I don't get it.

[PhoenixIreland]

I liked it becase

1. We were on the Borgs home turf so could explore them more
2. Got the chance to see a female captain in action
3. Don't get me wrong I like Genes vision of the future but I think TNG gave us the impression everyone was perfect, people will make mistakes and I liked the whole Paris being the rebel who redeemed himself thing.
4. Being stranded away from the Alpha Quadrant cut them free from some of the more boring alien races like the Romulans.
5. It keps the ST social commentary aspect like "critical care" and explored future controversy like Holographic rights

I disliked

1. They over-relied too much on the Borg while ignoring the poitential of alot of Delta quadrant foes like the Videens and the Hirogen.
2. Kes....existed...
3. The ship was getting along way too easily for one that was in so many battles but had no access to a starbase
4. The way they got to the Delta Quadrant...god that was awful

I agree on the Kes part...man I hated her

but let me get this straight you said you liked Voyager because they could go into much more detail on the Borg, but you dislike Voyage because they went into detail on the Borg??????

I actualy don't think that they had too many episodes about the borg. I've done a count and at the most there are 8 episodes out of the whole show that have anything more than the mention of the word Borg. There are about 8 episodes only when they actualy interact with the Borg. 8 out of something like 170 episodes isn't that much

I didn't hate the detail on the Borg, I just think they should have went into some of the other Delta Quadrant villans in more detail as well, like the Hirogen and Videens who had huge poitential.

 

[Mrs Paris]

I liked it becase

1. We were on the Borgs home turf so could explore them more
2. Got the chance to see a female captain in action
3. Don't get me wrong I like Genes vision of the future but I think TNG gave us the impression everyone was perfect, people will make mistakes and I liked the whole Paris being the rebel who redeemed himself thing.
4. Being stranded away from the Alpha Quadrant cut them free from some of the more boring alien races like the Romulans.
5. It keps the ST social commentary aspect like "critical care" and explored future controversy like Holographic rights

I disliked

1. They over-relied too much on the Borg while ignoring the poitential of alot of Delta quadrant foes like the Videens and the Hirogen.
2. Kes....existed...
3. The ship was getting along way too easily for one that was in so many battles but had no access to a starbase
4. The way they got to the Delta Quadrant...god that was awful

I agree on the Kes part...man I hated her

but let me get this straight you said you liked Voyager because they could go into much more detail on the Borg, but you dislike Voyage because they went into detail on the Borg??????

I actualy don't think that they had too many episodes about the borg. I've done a count and at the most there are 8 episodes out of the whole show that have anything more than the mention of the word Borg. There are about 8 episodes only when they actualy interact with the Borg. 8 out of something like 170 episodes isn't that much

I didn't hate the detail on the Borg, I just think they should have went into some of the other Delta Quadrant villans in more detail as well, like the Hirogen and Videens who had huge poitential.

The vidians and hirogen did have several episodes each. We learned a good deal about their cultures

 

[Akiraprise]

Remember, Mrs Paris doesn't like Kes. Therefore "Fury" would be awesome.

 

[exodus]

You do like to nitpick, don't you?

If you want to say a statement I outlined is false and then offer one which in no way contradicts it, then of course I'm going to point that out. That is hardly a nitpick or a minor factual error; the essential premise of the statement is flawed.

So, is that a "yes"?

 

[Mrs Paris]

Remember, Mrs Paris doesn't like Kes. Therefore "Fury" would be awesome.

My liking of the episode has nothing to do with my dislike of Kes. I just like the episode (even though my favorite character gets killed in one scene)

I like time travel paradox episodes, just about all of them. There's the realy cute scene inthe beginning with Tuvok and his cake, there's the fantastic sequences of Kes storming down the hallway with the walls exploding behind her, there's the cute little scene with Naomi.


by the way Akiraprise, I love your avitar, that scene made me jump out of my seat

 

[exodus]

Anybody notice that "The Gift", Kes' good-bye ep. ends with Tuvok lighting a candle for her and "Fury", her return starts by him blowing one out?

 

[Akiraprise]

Thank you.
I like Fury for the same reasons actually. I also like Kes though too. Follow up to this Dark Phoenix story was sorely needed.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Anybody notice that "The Gift", Kes' good-bye ep. ends with Tuvok lighting a candle for her and "Fury", her return starts by him blowing one out?

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

 

[exodus]

Anybody notice that "The Gift", Kes' good-bye ep. ends with Tuvok lighting a candle for her and "Fury", her return starts by him blowing one out?

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Anybody notice that "The Gift", Kes' good-bye ep. ends with Tuvok lighting a candle for her and "Fury", her return starts by him blowing one out?

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities.

EXACTLY what I always though!!!!!!!!!

 

[exodus]

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities.

EXACTLY what I always though!!!!!!!!!

How people missed the fact that she had an orgasm when she killed the plants in "Coldfire", I'll never know.

She falls to the ground, out of breath & sweating w/ her eyes rolling into the back of her head. Looks like her had lots of fun at taking life.

That should have been a big clue.

 

[Red Ranger]

I don't know, i might give it another chance. I've only watched parts of maybe 9 or 10 episodes. Maybe i will borrow the dvds off one of my buddies.

Rio:

Since you've only seen a handful of eps, I think you should watch some more to have a better picture of the show.

I happen to think the last two ST shows are the weakest, but I started rewatching VOY eps in reruns and remember what I liked about the show: the characters and the premise, for the most part, are what appeal to me.

Sure, it's a bit like Lost In Space without a cute kid and robot, but at its best, VOY was a mature show.

My favorite characters were B'Elanna, the Doctor, Tom Paris, and Seven.

B'Elanna is just stunning, and it was good to have even a part-Klingon not be the aggressive security chief/tactical officer, and instead be the brilliant engineer.

Tom I always thought was a great, fun-loving guy who has a chip on his shoulder because he's not perfect, but wishes he was.

The Doctor is just a fun curmudgeon. Being a curmudgeon myself is probably one of the reasons I lke his character.

Seven had the contradictory attributes of being beautiful yet aloof and a genius. Her voyage of discovery -- learning to be human again -- was a metaphor for the kidnapped child being reintegrated into normal society again.

Neelix, Kes, and Harry were the weakest characters. I would've liked Harry to have become the former good little officer who goes off his nut a little on the 7-year journey and become a bit more of a bad boy. I would've liked him to become more defiant of Janeway but she has to put up with him because he's brilliant at what he does -- his arrogance would've made him indispensible.

Janeway, Chakotay, and Tuvok were at times likable, other times, meh. My main objection to Tuvok is we've seen Vulcans before -- I don't see what was so special about him, other than as a full Vulcan, he often had trouble understanding human emotions, despite the fact he was supposed to be more than 100 years old. I did like the idea that he wasn't yet another science officer.

So give it more of a chance, buddy!

Red Ranger

 

[Mrs Paris]

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities.

EXACTLY what I always though!!!!!!!!!

How people missed the fact that she had an orgasm when she killed the plants in "Coldfire", I'll never know.

She falls to the ground, out of breath & sweating w/ her eyes rolling into the back of her head. Looks like her had lots of fun at taking life.

That should have been a big clue.

even she said herself that she LIKED the dark power she had

 

[exodus]

EXACTLY what I always though!!!!!!!!!

How people missed the fact that she had an orgasm when she killed the plants in "Coldfire", I'll never know.

She falls to the ground, out of breath & sweating w/ her eyes rolling into the back of her head. Looks like her had lots of fun at taking life.

That should have been a big clue.

even she said herself that she LIKED the dark power she had

Yep, she did and because of that it also scared her. She told Tuvok she wouldn't use them again but he still encouraged her to anyway.

 

[exodus]

My main objection to Tuvok is we've seen Vulcans before -- I don't see what was so special about him, other than as a full Vulcan, he often had trouble understanding human emotions, despite the fact he was supposed to be more than 100 years old. I did like the idea that he wasn't yet another science officer.

Because unlike Nimoy and Blalock, Tim Russ never broke character until the script called for it. Once in a while an emotion would slip out of Spock, Blalock more often than not. Tim Russ was flawless. He expressed more with one look or eye brow raised than most of the other actors around him with the entire range of emotions available to them. Unlike Spock or T'Pol, he did accept and understand human emotions, he just didn't apply them to himself. He found Janeway erractic & stubborn but also acknowledged those traits also gave her strength.

Tim Russ reset the standard IMO of how to play a Vulcan.

 

[Mrs Paris]

My main objection to Tuvok is we've seen Vulcans before -- I don't see what was so special about him, other than as a full Vulcan, he often had trouble understanding human emotions, despite the fact he was supposed to be more than 100 years old. I did like the idea that he wasn't yet another science officer.

Because unlike Nimoy and Blalock, Tim Russ never broke character until the script called for it. Once in a while an emotion would slip out of Spock, Blalock more often than not. Tim Russ was flawless. He expressed more with one look or eye brow raised than most of the other actors around him with the entire range of emotions available to them. Unlike Spock or T'Pol, he did accept and understand human emotions, he just didn't apply them to himself. He found Janeway erractic & stubborn but also acknowledged those traits also gave her strength.

Tim Russ reset the standard IMO of how to play a Vulcan.

beautifuly said.

I actualy think that Tuvok had some of the funniest scenes inthe show too

 

[Lynx]

Anybody notice that "The Gift", Kes' good-bye ep. ends with Tuvok lighting a candle for her and "Fury", her return starts by him blowing one out?

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

 

[Akiraprise]

I think the episode deserved to be made, it just needed some follow up. Or an episode before it explaining where Kes was coming from with her rage towards Voyager.

 

[Mrs Paris]

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

I do find your theories wrong in this matter Lynx and I agree with exodus. There is a very clear obvious connection between Cold Fire and Fury. If you watch the episodes objectively you can clearly see it. Cold Fire was the introduction of the "dark side" that took over in Fury. It makes perfect sense and bring something interesting to an otherwise very dull character

 

[exodus]

I didn't notice that before, I wonder if that was done on purpose?

I'd like to think it was.

With Kes, much explained about her was subtle. Which is why many think "Fury" is a character assissination when it isn't. She explained in "Coldfire" that over using her powers brings out her "dark emotions". I think the problem is, there's a big gap of time inbetween the eps. Many don't catch that they're bookend eps. until they rewatch it.

Kes was telling us all along that she was going to get crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging her to use her abilities. Kes was too innocent and lacked the know how to balance both sides, so the thrill of being bad consumed her.

Well exodus, we have had this debate before and I guess we'll never agree.

Once again, I respectfully must state that I do find your theories about this matter are wrong or at least exaggerated.

I see no connection at all between the events in "Cold Fire" and "Fury". On the contrary, "Cold Fire" clearly show us that Kes, though she was manipulated by Tanis, was strong enough and had enough willpower to break free from his evil influence which she actually did and at the same time she saved the ship from being destroyed.

She also showed the same strength and willpower to defeat the evil warlord Tieran when he had gotten control over her body and mind.

I have watched the episodes in season 1-3 many times and I don't see any scene where Kes "tells us that she will go crazy if Janeway & crew kept encouraging here to use her abilities" except for the end scenes in "Cold Fire" where she clearly states that she don't want to see that part of her again and since she's a strong-willed character I'm pretty sure that she could handle it.

If we look at the writing for the series, I highly doubt that there were any "plan" for Kes turning bad, like "OK we let her dabble with her abilities in season one, makes her temporary evil in some episode in season 2 and then we makes her crazy and destroy the character in season 6". There were never any such plans. If there had been, I'm sure that they would have been presented by those in charge when "Fury" was criticized by many fans.

She wasn't even the first choice to be dumped in season 4, Kim was.

As for "Fury", since this awful subject is brought up in this thread, I must state once and for all that, as a fan of the character Kes, I hate the episode. That's my opinion about it.

I know that there are people who disagree with my theories why the episode was made so therefore I will only state that the whole episode was..............a terrible mistake from those in charge which did annoy most of the fans of Kes. The episode should never have been made.

Even the strongest of will fall for the traps of temptation, dude. If we didn't, we would always do the right things all the time. Nobody would ever fight, do drugs or have sex out of wedlock but we all fall for one of these traps of temptation. It's part of being human, which was the point of Trek's "exploration". Nobody but nobody born innocent stays that way, we all sin and give into some type of act of temptation.

Besides, didn't you notice that she got free by boiling their blood? Sweet little innocent Kes tried to kill both men, yet didn't kill any Kazon that abused her before her power emerged. That doesn't seem odd to you?