News Season 2 will be the last (show cancelled)

[cooleddie74]

Cochrane: "IS THAT EARTH?!?"
Geordi: "Yep!"
Cochrane: "It's so SMALL."
Riker: "It's about to get a WHOLE LOT bigger."

And that's the message of FC in a nutshell. Things may suck at a given moment, but they're destined to improve, and sooner than some might think.

 

[Farscape One]

Of course. Optimism comes from our understanding of the universe changing. For the optimism to be worthwhile there has to be some kind of struggle to obtain it. Which is what TOS still ended up doing better than any other series/movie to date.

DS9 also showed the struggle for optimism was worthwhile. Look at how the Section 31 disease ended up helping end the war, for instance.

 

[BillJ]

DS9 also showed the struggle for optimism was worthwhile. Look at how the Section 31 disease ended up helping end the war, for instance.

Eh, I like DS9 (my youngest son is named Benjamin), but I've never been sure optimistic is something that I would apply to the totality or even the majority of it. DS9 was more morally ambivalent than any other Trek series.

Plus, I wouldn't apply optimistic to a war won with biological warfare. If you only win by abandoning your values, what have you really won?

 

[Farscape One]

Eh, I like DS9 (my youngest son is named Benjamin), but I've never been sure optimistic is something that I would apply to the totality or even the majority of it. DS9 was more morally ambivalent that any other Trek series.

Plus, I wouldn't apply optimistic to a war won with biological warfare. If you only win by abandoning your values, what have you really won?

Everyone there is doing the best they can with the circumstances they are given. Optimism is also being able to move forward despite massive failures or setbacks.

Take Quark after Brunt revoked his Ferengi business license. He was able to move forward, after an excellent scene of the DS9 community coming in to help him.

Or Bajor: moving forward after a half century of a brutal occupation.

Sisko: moving past years of grief at losing his wife and being able to live in the present and move on with his life. And also simply a man and a father doing the best he can to raise his son alone and protect him and the Federation as a Starfleet officer.


There's a lot of struggle in DS9, yes... but there's a lot of hope for the better, too. It was well balanced.

 

[BillJ]

There's a lot of struggle in DS9, yes... but there's a lot of hope for the better, too. It was well balanced.

When the rubber hit the road, they easily abandoned their values. Which circles back to my original question: if you have to abandon your values, what have you really won?

Or Bajor: moving forward after a half century of a brutal occupation.

They may have fixed their planet, but I'm not sure Bajor ever moved forward from it. It is a fixture of dysfunction across all seven seasons of the show.

I see DS9 as a show of moral ambivalence. Which is what made it interesting in its own right and different from what came before or since.

 

[Borgminister]

I see DS9 as a show of moral ambivalence.

"I CAN... live with it..."

 

[Farscape One]

When the rubber hit the road, they easily abandoned their values. Which circles back to my original question: if you have to abandon your values, what have you really won?



They may have fixed their planet, but I'm not sure Bajor ever moved forward from it. It is a fixture of dysfunction across all seven seasons of the show.

I see DS9 as a show of moral ambivalence. Which is what made it interesting in its own right and different from what came before or since.

I definitely would not say values were easily abandoned. I would say values and outcomes were more realistically portrayed.

Especially compared to TNG.

 

[fireproof78]

FIRST CONTACT - the optimism in us aiming for better despite ourselves. Like when Cochrane first saw Earth from space. He now started to change his mind about doing the flight just for money and about doing it for humanity.

THE WRATH OF KHAN - the optimism in facing death with integrity and honor. The optimism of being able to move on from feeling old to feeling younger.

"The Best of Both Worlds" - the optimism in individuality triumphing over a collective.

Correct but they comes at the end. The optimism is through the ending despite the losses. It doesn't feel very optimistic as the story progresses.

 

[Ragitsu]

Section 31 is straight-up garbage; there is nothing optimistic about the status quo in space.

 

[BillJ]

Correct but they comes at the end. The optimism is through the ending despite the losses. It doesn't feel very optimistic as the story progresses.

I mean, they are dramas. There has to be something there for the first forty minutes for the audience to watch.

 

[The Wormhole]

Trek has proven that the action aspect sells more. What's optimistic in TWOK or First Contact? Yet those are considered high points. What's optimistic in Best of Both Worlds ? Yet it is one the highest rated episodes.

Star Trek can do optimistic very well (Kelvin films show that) but history tells a different story around what sells.

For all that people like to claim they prefer Star Trek to be optimistic and about exploration, one of TNG's top fan favorite episodes is the one set in an alternate grimdark timeline where the Federation is fighting a losing war and the Enterprise actually is a warship.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

For all that people like to claim they prefer Star Trek to be optimistic and about exploration, one of TNG's top fan favorite episodes is the one set in an alternate grimdark timeline where the Federation is fighting a losing war and the Enterprise actually is a warship.

It's pretty common for fan favourite episodes to break format and do something unusual. City on the Edge of Forever is set in the 30s and has a tragic ending, Trouble with Tribbles is an outright comedy, The Inner Light is about Picard raising a family and growing old, Far Beyond the Stars is about a writer facing racism in the 50s etc.

Part of the reason they work so well because that the series have a comfortable normality for them to be a break from. Yesterday's Enterprise gets to have fun in its grimdark world with Picard shouting at Riker, and then everything's fine again at the end.

 

[fireproof78]

"I CAN... live with it..."

But he couldn't.

I mean, they are dramas. There has to be something there for the first forty minutes for the audience to watch.

This is true. But I'm more struck by how optimism is expected from the get go when it usually shows up towards the end.

For all that people like to claim they prefer Star Trek to be optimistic and about exploration, one of TNG's top fan favorite episodes is the one set in an alternate grimdark timeline where the Federation is fighting a losing war and the Enterprise actually is a warship.

It's very strange to me.

 

[BillJ]

This is true. But I'm more struck by how optimism is expected from the get go when it usually shows up towards the end.

I just expect to be entertained. Everything else is a bonus.

 

[cooleddie74]

As long as it contains optimism by the end of the story I don't care how little exists in the first two acts. Just end on at least the glimmer of a hopeful note and you've accomplished an important milestone when it comes me thoroughly enjoying your film or episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It wasn't even an entire four years between "TATV...." and the first Abrams movie. May 13, 2005 to May 8, 2009. And that's just the official release date for the 2009 film. Production began even earlier. Trek dies occasional "deaths, " but they don't last long.

They couldn't start any thing new until after Rick Berman's contract lapsed, or he'd get a creator credit and a huge slice of the pie.

They would have waited another ten years to deprive that man from collecting an undeserved quarter.

 

[fireproof78]

It's pretty common for fan favourite episodes to break format and do something unusual. City on the Edge of Forever is set in the 30s and has a tragic ending, Trouble with Tribbles is an outright comedy, The Inner Light is about Picard raising a family and growing old, Far Beyond the Stars is about a writer facing racism in the 50s etc.

Part of the reason they work so well because that the series have a comfortable normality for them to be a break from. Yesterday's Enterprise gets to have fun in its grimdark world with Picard shouting at Riker, and then everything's fine again at the end.

Sooo...in order to be engaging in commentary and challenge the audience we have to be familiar and comfortable first?

 

[Detached Nacelle]

Part of the reason they work so well because that the series have a comfortable normality for them to be a break from. Yesterday's Enterprise gets to have fun in its grimdark world with Picard shouting at Riker, and then everything's fine again at the end.

If I'm misinterpreting do let me know but this reads like any kind of swing or deviation is only okay if it returns to the status quo or outright hits the reset button. It seems a very narrow viewpoint and stifling to its future. It's also quite extreme to be pissed off by musicals and puppets, it's okay to dislike an episode but crossing into gatekeeping territory is very different.

 

[Ragitsu]

AKA "having standards".

 

[Turtletrekker]

If I'm misinterpreting do let me know but this reads like any kind of swing or deviation is only okay if it returns to the status quo or outright hits the reset button. It seems a very narrow viewpoint and stifling to its future. It's also quite extreme to be pissed off by musicals and puppets, it's okay to dislike an episode but crossing into gatekeeping territory is very different.

Agreed. Any form of storytelling that doesn't change, evolve and grow just stagnates and dies. If you just want more of the same, then go back and rewatch the same that you already have. I'd rather see a swing and a miss than to never step up to the plate. And if the swing is a miss, I just shrug and move on, like I have with so many other bad, ill-conceived episodes of Star Trek in the past. It's just a TV show. Not worth getting pissed over.