News Season 2 will be the last (show cancelled)

[Ray Hardgrit]

Define "damage"

For me the biggest damage that the Kurtzman era has done to Star Trek is to its nature as a fictional universe I can buy into.

From the start you've got the Klingons looking entirely different.
The mushroom drive.
All the trashy storytelling around Burnham's mothers being the evil emperor of the universe and the time travelling saviour of reality.
Everyone pulling out guns and beheading people in Picard.
The infinite turbolift dimension, flamethrowers on the bridge, and the cry that blew up all the dilithium.
Giant whale tanks with sentient whales, apparently from Earth, helping with navigation.
People singing tunes on the fly to music that comes out of nowhere.
Pike is a puppet.
People turning into vulcans and their hair magically transforming into different styles.
Section 31.

And fucking so on. It's no bloody surprise that the most successful series creatively is the cartoon sitcom you're not supposed to take seriously, because this kind of stuff actually fits there. And even they had the sense not to do most of it.

As the kind of viewer that's into the drama and the lore and wants to take it all seriously, it's been a pretty disappointing run.

 

[Firebird]

From the start you've got the Klingons looking entirely different.

So, The Motion Picture.

The infinite turbolift dimension

So, The Final Frontier.

Giant whale tanks with sentient whales, apparently from Earth, helping with navigation.

So, the Next Generation.

Section 31.

So, Deep Space Nine and Enterprise.

 

[The Salt Umpire]

For me the biggest damage that the Kurtzman era has done to Star Trek is to its nature as a fictional universe I can buy into.

From the start you've got the Klingons looking entirely different.
The mushroom drive.
All the trashy storytelling around Burnham's mothers being the evil emperor of the universe and the time travelling saviour of reality.
Everyone pulling out guns and beheading people in Picard.
The infinite turbolift dimension, flamethrowers on the bridge, and the cry that blew up all the dilithium.
Giant whale tanks with sentient whales, apparently from Earth, helping with navigation.
People singing tunes on the fly to music that comes out of nowhere.
Pike is a puppet.
People turning into vulcans and their hair magically transforming into different styles.
Section 31.

And fucking so on. It's no bloody surprise that the most successful series creatively is the cartoon sitcom you're not supposed to take seriously, because this kind of stuff actually fits there. And even they had the sense not to do most of it.

As the kind of viewer that's into the drama and the lore and wants to take it all seriously, it's been a pretty disappointing run.

The only Kurtzman shows I've enjoyed and would or am rewatching are LD & SNW. I tried to enjoy SA. I tried to enjoy DIS. PRO was okay, but not for me. Enjoyment didn't happen.

I turned away rather than slog thru season after season hoping they'd get better. Why do that when other shows did entertain me from the start like The Orville or Breaking Bad?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

So, The Motion Picture.

... got away with it because it was after 79 episodes not hundreds with Klingons as main cast members.

So, The Final Frontier.

Yes that movie is dumb and bad.

So, the Next Generation.

Throwaway line most people didn't hear and no one knows what it means.

So, Deep Space Nine and Enterprise.

... were pushing their luck, but I was mostly talking about the movie in this case.

 

[Firebird]

... got away with it because it was after 79 episodes not hundreds with Klingons as main cast members.


Yes that movie is dumb and bad.


Throwaway line most people didn't hear and no one knows what it means.


... were pushing their luck, but I was mostly talking about the movie in this case.

Ah, so another double standard, as I suspected.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, so another double standard, as I suspected.

Again, it's Star Trek. I can't define the standard but will apply it all over things that are not personally liked.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Ah, so another double standard, as I suspected.

Maybe it is a bit of a double standard that I'm not bothered by something that happened years before I was born, but the Klingon change in TMP happened after a handful of appearances, before the Klingons had really been established. Before it had even properly been established that TOS was still part of the canon. And they even explained it afterwards in an Enterprise two-parter!

I'd be more bothered by that one-off line in TNG if I knew what it meant.

I said that Final Frontier numbering the floors wrong was bad, and I said that Discovery having a massive turbolift city inside it was also bad. So no double standard there. Though perhaps a bit of a difference in scale!

And DS9 and Enterprise didn't portray Section 31 as hard men who were doing a necessary job to save the naive Federation from the real threats their morality and rules wouldn't allow them to deal with. Oh sure, that was the image they wanted to have, but the actual protagonists felt differently.

 

[BillJ]

…and the cry that blew up all the dilithium.

I’m going to be honest, I’m currently watching Discovery season three because I’m really curious how this actually played out.

Kevin Uxbridge killed all Husnock everywhere over the death of his wife in “The Survivors”

I can’t speak for the Burn, but some of the ideas presented in CBS Trek are interesting, the live-action shows usually trip over their own feet in the execution.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I’m going to be honest, I’m currently watching Discovery season three because I’m really curious how this actually played out.

I think it may help your appreciation of the arc that it the resolution won't be a surprise to you. There's no danger of you getting to the reveal, yelling WHAT? at the screen, and getting taken out of the story.

 

[BillJ]

I think it may help your appreciation of the arc that it the resolution won't be a surprise to you. There's no danger of you getting to the reveal, yelling WHAT? at the screen, and getting taken out of the story.

Sure there is, like I mentioned, execution of ideas isn’t one of live-action CBS Trek’s strong suits.

The idea, in and of itself, is an interesting one and I don’t think is out of place in the Trek universe.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

I think I would have liked to have seen more of Melle (metaphorically of course ), but agreed about Fuzz and Zeph.

I'd have liked to have seen more of Zeph. A lot more.

 

[Farscape One]

So, The Motion Picture.

So, The Final Frontier.

So, the Next Generation.

So, Deep Space Nine and Enterprise.

Regarding TMP: as has been stated, far less appearances and being less of a presence in the franchise. Not quite the level of difference in presence as the Trill for their single TNG appearance to DS9 and later shows, but similar idea.


Regarding TFF: that was a bad scene, and I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise. But in the first place, it was fairly quick and wasn't made as a major, lengthy scene... unlike DISCO, which went WAY longer than TFF's turbolift scene. Second, the scale of difference between those is really apples and oranges... showing too many numbers, in reverse normal sequence, going in a single direction is far different than the literal rollercoaster we got in DISCO. Scale is a huge factor in this case.


Regarding TNG: first, we never saw Cetacean Ops. Second, it was a throwaway line over the intercom of an altered timeline. Frankly, the first time I even heard that line was on a third or fourth rewatch of the episode, and that's with the closed captions on. Easily missed thing.


Regarding Section 31: DS9 and ENT understood and portrayed that group far better than the Kurtzman era. They stayed in the shadows and did their utmost to not even be known, which makes their ability to perform their charter mission easier to carry out. They didn't have a fleet of ships and their own badges that everyone knew about. These guys were not the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar... those were open and in the field. They weren't secret organizations. Kurtzman era forgot Section 31 was supposed to be a SECRET organization.

 

[Michael]

Classic Star Trek has stupid shit and modern Star Trek has stupid shit. I don’t see what the big deal is about, to be honest. The argument seems to be that modern Trek has more stupid shit than classic Trek, but certainly that lies in the eye of the beholder. I find it ridiculous to argue that the stupid shit in modern Trek is somehow stupider and not only that, but that it somehow actually did “damage” to the franchise.

As ever, Trek shows are hit or miss and any given viewer will either think a production clicks for them or not. But I don’t see anything in modern Trek that either made it incompatible with previous Trek or was significantly more ridiculous or less intelligent than what came before it. Once in a while a Trek production comes along that tries something new or feels different, certainly, but I have yet to see one where I feel it doesn’t mesh with what came before.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Classic Star Trek has stupid shit and modern Star Trek has stupid shit. I don’t see what the big deal is about, to be honest. The argument seems to be that modern Trek has more stupid shit than classic Trek, but certainly that lies in the eye of the beholder. I find it ridiculous to argue that the stupid shit in modern Trek is somehow stupider and not only that, but that it somehow actually did “damage” to the franchise.

I'm going to keep on arguing that though, because I've already quit Strange New Worlds over it, and I don't personally know a single person who has continued watching any Star Trek show. I just finished rewatching all the classic shows with my brother, who was also watching Lower Decks and Picard, but he dropped out of Discovery when he was spoiled on what the Burn was caused by. This does actually matter!

 

[fireproof78]

For me, the stupid shit of old Trek is higher up for me than newer stupid Trek shit.

 

[Michael]

This does actually matter!

I realize it does to you (and your brother, I suppose) and I certainly won’t try to stop you, but in the grand scheme of Trek shows I don’t really think it does. I absolutely couldn’t stand large parts of Discovery and Picard, and yet I wouldn’t dream to argue my finding those shows dreadful was anything that mattered to anyone else but me.

 

[fireproof78]

I realize it does to you (and your brother, I suppose) and I certainly won’t try to stop you, but in the grand scheme of Trek shows I don’t really think it does. I absolutely couldn’t stand large parts of Discovery and Picard, and yet I wouldn’t dream to argue my finding those shows dreadful was anything that mattered to anyone else but me.

I don't think it matters either. It's like comics.

 

[Firebird]

OMG, @Michael - I absolutely adore the new avatar!

 

[Firebird]

I'm going to keep on arguing that though, because I've already quit Strange New Worlds over it, and I don't personally know a single person who has continued watching any Star Trek show.

If you've quit watching SNW, then move on. You're not going to get any converts by continuously whinging about these subjective slights that don't line up with your personal point of view.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

I'm going to keep on arguing that though, because I've already quit Strange New Worlds over it, and I don't personally know a single person who has continued watching any Star Trek show. I just finished rewatching all the classic shows with my brother, who was also watching Lower Decks and Picard, but he dropped out of Discovery when he was spoiled on what the Burn was caused by. This does actually matter!

To what end? You aren't going to get people to stop watching the shows they enjoy and flying a banner of "hearing about vague concepts without actually watching something for yourself is enough" is not a good look. It makes any argument you could try and make completely baseless because you simply don't know what you're talking about hinging your entire sense of purpose on singular second hand sentences. There are ways you could put off potential viewers from the classic shows in entirely the same way.

You can talk about how great the shows you like are without talking about how bad you think something you haven't seen or hasn't even come out is.