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Poll Is Star Trek: Khan khanon?

Should Star Trek: Khan be considered khanon?


  • Total voters
    52
The current writing staffs on the current Trek shows might consider the Khan audio canon, but when they leave and new writers take over, they will be under no obligation to do so.

Which is always true of canon, even onscreen canon. ST V showed the Enterprise getting to the center of the galaxy in a matter of minutes (the dialogue said 6.7 hours, but there were about 20 minutes of continuous action with no room for a time jump), but DS9 and VGR ignored that and based their entire series concepts on the premise that any such journey would take decades (and TNG ignored it too in episodes like "The Price" and "The Nth Degree"). Those creators pretty much considered ST V apocryphal, but their successors on SNW acknowledged Sybok. Then there's VGR: "Threshold," an episode so infamous that its own writers declared it non-canonical -- but Lower Decks acknowledged it anyway. Different creators make different choices about what parts of a series's past to acknowledge or disregard.

I've said before, one of the biggest misconceptions about canon is that it's binding on the primary creators of the work. It's the other way around -- whatever the creators decide to establish is automatically the canon by definition, even if it changes or disregards earlier canon. Creators generally prefer to stay consistent with past continuity, yes, but nobody forces them to, because they're the ones making those decisions.
 
To answer the thread title question, for some reason it doesn’t quite feel like “canon” to me at the end of the day (which I realize is entirely beside the point, anyway). I couldn’t say exactly why; I liked it perfectly well, and I have nothing but respect for the authors involved. But then, I find that’s often my reaction to franchise-based audio dramas in general — maybe the structure of the medium itself makes it come across as not quite sharing the same (imagined) reality. It’s entirely subjective, though.

(EDIT: Then again, it’s not as though “I, Mudd” andThe Motion Picture feel like the same reality, either.)
 
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To answer the thread title question, for some reason it doesn’t quite feel like “canon” to me at the end of the day (which I realize is entirely beside the point, anyway). I couldn’t say exactly why; I liked it perfectly well, and I have nothing but respect for the authors involved. But then, I find that’s often my reaction to franchise-based audio dramas in general — maybe the structure of the medium itself makes it come across as not quite sharing the same (imagined) reality. It’s entirely subjective, though.

(EDIT: Then again, it’s not as though “I, Mudd” andThe Motion Picture feel like the same reality, either.)
Canon and reality are two separate things for a fictional universe .
 
See also Johnston McCully ignoring the ending of his original Zorro novel, in which Zorro revealed his secret identity to the world, married Lolita, retired from being Zorro and lived happily ever after -- because the Douglas Fairbanks movie had been a huge hit, turning Zorro into a cash cow.

No fool, McCulley ignored the happy ending to his previously standalone story and kept writing Zorro books for the rest of his life. :)

I happened across this post again today, so to offer a belated clarification:

I've read all four Zorro serial novels now, and in fact, they stay mostly consistent with the original novel. The second and third novels are directly driven by Don Diego's identity as Zorro being public knowledge; in the second, his enemy seeks revenge by abducting Lolita, and in the third, an impostor Zorro attacks people to ruin Diego's good name. There are only slight contradictions. The second novel resurrects the villain apparently killed in the first, but he was still twitching at the end of the first, so it's possible he survived. And the third assumes Zorro killed the villain who was actually killed by someone else in the second. But otherwise, they're consistent.

The fourth novel jumps forward a few years and claims that most people no longer believe Diego was Zorro, thanks to the family's disinformation campaign, and only the people in his inner circle still know the truth. Which is semi-plausible, except that Sgt. Gonzalez, who was a close ally of Zorro in novels 2-3, is reset to an antagonist who doesn't know Zorro's identity.

As for Lolita, she's abducted before the wedding in the second novel, then needs a few years back in Spain to recuperate before the third, as a contrivance to keep Diego single. He marries her after the third, but she's died by the fourth, so Zorro can have a new love interest. (A lot about the fourth novel rehashes the first.)

I haven't read any of the 58 short stories (there's a book series collecting everything, but none of my libraries has it), but from what I've read about them, they do contradict the novels and treat Zorro's identity as secret. I don't think they can take place before or during the first novel, since they feature supporting characters not introduced until the third novel.
 
We can't even figure out Khan's backstory. Is he Indian or now Canadian? What colour is his skin tone? What accent does he have? When were the Eugenics Wars?

It's less established details and more, oh we're doing this now? Okay.

So while "Space Seed" is canon Trek, is it in modern continuity which explicitly says events were moved to the 2020's? And what does that say about SNW with regards to TOS??

It's a mess. Whoever comes along next can do whatever and it'll make at least as much sense as it does now.
 
We can't even figure out Khan's backstory. Is he Indian or now Canadian? What colour is his skin tone? What accent does he have? When were the Eugenics Wars?
Indian-Canadian?
It's less established details and more, oh we're doing this now? Okay.

So while "Space Seed" is canon Trek, is it in modern continuity which explicitly says events were moved to the 2020's? And what does that say about SNW with regards to TOS??
Fixed point in history that has to happen prior to WW3 and doesn't really make any difference going forward. Kind of like what Annorax was saying with time having moods and wants but less anthropomorphised because he'd gone loopy.
It's a mess. Whoever comes along next can do whatever and it'll make at least as much sense as it does now.
True. Someone could come along and declare La'an became a temporal agent and during the temporal wars reset it back to the 90s if they wanted to. As it stands though being in the 1990s or 2020s seems to have no impact on history whatsoever.
 
We can't even figure out Khan's backstory. Is he Indian or now Canadian?

No reason he can't be both. For that matter, Sikhism is a religion that can have members of any ethnic group, and "Khan Noonien Singh" is an ethnic hodgepodge of a name to begin with, so his ethnicity was never all that clear. (Yes, Marla supposedly recognized him as a Sikh on sight, but he had none of the visual characteristics of a Sikh, as he was clean-shaven with relatively short hair. Khan's ethnicity has never made sense from the get-go.)


What colour is his skin tone? What accent does he have?

The Kelvin versions of Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty have different eye colors than their Prime counterparts (I'm not sure about the SNW actors' eye colors). Mark Lenard's Sarek had a mid-Atlantic accent, Ben Cross's an English accent, James Frain's an American accent (even though Frain is English). For that matter, all three versions of Scotty have different varieties of Scottish accent. These things can be taken as extradiegetic differences in actor interpretation, rather than in-universe differences. The Doylist/Roddenberrian approach: We're not seeing what actually happened, we're seeing a fictionalized recreation that employs artistic license.


So while "Space Seed" is canon Trek, is it in modern continuity which explicitly says events were moved to the 2020's? And what does that say about SNW with regards to TOS??

"Encounter at Farpoint" did it first. "Space Seed" explicitly said the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s were the last of Earth's world wars, yet "Farpoint" said the Third World War was in the mid-21st century, implicitly retconning out the Eugenics Wars altogether because it was 1987 and it made sense to push the speculation further into the future. They didn't start referencing the Eugenics Wars again until a decade later in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume," but mistakenly said the wars were only 200 years in the past (i.e. in the 22nd century), and later references in Enterprise were vague about the dates. So there's really nothing recent about the retcon.

All it says is that this is fiction and its creators are entitled to change their minds. Long-running continuities update themselves all the time, like Marvel Comics and its sliding timescale.
 
Very Short Treks, which was officially produced by CBS/Paramount, and shown on screen no less, is not canon, because the producers said it wasn’t. So unless the producers of Khan say it’s canon (which so far to my knowledge, they haven’t), then it’s not.
 
We can't even figure out Khan's backstory. Is he Indian or now Canadian? What colour is his skin tone? What accent does he have? When were the Eugenics Wars?

It's less established details and more, oh we're doing this now? Okay.

So while "Space Seed" is canon Trek, is it in modern continuity which explicitly says events were moved to the 2020's? And what does that say about SNW with regards to TOS??

It's a mess. Whoever comes along next can do whatever and it'll make at least as much sense as it does now.
Khan is a "genetic Superman" from the past who was once the dictator over a quarter of the planet. He escaped into space after being defeated and deposed. That is really all we need to know.
 
The Doylist/Roddenberrian approach: We're not seeing what actually happened, we're seeing a fictionalized recreation that employs artistic license.

Exactly. Run any photo through an AI clean-up process and the subjects in the photo sometimes don't even resemble the real people any more.

Filmed Star Trek might just be computer-generated entertainments based on ships' logs. Harder for audiences to imagine in the 60s, but somehow we coped with Saavik changing her hair, eyebrows, eye-colour and face in the 80s. TNG (and beyond) showed us that the holodeck could be pretty convincing when creating new characters and replicating famous ones. and the tech keeps getting better all the time.
 
Exactly. Run any photo through an AI clean-up process and the subjects in the photo sometimes don't even resemble the real people any more.

Filmed Star Trek might just be computer-generated entertainments based on ships' logs. Harder for audiences to imagine in the 60s, but somehow we coped with Saavik changing her hair, eyebrows, eye-colour and face in the 80s. TNG (and beyond) showed us that the holodeck could be pretty convincing when creating new characters and replicating famous ones. and the tech keeps getting better all the time.
We don't want AI generated Star Trek though!
 
We can't even figure out Khan's backstory. Is he Indian or now Canadian? What colour is his skin tone? What accent does he have? When were the Eugenics Wars?

It's less established details and more, oh we're doing this now? Okay.

So while "Space Seed" is canon Trek, is it in modern continuity which explicitly says events were moved to the 2020's? And what does that say about SNW with regards to TOS??

It's a mess. Whoever comes along next can do whatever and it'll make at least as much sense as it does now.
This is the one problem with them both wanting to continue to use the stuff established in the 1960s, but also still wanting to Trek to be our future. Retcons are pretty much inevitable when the franchise goes on this long.
 
So Kristen Beyer says it’s canon, but she isn’t in charge of making that decision. Only CBS/Paramount is. And to my knowledge, they have not said it’s canon.

You missed the part where Kirsten explicitly said "There is nobody who comes along and... waves a scepter and dubs a thing ‘canon.’" Canon is not an official studio-assigned label of any kind -- that's a myth. It's just a descriptive nickname we use to talk about fictional series. Whatever the writers of the original work create is what we refer to with the word "canon." It's those writers who decide which stories they want to acknowledge or ignore. The studio couldn't care less about in-story continuity as long as they make money, which is why there are so many series out there that have been rebooted by their owners or have had mutually contradictory installments (like quite a few long-running horror movie series, or the Highlander franchise).

So yes, as one of the writer-producers of the Star Trek franchise, Kirsten absolutely is one of the people in charge of making that decision -- currently. Of course, as the article says, that only applies to the position of the people currently making the shows. It won't necessarily be binding on future creators, though. When Jeri Taylor was the showrunner of Voyager, she treated her novels Mosaic and Pathways as canonical and incorporated elements from "Mosaic" into one or two episodes. The canonicity of those novels was trumpeted by StarTrek.com and other references at the time. But as soon as Taylor left the show, her successors started ignoring and contradicting character backstory details established in Pathways. Because canon is not some binding official policy, it's just a nickname for what the storytellers create, and the storytellers are the ones who decide the content of the stories they tell. What one showrunner considers canonical can be ignored by another. (Or vice-versa. Brannon Braga was so embarrassed by VGR: "Threshold" that he declared it non-canonical, but Lower Decks reestablished it as part of canon.)

Anyway, I still think it's likely to be a moot point, since it seems unlikely to me that any future project would have reason to reference anything from Khan. I mean, Strange New Worlds takes place before it, and Starfleet Academy is nearly a millennium after it. So it may never be either acknowledged or contradicted.

EDIT: Although it occurs to me that it could be significant in setting a precedent for future audio productions to be considered canonical, and those stories, if they happen (and I hope they do), might be more likely to have relevance to onscreen events. Although of course, I doubt any onscreen story would ever depend on information from an audio story, since the audience for those is bound to be much smaller. (Which means it's likely to be the kind of "beta canon" that can be freely ignored by primary canon, like the supposedly canonical Star Wars novels and comics that got contradicted by new screen content in both the old Expanded Universe and the current continuity. But of course, primary canon can ignore its own past too, and frequently does, which is why canon is basically meaningless anyway.)
 
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So Kristen Beyer says it’s canon, but she isn’t in charge of making that decision. Only CBS/Paramount is. And to my knowledge, they have not said it’s canon.
My co-writer is a Star Trek executive producer with a Star Trek series co-creator credit, and she discussed the matter at length with her superiors at Secret Hideout and CBS Studios. I’m willing to take her word for what’s canon.
 
My co-writer is a Star Trek executive producer with a Star Trek series co-creator credit, and she discussed the matter at length with her superiors at Secret Hideout and CBS Studios. I’m willing to take her word for what’s canon.

That’s fine. All I said was that CBS/Paramount has not made that statement.
 
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