I think Season 26 of Who may actually be the only one I can think of with Queer subtext in every single story.
(And no, I don’t count camp or all the homoerotic stuff that creeps in from season 18 onwards, some of which is ocassionally a bit creepy)

All of NuWho, even the bits I like, wishes it was as consistent as Season 26.

The last two years alone have been managing to fail at even being Battlefield, despite their money and production quality surpassing it.

This is how Battle Field failed.... THAT'S JEAN MARSH!!!!

Nicholas Courtney and Jean Marsh were both Space Security Agents in the swinging sixties.

Battle Field should have been The Dalek Master Plan Too.

 

[jaime]

Eh, it started well but to me it turned into a bit of a soap opera instead of a space opera, and I tuned out when they were on their way to Mars.

I have to admit I found it harder going around that time too. And have yet to watch the most recent series. But am hoping it was more a wobble in holding my interest.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have to admit I found it harder going around that time too. And have yet to watch the most recent series. But am hoping it was more a wobble in holding my interest.

It's not that bad.

The real problem is that people forgot that it existed for the untold cold decades between seasons.

 

[jaime]

It's not that bad.

The real problem is that people forgot that it existed for the untold cold decades between seasons.

I both think they kept some characters and plot lines too long, but don’t want to see the back of many more. I like the alt history because it’s interesting, but the more it diverges the less that holds — whilst accepting it would need to radically diverge.
So I am typical audience member.
Don’t know what I want.

My main reasons for not getting to it yet is that it’s not a relaxing watch, and the new season drop when I really really needed to chill out for health reasons.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And now for some actual news (okay, not really, but still better than what we've been banging our heads with): Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Meyers told Awards Radar that they had discussions with Davies about doing a Doctor Who/Strange New Worlds crossover:

Ayla Ruby: That’s wonderful. I know we’re getting pretty close on time, but so I have one probably Easter egg question and then I’m going to throw the floor to you guys, I guess. So, I have to ask about Dr. Who and Pelia and I don’t know if you can answer it, but-​

​

Akiva Goldsman: We have no idea what might you be referring to.​

​

Ayla Ruby: So, there’s a TARDIS in the Farragut episode and then she drops this line that she knew a time traveling doctor. Can you tell me anything about that?​

​

Henry Alonso Myers: Long history. She’s done many things. She’s had many adventures. Carol has had many adventures and has a long history, and so I think it probably speaks to that as well.​

​

Akiva Goldsman: We were trying with Russell to do a crossover. We were for years. Again, these are the near misses, but we got not unclose and we had some really cool conversations about it. And so, certainly in our view, I mean, Pelia traveled in the TARDIS. Why not?​

 

[jaime]

And now for some actual news front (okay, not really, but still better than what we've been banging our heads with): Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Meyers told Awards Radar that they had discussions with Davies about doing a Doctor Who/Strange New Worlds crossover:

Ayla Ruby: That’s wonderful. I know we’re getting pretty close on time, but so I have one probably Easter egg question and then I’m going to throw the floor to you guys, I guess. So, I have to ask about Dr. Who and Pelia and I don’t know if you can answer it, but-​

​

Akiva Goldsman: We have no idea what might you be referring to.​

​

Ayla Ruby: So, there’s a TARDIS in the Farragut episode and then she drops this line that she knew a time traveling doctor. Can you tell me anything about that?​

​

Henry Alonso Myers: Long history. She’s done many things. She’s had many adventures. Carol has had many adventures and has a long history, and so I think it probably speaks to that as well.​

​

Akiva Goldsman: We were trying with Russell to do a crossover. We were for years. Again, these are the near misses, but we got not unclose and we had some really cool conversations about it. And so, certainly in our view, I mean, Pelia traveled in the TARDIS. Why not?​

I am quite fond of rum raisin ice cream.
I am also fond of large Roast Dinners.

I do not want one mixed within the other.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

And now for some actual news front (okay, not really, but still better than what we've been banging our heads with): Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Meyers told Awards Radar that they had discussions with Davies about doing a Doctor Who/Strange New Worlds crossover:

Akiva Goldsman: We were trying with Russell to do a crossover. We were for years. Again, these are the near misses, but we got not unclose and we had some really cool conversations about it. And so, certainly in our view, I mean, Pelia traveled in the TARDIS. Why not?​

Were I ever in position to write War and Peace and Time -- it was a spec proposal I was working on for the Doctor Who Classics novel range, about several Doctors' adventures during the events of Tolstoy's War and Peace -- there would 100% be a very thinly disguised Pelia in the book.

I would absolutely take a Doctor Who/SNW crossover novel.