Starship Platform Lifespans

[XCV330]

The thing is, most uses of the Reliant, Excelsior and Oberth models were originally envisioned as other, newer vessels in TNG:

USS Tsiolkovsky: Was meant to be a brand-new science vessel commissioned the same year as the Enterprise-D.

USS Fearless: Was meant to be the first appearance of Andrew Probert's Ambassador class.

USS Lantree: Was meant to be a newer very small supply ship with a crew of only 26 people.

USS Brattain: Was meant to be a newer small science vessel built in the 2330s with a crew of only 35 people.

USS Bozeman: Was meant to be a TOS Constitution class starship (not technically a 'newer' vessel, but a new model would have had to have been built for it.)

USS Raman: Was meant to be a new science vessel contemporary to the Enterprise-D (no model was ever built for it, but the Encyclopedia makes it an Oberth.)

USS Pegasus: Was supposed to be a newer ship commissioned only five years before the Enterprise-D.


So they weren't good at being upgraded so much as they were just the go-to models because the producers were too cheap to build new ones.

yes but I am speaking more theoretically in terms some sort of in-series rationale. If we go to real reasons, there will always be budget and design language reasons (some folks really loved Carrozzeria Bertone, in the 80s. Ent-D's chairs came right out of a Lancia Stratos. I digress.)

I used to find it annoying that they did reuse those models so much, especially Oberth, a ship I just find silly and ugly, but now I enjoy the idiosyncrasy of this massive star-fleet that makes many new ship designs will still leaving old ones in service and even building new copies of the old designs alongside the new ones.

 

[Dukhat]

yes but I am speaking more theoretically in terms some sort of in-series rationale.

Oh, I know. I'm just pointing out that the intention was never to have these movie-era ships last as long as they did. If they budgeted for new models right from the start, we probably would never even have seen the Excelsior, Reliant and Oberth models in TNG, unless the script specifically called for a ship from that era.

 

[Ithekro]

Given the Excelsior was brand new in the films right before TNG came out, I could buy that there would be a few of them left. Late production models that are near retirement. Even if they did have the budget for new models, I could believe those showing up every once in a while.

 

[Dukhat]

Given the Excelsior was brand new in the films right before TNG came out, I could buy that there would be a few of them left. Late production models that are near retirement. Even if they did have the budget for new models, I could believe those showing up every once in a while.

Oh, absolutely. For a 5 second scene of some nameless background ship transporting a VIP to the Enterprise-D, they didn’t need an all-new filming model for that. But if the ship was the focal point of the story (like the Brattain or the Pegasus), then it would have been nice if they’d spent a few extra budget dollars on a new model.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

It just seems like maybe it's actually easier in some cases to replace and recycle rather than to upgrade.

My theory why we don't see more ships the like the Centaur is that those were only built as they replaced Miranda's and there just weren't that many that got replaced until the Galaxy family of ships we developed and so they started building Nebula class ships instead.

Scaling differences aside, this assumes idea that the Centaur is the Excelsior-style equivalent to the Miranda, which can be debated, but this theory could apply to other ship classes.

It would have been interesting to see how this whole conversation would have gone if the Pegasus model had been built. Someone on this site claimed that it would have looked like a Miranda or Nebula but using Ambassador-type modules. That would put it in the general category of the Freedom and Niagara. I have contended the the Ambassador was not a separate generation of ships, but instead an up-rated Excelsior, and I wonder if giving the Ambassador its Miranda-like version would have changed my mind on that.

So they weren't good at being upgraded so much as they were just the go-to models because the producers were too cheap to build new ones.

In a way, we ought to just pretend that some of the Oberth-class ships shown in TNG were really Springfield class ships.

Given the Excelsior was brand new in the films right before TNG came out, I could buy that there would be a few of them left.

I agree that a few Excelsior class ships would likely be shown.

 

[XCV330]

I just accept that the Lost Era was a pretty odd time for the UFP, some brush fire wars but nothing terrible, culminating in Starfleet feeling so secure they could put families onboard exploration ships, and flying ships nearly a century old. They weren't ready for the borg incursions, and the Dominion War solidified those changes towards newer, better, ships.

 

[publiusr]

Oh, absolutely. For a 5 second scene of some nameless background ship transporting a VIP to the Enterprise-D, they didn’t need an all-new filming model for that. But if the ship was the focal point of the story (like the Brattain or the Pegasus), then it would have been nice if they’d spent a few extra budget dollars on a new model.

That’s why I would love to see another TNG remaster. Newer looking ships.

 

[Dukhat]

That’s why I would love to see another TNG remaster. Newer looking ships.

Unfortunately this will never happen short of fan-made productions.

 

[Albertese]

My head canon is that right around 2280 or so the Organian Peace treaty went out of effect one way or another and the cold war really ramped up. Starfleet invested heavily in a small group of reliable spaceframes and their variations. Oberths are cheap to build and operate and Mirandas are very efficient. Old Class I hulls can be refit into newer Constitutions or a number of refit variants. Estimations of Klingon fleet strength made it seem like hundreds of hulls would be needed to effectively defend against them in an all out war and shipyard capacity blew up. The 2280s Klingon War never did materialize, and when Praxis led to the Khitomer Accords, one of the conditions was to retire the Constitution-class. It was seen as symbolic of the tradition of hostility between the UFP and the Empire and it was after all an aging design so Starfleet was willing to pull even the youngest ships like the Enterprise-A from service as a political gesture and its Excelsior replacements were ready to go. The 2290s would have seen a ramp-down of new constructions from the previous decade, except for Excelsiors, which are being seen as the new workhorse since Constitutions are out of the picture.

In the 2300s, new builds of Oberths, Mirandas, Constellations, and Excelsiors are still ongoing, but at a much reduced pace from the 2280s. The 2210s start the design development into the Ambassador era ships, of which, I would put many of Okuda's otherwise unseen encyclopedia entry ships. As to why we see so few Ambassadors in the shows, I speculate that there were never VERY many of them and what were built were mostly sent on long range exploration missions and were still out there even as late as the Dominion War. If most of the Ambassadors were laid down in the 2330s, they would be approaching 50 by the war.

The 2330s and 2340s would see the development of the Galaxy family of ships including the Wolf-359 ships. Most of these were built in fairly small numbers, since 2280 vintage Oberths and Mirandas and 2290s Excelsiors are still doing the bulk of the work. 23rd Century built ships are nearly all specialists ships with narrower mission profiles. Oberths are still used a lot but many are being moved into civilian service. Mirandas are beginning to be pulled into mothball yards or used for reduced mission profiles with smaller crews (like the Brittain), but they remain operational for quick reactivation if needed are typically upgraded with modern computer and sensor equipment.

The bigger ships, Galaxy and Nebula in the 2350s and 60s are built with the intention of being new generalist ships, Nebulas to replace aging Excesiors and Galaxys to replace the Ambassadors in long range exploration. But Galaxy performance over the 2370s proved somewhat disappointing with surprisingly heavy losses for the class. So they never got a lot of traction after the 2380s.

When the Dominion War began, there weren't a lot of ships set up for mainly fighting roles in the 23rd Century builds, but Klingon Cold War Mirandas and Excelsiors are either still in service or easily reactivated in high enough numbers to form the bulk of the fighting force. But they suffered enough losses that after the Dominion War they were very few and far between, requiring Starfleet to lean into building the ships that we see in the later shows.

I personally haven't had much interest in the CBS streaming shows, so I haven't put much thought into how they add to the story.

--Alex

 

[Dukhat]

In the 2300s, new builds of Oberths, Mirandas, Constellations, and Excelsiors are still ongoing, but at a much reduced pace from the 2280s. The 2210s start the design development into the Ambassador era ships, of which, I would put many of Okuda's otherwise unseen encyclopedia entry ships. As to why we see so few Ambassadors in the shows, I speculate that there were never VERY many of them and what were built were mostly sent on long range exploration missions and were still out there even as late as the Dominion War. If most of the Ambassadors were laid down in the 2330s, they would be approaching 50 by the war.

I have a bit of a different take on that. The prevailing belief about the lack of Ambassadors is that they were all away on deep space exploration missions, but the four times we actually saw them on screen, they were doing nothing of the sort. My head-canon is that the numerous Excelsiors produced after the 2290's were doing the bulk of the exploring, and the Ambassadors were built for defense and the various wars going on between the Tholians, Talarians, Cardassians, etc., and were mostly damaged or destroyed by the 2360's.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The prevailing belief about the lack of Ambassadors is that they were all away on deep space exploration missions, but the four times we actually saw them on screen, they were doing nothing of the sort.

It's rare to see any ship doing a deep space exploration mission on screen, because they're all off in deep space. Their absence is the best clue to what they're doing.

 

[Dukhat]

It's rare to see any ship doing a deep space exploration mission on screen, because they're all off in deep space. Their absence is the best clue to what they're doing.

Actually, the presence of the four ships we did see is the better clue as to what they were doing.

 

[Ithekro]

Wasn't one of the ships that was offered to Riker going to be an Ambassador-class that was a long ways out doing deep space exploration? Or was that another type of starships (I'm thinking the second ship he was offered, during the second season).

 

[Albertese]

I have a bit of a different take on that. The prevailing belief about the lack of Ambassadors is that they were all away on deep space exploration missions, but the four times we actually saw them on screen, they were doing nothing of the sort. My head-canon is that the numerous Excelsiors produced after the 2290's were doing the bulk of the exploring, and the Ambassadors were built for defense and the various wars going on between the Tholians, Talarians, Cardassians, etc., and were mostly damaged or destroyed by the 2360's.

I would agree that Excelsiors were doing the bulk of the exploring from 2300 to the 2330s. And still much of the near-UFP exploration and science missions, and defense roles well into the 2360s. But the very fact that the Ambassador-class ships are named "Ambassador" suggests a diplomatic role. I agree that they are their era's premier "flagship" class and are fully equipped for combat roles, but I suggest that they were mostly equipped and used for exploratory roles in deep deep space, trying to make friendly contact with new civilizations. After all, if 12 were built and we only happened to see 4 of them on deployments near home space, that doesn't demonstrate the other 8 can't be well away from the Federation finding new people to say hi to. It could be that those 4 just happened to be near home for crew rotations between longer deployments or perhaps had been badly damaged further from home and brought back for more limited roles or refit for heavier local defense for any number of reasons. And it does seem that the current "premier" ship doesn't typically get thrust into the battlefield role right away; look at the absence of Sovereign-class ships fighting the Dominion. So, I would never think that they were developed as a response to hostilities with Tholians or Cardassians.

--Alex

 

[Dukhat]

Wasn't one of the ships that was offered to Riker going to be an Ambassador-class that was a long ways out doing deep space exploration? Or was that another type of starships (I'm thinking the second ship he was offered, during the second season).

It was a Renaissance class starship.

 

[David cgc]

Actually, the presence of the four ships we did see is the better clue as to what they were doing.

By that logic, I can assume that the job of 99% of the people in my city is driving on main roads, since that's the only place I ever see them.

 

[Dukhat]

By that logic, I can assume that the job of 99% of the people in my city is driving on main roads, since that's the only place I ever see them.

And by that same logic, if you never see any people at all, they all must have driven to the Moon. Which was what @Ray Hardgrit implied by his response.

 

[Dukhat]

I would agree that Excelsiors were doing the bulk of the exploring from 2300 to the 2330s. And still much of the near-UFP exploration and science missions, and defense roles well into the 2360s. But the very fact that the Ambassador-class ships are named "Ambassador" suggests a diplomatic role. I agree that they are their era's premier "flagship" class and are fully equipped for combat roles, but I suggest that they were mostly equipped and used for exploratory roles in deep deep space, trying to make friendly contact with new civilizations. After all, if 12 were built and we only happened to see 4 of them on deployments near home space, that doesn't demonstrate the other 8 can't be well away from the Federation finding new people to say hi to. It could be that those 4 just happened to be near home for crew rotations between longer deployments or perhaps had been badly damaged further from home and brought back for more limited roles or refit for heavier local defense for any number of reasons. And it does seem that the current "premier" ship doesn't typically get thrust into the battlefield role right away; look at the absence of Sovereign-class ships fighting the Dominion. So, I would never think that they were developed as a response to hostilities with Tholians or Cardassians.

--Alex

Let me be a little clearer: my hypothesis is based on what we actually saw on screen, not the authorial intent.

The authorial intent was that the Excelsior class Hood in EaF would be the only use of that model, and by WNMHGB, the USS Fearless would be a new filming model of Andrew Probert’s Ambassador class, which would then be used exclusively as guest starships. But instead, the Fearless model was never built and they just used stock footage of the Hood for subsequent shots as well as reusing the Excelsior model yet again for the Repulse (and all the stock footage of that ship for even more Excelsiors.)

So if that Probert Ambassador class model had been built, we would have seen a lot more of it than all those Excelsiors, cementing the idea that the class was doing diplomatic duty or exploration duty (which would then be supplanted by the new Galaxy class.) But by the time we got Rick Sternbach’s model, it ended up just doing the same things the Excelsiors were doing, and not specifically given diplomatic or exploration roles.

And then by the Dominion war, we then had to ask the question of why we saw a ton of Excelsiors but not a single Ambassador. Putting aside the in-real-life answer (the physical model was damaged and crated up after its use in Emissary), the most logical explanation to me, based on on-screen evidence, is that they just weren’t around anymore due to previous war casualties.

Of course, this is only my interpretation, and subject to debate.

 

[Ithekro]

As we see with the Galaxy-class Enterprise, it is not out on a deep space exploration mission, it is the "Federation Flagship" and seems to do whatever. From First Contacts, to Diplomacy, to Patrolling the Neutral Zone, to everyone once in a while, the whims of Captain Picard. That starship is rarely on the Frontier, and did not go out on an extended multi-year mission outside of Federation space.

USS Yamato was conducting archeological operations and research, even though it was close to the Neutral Zone (post-Romulan return). Other Galaxy-class ships we see sort of show up near Deep Space Nine (USS Odessey and USS Venture) at times of crisis. USS Galaxy gets put on the front lines of the Dominion War. Though the starship class isn't all that old at the time, with Galaxy being the oldest by a handful of years over Yamato and Enterprise, both having been destroyed before the Dominion War, though both would have been about a decade old at that point.

One might guess the Ambassador-class starships were given similar roles early in their careers. Having the new large starships flying around the Federation, fixing hotspots, doing First Contacts with species in or near Federation space, and keeping an eye on the Cardassians. (with some runs near the Neutral Zone to make sure the Romulans know Starfleet is still there). As they got older and there were more than a handful of them in service, Starfleet would start sending some out for Deep Space Exploration missions that were more ambitious than the old Constitution's Five Year Missions (even though those also didn't generally stay outside of Federation Space). Starships like USS Olympia managed an eight years mission outside of Federation Space, though we do now know exactly what class of starship that ship was. USS Enterprise-C ran into Klingon space to meet its fate around the time the Galaxy Project was starting up. It would still be nearly 20 years before the Ambassadors would start getting a replacement in the Galaxy-class and Nebula-class starships.

 

[Dukhat]

Starships like USS Olympia managed an eight years mission outside of Federation Space, though we do now know exactly what class of starship that ship was.

It was made from the destroyed TMP Enterprise saucer from STIII, so it wasn't an Ambassador class.