If you strictly view entertainment through this lens, you might wanna argue Doctor Who hasn't been a very successful venture since the early days of Capaldi, over a decade ago. In which case, why bother watching anyway.
Spoilers Russell T. Davies' Second Turn as Doctor Who Showrunner
I'm giving the next showrunner one season and then I'm out. Unless their first two episodes are as bad as Space Babies and the Devil's Chord (and The Church on Ruby Road), then I'm quitting earlier.
I've been on the verge of quitting this series so many times, with the Moon being an egg, the Timeless Child, and everything going on in RTD2, and I'm just going to have to force myself to commit to it this time. It's bloody difficult to walk away from something you've seen 800 episodes of, but right now all the series does is frustrate me.
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I remember being furious (weird) at that episode. But now I look back at 12s run as my favorite of nuWho. (And then I discover other eras are ALSO my favorite run of nuWho.)
Honestly they could have only given me Silence in the Library / Forrest of the Dead and I would have been happy. But then I also got The Many Husbands of River Song.
The Doctor Falls is unbeatable. Moffat is a mad genius.
Yeah, I remember liking the episode myself back then, and being baffled at the response. Haven't changed my mind since, although I do get the viewpoint of those disliking it and respect it.
I largely blocked out the episode from my mind but I just pulled up the review thread to refresh my memory about why I hated it so much (beyond just "horrible science, horrible history") and Venardhi's post summed it up perfectly.
Capaldi is when my wife stopped Doctor Who with me.
Doctor Who hasn't been firing on all cylinders for a long time. That's why I'm thinking it's pretty much canceled at least for the short term.
You can think whatever you want; reality will still contradict you.
I'm waiting for a new Doctor announcement and air dates to contradict me.
Those things don't need to happen to contradict you because the BBC, Bad Wolf, and RTD already have contradicted you with the repeated and explicit declarations that the programme will continue to be produced and the very recent comment that specific news is coming shortly.
There's a lot in series 8 that makes me WTF hard. I've always had an issue with the ephemeralness of Moffat's tenure; the stories make sense in the moment, but when you stop to process the story it falls apart. (Which is why watching it with commercial breaks on BBC America really hurt it; the commercial breaks gave one time to think about the episode as it happens.) I think series 8 is Moffat's most Brannon Braga-esque series, imho, where he goes hard for the high-concept weird shit at the expense of sanity. "Kill the Moon" and "In the Forest of the Night" are the two key moments where the weird shit overwhelms sanity itself, though "Dark Water/Death in Heaven" is right up there as well. I recognize that Moffat's era is more magic realism with the sheen of science fiction than science fiction itself, but that doesn't absolve it of not working through the implications of its own storytelling.
I dunno, I loved Capaldi's tenure, especially on rewatch (totally disagree with Allyn's take, especially on the Braga comparison, and for numerous reasons too), and I truly enjoyed the Gatwa era...but I did almost stop watching Who altogether after The Timeless Children. It felt like that episode was a personal insult to me, and I don't enjoy that feeling. Luckily I entered a year-long marathon of Who during COVID, which went a long way to rehabilitate my love for the show, but that was a low ebb, and generarlly, I hated the Chibnall era in a way I never have any other (although, truth be told, the Saward is a close second - the true nadir of OldWho, IMO) and if I ever was gonna jump off, it'd have been then.
As a Moffat fan who thinks Series 5 and 6 contain some of the best modern-era episodes, I agree completely. I had a lot of issues with Capaldi's first series and you cover some of the overall issues. I especially agree on the four episodes you mentioned, episodes I'll never watch again.
I would add everything with Danny Pink, from the antagonistic relationship between him and The Doctor (both are at fault) to the expectation I should care about his death. The only time I liked him is when he was just a dream in "Last Christmas."
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Danny Pink is a strange element, and I like Samuel Anderson's performance a lot...
But Danny Pink is not a Doctor Who character and Series 8 cannot do justice to his story.
I know I'm repeating myself here. Danny feels like a character from a series BBC drama about a school teacher with PTSD from the Afghanistan War who wandered onto the Doctor Who set and never broke character. That's interesting, but Doctor Who doesn't have the space to develop it, and Danny's apparent antagonism is a function of the lack of space; he's an antagonist because narratively he's trying to keep our protagonists apart, even though he's justified in feeling that he's sharing his girlfriend with this weirdo, his girlfriend gives him myriad reasons why he shouldn't trust her, and the show doesn't have the room to explore that dynamic.
Rewatching Series 8 a few years ago, I liked Danny a lot more, and I would love a Big Finish box set that retells Series 8 from his POV. (Though I also don't trust Big Finish to do his story justice. They would throw in Daleks or some shit.) I'm not sure Clara loved Danny, and her treatment of Danny paints her in a poor light.
But Danny Pink is not a Doctor Who character and Series 8 cannot do justice to his story.
I know I'm repeating myself here. Danny feels like a character from a series BBC drama about a school teacher with PTSD from the Afghanistan War who wandered onto the Doctor Who set and never broke character. That's interesting, but Doctor Who doesn't have the space to develop it, and Danny's apparent antagonism is a function of the lack of space; he's an antagonist because narratively he's trying to keep our protagonists apart, even though he's justified in feeling that he's sharing his girlfriend with this weirdo, his girlfriend gives him myriad reasons why he shouldn't trust her, and the show doesn't have the room to explore that dynamic.
Rewatching Series 8 a few years ago, I liked Danny a lot more, and I would love a Big Finish box set that retells Series 8 from his POV. (Though I also don't trust Big Finish to do his story justice. They would throw in Daleks or some shit.) I'm not sure Clara loved Danny, and her treatment of Danny paints her in a poor light.
Pretty much agree except perhaps I'm a little more optimistic about the BBC working with a different streamer. I think with Disney it wasn't realistic thinking they'd pay so much for an IP that they don't own. Particularly in these days where most streamers have burned through so much money already to create content.
But they might be able to find a different streamer willing to work with them, probably paying less to do so!
100% agree. And the almost racist way the Doctor interacted with Danny also didn't make sense in addition to everything you mentioned.
(I know, we're talking about Moffat here.) I like Danny. I like the mirror he held up to Clara. (The Doctor is NOT a good influence on her and he sees it.)
I HATE this "The Doctor can't stand soldiers" crap. ESPECIALLY since the season ended with The Brigadier of all things!
Interesting that you took that as race. It was entirely about class. He wasn't too dumb to teach maths because of his race. It was because he was a soldier.
But seasons 9 and 10 were incandescent.
I HATE this "The Doctor can't stand soldiers" crap. ESPECIALLY since the season ended with The Brigadier of all things!
Interesting that you took that as race. It was entirely about class. He wasn't too dumb to teach maths because of his race. It was because he was a soldier.
But seasons 9 and 10 were incandescent.
Maybe it plays different here in the U.S. or maybe it's just me. But when the Doctor couldn't believe he was a math teacher and had to be PE, um, that's what came to my mind. Perhaps it was meant as class. I just know that I didn't like it.
I'm in the U.S. and it was totally "You're a grunt and dumb as a box of rocks."
The flip side of it was that I did enjoy Danny's perception of The Doctor as a General. At the end when Danny is a cyberman and knows he has the answer and what it will cost him and he has a line like "Now watch what happens next" to Clara. Then he gives the Doctor the answer and The Doctor flips. And The Doctor KNOWS that he flips. Oh, I get chills. Almost worth it.
Oh, and Missy's scene with Osgood is one of the best Master scenes ever. Yikes.
Sorry, RTD, this is what you were up against when you came back. (See? Back on topic!)
Well the show has hit a new low on ratings these past few years. Ratings are still important for advertising, streaming subscriptions etc. Basically they need to make money because the shows cost money to make. Im guessing theyll either reboot the franchise which is in itself risky or theyll look to the seasons that were more successful and bring on a new creative that can give the fans what they want to watch.
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