I don't get it.

[Mrs Paris]

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

Even the strongest of will fall for the traps of temptation, dude. If we didn't, we would always do the right things all the time. Nobody would ever fight, do drugs or have sex out of wedlock but we all fall for one of these traps of temptation. It's part of being human, which was the point of Trek's "exploration". Nobody but nobody born innocent stays that way, we all sin and give into some type of act of temptation.

Besides, didn't you notice that she got free by boiling their blood? Sweet little innocent Kes tried to kill both men, yet didn't kill any Kazon that abused her before her power emerged. That doesn't seem odd to you?

besides, a character that is perfect, that never does anything wrong,that never succumbs to temptation that never has any moral delema over anything, that always knows the "right thing to do" in any situation, is a very dull character

 

[exodus]

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

Even the strongest of will fall for the traps of temptation, dude. If we didn't, we would always do the right things all the time. Nobody would ever fight, do drugs or have sex out of wedlock but we all fall for one of these traps of temptation. It's part of being human, which was the point of Trek's "exploration". Nobody but nobody born innocent stays that way, we all sin and give into some type of act of temptation.

Besides, didn't you notice that she got free by boiling their blood? Sweet little innocent Kes tried to kill both men, yet didn't kill any Kazon that abused her before her power emerged. That doesn't seem odd to you?

besides, a character that is perfect, that never does anything wrong,that never succumbs to temptation that never has any moral delema over anything, that always knows the "right thing to do" in any situation, is a very dull character

I don't know about dull, I'd say "unidentifible". Every character and some of their dilemmas we the viewer are supposed to find some trait or issue that contects us to them & their story. As Adults I think many of us have left our innocence behind and have said and/or done things out parents and/or peers may not have approved of.(whether they know what we've done or not) While Dark Kes maybe extreme, she is a study in how innocense is abandon as we grow into adulthood.

 

[Lynx]

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

Even the strongest of will fall for the traps of temptation, dude. If we didn't, we would always do the right things all the time. Nobody would ever fight, do drugs or have sex out of wedlock but we all fall for one of these traps of temptation. It's part of being human, which was the point of Trek's "exploration". Nobody but nobody born innocent stays that way, we all sin and give into some type of act of temptation.

Besides, didn't you notice that she got free by boiling their blood? Sweet little innocent Kes tried to kill both men, yet didn't kill any Kazon that abused her before her power emerged. That doesn't seem odd to you?

Well, temptation can be difficult to withstand but in this case, I do think that Kes was better suited than any other on that ship to withstand evil temptation. In fact, she did show in both "Cold Fire" and Warlord "that she could do that, didn't she?

She did get free by boiling their blood because that's the only way she could get free from them. It was in self defence. And she didn't kill anyone of them and I don't think she had any intention to kill them either.

She wasn't aware of her mental abilities when she was captured by the Kazon. They developed later, during her excercises with Tuvok and besides for the short period when she was temptated by Tanis she could clearly control them. As for the powers, she actually lost much of them when Tanis couldn't control her.

As for "dull", Kes was definitely not dull. Underused maybe but not dull. She had a lot of potential which was never used.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think part of the problem with "Fury" is that it was so matter of fact and seemed to come out of no where. This is obviously due to the long absence in between, but it really creates a disconnect between the character and the viewer.

The "power corrupts!" plot is pretty common in SF&F, but when the view can't actually watch the progression, it really takes away from the impact. And, when compared to someone like, say, Willow, Kes's power seems kind of arbitrary and not all that engaging.

 

[kimc]

Cold Fire was the introduction of the "dark side" that took over in Fury. It makes perfect sense and bring something interesting to an otherwise very dull character

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

I didn't care much for the episode "Fury" mainly because we didn't get to see what she went through to bring her to the point where she now hated the Voyager crew. The saving thing though is that once AGAIN Kes was able to fight down her darker impulses so the character exited the episode with her dignity intact.

For me Kes is a living battleground for good and evil and is an example of how both love and strength of will can save the day. Love her or hate her you can't take that away...

 

[Mrs Paris]

Cold Fire was the introduction of the "dark side" that took over in Fury. It makes perfect sense and bring something interesting to an otherwise very dull character

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

I didn't care much for the episode "Fury" mainly because we didn't get to see what she went through to bring her to the point where she now hated the Voyager crew. The saving thing though is that once AGAIN Kes was able to fight down her darker impulses so the character exited the episode with her dignity intact.

For me Kes is a living battleground for good and evil and is an example of how both love and strength of will can save the day. Love her or hate her you can't take that away...

That was another thing I liked about it, how she wanted to go back to her own people at the end

 

[Lynx]

Cold Fire was the introduction of the "dark side" that took over in Fury. It makes perfect sense and bring something interesting to an otherwise very dull character

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

I didn't care much for the episode "Fury" mainly because we didn't get to see what she went through to bring her to the point where she now hated the Voyager crew. The saving thing though is that once AGAIN Kes was able to fight down her darker impulses so the character exited the episode with her dignity intact.

For me Kes is a living battleground for good and evil and is an example of how both love and strength of will can save the day. Love her or hate her you can't take that away...

I agree with some of the things what you have written here but I must disagree with your comment about "the character exited with her dignity intact". I don't think she did.

Personally I find the "Kes" we saw at the end a pathetic creature to say the least, far from the brave explorer who she was in seasons 1-3. Where was the brave young Ocampa who left her world to learn and explore space? It was so out of character. That was not the real Kes!

It was like watching some end episode of TOS where Captain Kirk had turned into some alcoholic wreck who despised and denied his whole Starfleet careeer. I don't think that the TOS fans would have liked or accepted such a solution.

And the "crazy Kes" doesn't make any sense either. She was one of the last persons who would go crazy.

What we saw in "Fury" was downright character destruction and that is what annoys me with the episode. They brought her back after two years only for that!

The story was totally unecessary for the ongoing Voyager saga and it also totally ruined every possibility to have Kes back in upcoming Voyager books.

No other character has been so ruined and destroyed as Kes was.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Cold Fire was the introduction of the "dark side" that took over in Fury. It makes perfect sense and bring something interesting to an otherwise very dull character

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

I didn't care much for the episode "Fury" mainly because we didn't get to see what she went through to bring her to the point where she now hated the Voyager crew. The saving thing though is that once AGAIN Kes was able to fight down her darker impulses so the character exited the episode with her dignity intact.

For me Kes is a living battleground for good and evil and is an example of how both love and strength of will can save the day. Love her or hate her you can't take that away...

I agree with some of the things what you have written here but I must disagree with your comment about "the character exited with her dignity intact". I don't think she did.

Personally I find the "Kes" we saw at the end a pathetic creature to say the least, far from the brave explorer who she was in seasons 1-3. Where was the brave young Ocampa who left her world to learn and explore space? It was so out of character. That was not the real Kes!

It was like watching some end episode of TOS where Captain Kirk had turned into some alcoholic wreck who despised and denied his whole Starfleet careeer. I don't think that the TOS fans would have liked or accepted such a solution.

And the "crazy Kes" doesn't make any sense either. She was one of the last persons who would go crazy.

What we saw in "Fury" was downright character destruction and that is what annoys me with the episode. They brought her back after two years only for that!

The story was totally unecessary for the ongoing Voyager saga and it also totally ruined every possibility to have Kes back in upcoming Voyager books.

No other character has been so ruined and destroyed as Kes was.

Sorry buddy, but it was the real Kes. Nothing said in the episode indicates that it wasn't Kes. And she wasn't destroyed. At the end she was the same kind person she was in the beginning of the show, just a bit older.

 

[exodus]

Well, temptation can be difficult to withstand but in this case, I do think that Kes was better suited than any other on that ship to withstand evil temptation. In fact, she did show in both "Cold Fire" and Warlord "that she could do that, didn't she?

I'm sorry but that's not logically sound. How can someone that has never seen the outside world and has no life experance outside their "gated" community be better suited to withstand temptation than an entire ship of people that have not only seen their world but large parts of the galaxy and the beings in it?

That's like dropping an Tibetan Monk in the middle of Times Square and expecting him not to fall for every con out there. That's not ever realistic by sci-fi standards.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Well, temptation can be difficult to withstand but in this case, I do think that Kes was better suited than any other on that ship to withstand evil temptation. In fact, she did show in both "Cold Fire" and Warlord "that she could do that, didn't she?

I'm sorry but that's not logically sound. How can someone that has never seen the outside world and has no life experance outside their "gated" community be better suited to withstand temptation than an entire ship of people that have not only seen their world but large parts of the galaxy and the beings in it?

That's like dropping an Tibetan Monk in the middle of Times Square and expecting him not to fall for every con out there. That's not ever realistic by sci-fi standards.

Exactly! For that very reason it was interesting to see Kes get into trouble in Sacred Ground.

 

[exodus]

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

You're missing the point. She achieve orgasm killing those plants, how many people resist or overcome that sensation once achieved?

Passion & desire are the strongest emotions we have. For good, it gives us ambition and motivate us to achieve our goals. For bad, it causes lovers to commit murder in jealous rages.

It's the basis of every play written by Shakespeare.

 

[exodus]

Well, temptation can be difficult to withstand but in this case, I do think that Kes was better suited than any other on that ship to withstand evil temptation. In fact, she did show in both "Cold Fire" and Warlord "that she could do that, didn't she?

I'm sorry but that's not logically sound. How can someone that has never seen the outside world and has no life experance outside their "gated" community be better suited to withstand temptation than an entire ship of people that have not only seen their world but large parts of the galaxy and the beings in it?

That's like dropping an Tibetan Monk in the middle of Times Square and expecting him not to fall for every con out there. That's not ever realistic by sci-fi standards.

Exactly! For that very reason it was interesting to see Kes get into trouble in Sacred Ground.

Exactly, she got into trouble because she didn't know any better. She walked into something she didn't even know what it was and it killed her.

 

[Mrs Paris]

We all have a dark side and Kes certainly wasn't dull. Sure, she was small, and young but she was also way underestimated by her opponentts. Every time someone or something tried to turn her to the dark side she was able to overcome them.

You're missing the point. She achieve orgasm killing those plants, how many people resist or overcome that sensation once achieved?

it does seem that way doesn't it. Maybe she didn't fully orgasm but she sure did ENJOY the feeling she had

Passion & desire are the strongest emotions we have. For good, it gives us ambition and motivate us to achieve our goals. For bad, it causes lovers to commit murder in jealous rages.

It's the basis of every play written by Shakespeare.

Passion is what makes a character interesting. Nobody wants to watch a dull character who is perfect all the time. And a character that lived underground with no perception of anything but her own sheltered community, to suddenly be hurled into so many unique situations and know exactly what to do in all of them is incredibly unbelievable.

 

[exodus]

Passion is what makes a character interesting. Nobody wants to watch a dull character who is perfect all the time. And a character that lived underground with no perception of anything but her own sheltered community, to suddenly be hurled into so many unique situations and know exactly what to do in all of them is incredibly unbelievable.

Bingo!

Neelix who had many life experances was fasinated by the replicator and transporter the first time he saw/used him. Kes, who's never seen anything other than her underground world was never once in awe or curious about anything on the ship. She wasn't even surprised by a man popping out of thin air.(The EMH)

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[kimc]

I agree with some of the things what you have written here but I must disagree with your comment about "the character exited with her dignity intact". I don't think she did.

I can certainly understand the disappointment you felt over Kes leaving and the way her return was handled. I can particularly relate due to my horror at the whole "C/7 Endgame fiasco".

However, I generally like to take a "glass is half-full" approach and point out that it could have been worse. They could have ended the episode with Kes still a villain and a defeated one at that. Instead, she won an epic battle for her soul.

You're missing the point. She achieve orgasm killing those plants, how many people resist or overcome that sensation once achieved?

Quite frankly it depends on the person. For those who are motivated by instant gratification and who make their decisions based on emotion it would be very hard indeed. For others who apply long-term thinking and make their decisions based on logic it would be a different story.

Yes, it has been proven that not all humans make decisions the same way. That's the basis of tests like Myers-Brigg, etc. Now this does not mean that the emotional decision-makers are never logical or that the logical decision makers never feel pleasure or emotional intimacy but not everyone thinks the same way or is motivated by the same things.

The fact that Kes was able to resist the temptation of that power in "Cold Fire" is testament to her inner strength which continued to serve her throughout her life. For there was a power that was even stronger and that was the love she felt for her friends.

Kes chose love over the instant gratification her powers could have bought her. That takes an inner strength which I personally find admirable.

Exactly, she got into trouble because she didn't know any better. She walked into something she didn't even know what it was and it killed her.

Um, Kes never actually died at any point during "Sacred Ground".

 

[exodus]

Quite frankly it depends on the person. For those who are motivated by instant gratification and who make their decisions based on emotion it would be very hard indeed. For others who apply long-term thinking and make their decisions based on logic it would be a different story.

Yes, it has been proven that not all humans make decisions the same way. That's the basis of tests like Myers-Brigg, etc. Now this does not mean that the emotional decision-makers are never logical or that the logical decision makers never feel pleasure or emotional intimacy but not everyone thinks the same way or is motivated by the same things.

All of which come from life experance, none of which Kes had. Most of the "wisdom" Kes has was basic advise because she didn't see the "world" as complex as human adults do. She sees the "world" in black & white like a child does. That is why she didn't see the EMH as anything but "real". She asked a computer program if it's "feelings" ever got hurt.

 

[Deks]

Passion is what makes a character interesting. Nobody wants to watch a dull character who is perfect all the time. And a character that lived underground with no perception of anything but her own sheltered community, to suddenly be hurled into so many unique situations and know exactly what to do in all of them is incredibly unbelievable.

Bingo!

Neelix who had many life experances was fasinated by the replicator and transporter the first time he saw/used him. Kes, who's never seen anything other than her underground world was never once in awe or curious about anything on the ship. She wasn't even surprised by a man popping out of thin air.(The EMH)

That doesn't make any sense.

Why ?
Perhaps the Ocampa have a rich literature that speculates about such aspects, and if anything, Kes spent several months as a servant to the Kazon (and was abused as well).

Also, if you were to suddenly be transported away to a starship by aliens that has a matter-energy converter and solid holograms, would you be popping your eyes out just because that society is more technologically advanced?
Kes was still thought to have been essentially a child back then (ok ... a teenager) ... and kids as such could be very open minded.
The Voyager environment would be new to her yes, but the Caretaker from her perspective was extremely powerful entity of which she knew.
Also we don't know the full background of the Ocampa race and what their culture is like.
Kes was a type of individual that was virtually speculating about aspects that her friends didn't want or dare contemplate on.
It's all a matter of individual perspective and open-mindedness.

Not everyone has to scream 'WOW' at a novelty or a far more sophisticated technology.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Passion is what makes a character interesting. Nobody wants to watch a dull character who is perfect all the time. And a character that lived underground with no perception of anything but her own sheltered community, to suddenly be hurled into so many unique situations and know exactly what to do in all of them is incredibly unbelievable.

Bingo!

Neelix who had many life experances was fasinated by the replicator and transporter the first time he saw/used him. Kes, who's never seen anything other than her underground world was never once in awe or curious about anything on the ship. She wasn't even surprised by a man popping out of thin air.(The EMH)

That doesn't make any sense.

and that's exactly some of the missed oportunity I'm talking about. To have someone with a fresh perspective learning and asking questions about our technology and our culture is how we reexamine ourselves.

among other things I think there should have been a scene with her and a conversation along the lines of her asking why her species is the only one that lives for such a short time and even getting upset about it.

 

[kimc]

All of which come from life experance, none of which Kes had. .

According to human standards. Kes is an Ocampa and was considered an adult by their standards. Expecting her to process experiences the same way as a human does is losing sight of that, imo.

 

[Mrs Paris]

All of which come from life experance, none of which Kes had. .

According to human standards. Kes is an Ocampa and was considered an adult by their standards. Expecting her to process experiences the same way as a human does is losing sight of that, imo.

but where was she getting those experiences from and when? She had her second birthday in the second season of Voyager, so she had already spent almost a full year there, that means that she only had a year on her own planet, not a life time to experience things