At least with Ben Solo they already established from the start that there was already a lot of conflict in him between the light and the dark, unlike Vader who was pretty much full on evil until Return of the Jedi.
News Adam Driver tried to bring back Kylo Ren with the help of Steven Soderbergh
"At least?" LOL, that makes Ben's record of mass murder far worse than Anakin's, in that he knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew from Anakin's example that what Anakin had done was wrong, and - unlike Anakin, whose only parent was dead by the time he turned, with Obi-Wan promptly vanishing - Ben/Kylo actively rejected his parents' pleas for him to turn from the Dark Side, personally killing one of them, leading an attack that nearly killed the other, and attempted to kill his uncle. (Hell, from a certain point of view, he did kill Luke.)
Put it this way: wouldn't you be angrier at someone who decided do drive while moderately drunk (i.e., not too far gone to know better), vs. someone who was so drunk they decided to do so while no more capable of reason than someone who was asleep? I sure as hell would.
So no, until and unless Soderbergh's story pitch leaks, and I'm proven wrong, I have no interest in a story in which Ben Solo earns anything other than a lifetime of humane imprisonment and quiet penance.
Yeah, but to my mind that makes it even worse. “I’m not entirely sure if I’m committed to this… okay, I’m killing Dad!”
At least Vader had a compelling reason to get caught up in the Dark Side; he’s so attached he’s willing to sacrifice everything and everybody to save the wife he loves (and so, of course, he sacrifices everything and everybody and doesn’t save her, and is trapped). With Kylo it’s vague resentment and basically unspecified “darkness” (and I guess a fixation on Grampa).
This is totally new information, this changes everything.
Yeah, Anakin was trying to do the right thing against his negative impulses when he was a Jedi, but failed. Ben was trying to do the wrong thing while fighting his desire to do good, which is an interesting twist, but also makes him a willfully bad person in a way that challenges any kind of redemption arc.
RotJ put a lot of work into showing that Anakin hated being Darth Vader, but when the rubber hit the road, Ben doubled down on being Kylo Ren, and relished it.
RotJ put a lot of work into showing that Anakin hated being Darth Vader, but when the rubber hit the road, Ben doubled down on being Kylo Ren, and relished it.
It's always struck me as nonsensical and asinine. Why the f*** is Leia's only child venerating the helmet of the evil persona of her father who murdered her adopted family, but eventually repented? Does he not know Anakin repented? If so, how could he possibly not know that? And if he does know, again: why the f***?
And Abrams' apparent answer was: shut up, and clap for the thing you recognize - a Skywalker Dark Sider in a cape and helmet.
You guys do have good points, but even though it really doesn't make sense, it seems to pretty much standard that no matter what you do while under the influence of the Dark Side, is instantly forgiven the moment you turn back to the light.
Although now that I think about it, I can't remember, have we actually followed somebody who did the level of bad that Kylo and Vader did, who actually turned back to the Light and lived long enough for people to react? Pretty much anyone I can think of either only briefly fell to the Dark Side and didn't really do anything that bad, or died shortly after they turned back.
The only one I can think of is Ventress, but I honestly can't remember how much they've really dealt with just how much her past has or hasn't been forgiven.
I don't see instantly forgiven on screen.
Yeah i think we might be safely past the spoiler period on that one!
1) I assume you're talking about Force Ghosts, but that's a spiritual thing, not the result of a justice system for the living. The Catholic Church itself makes this distinction: they insist that, no matter how numerous and awful crimes someone commits, as long as they genuinely repent and beg the deity's forgiveness, the deity will do so, and invite them to a happy afterlife. However, the Church also respects earthly justice, and doesn't ask that convicted criminals be set free and forgiven by society without serving their proper sentences. Just because one is headed for Heaven itself doesn't mean one gets a literal Get Out of Jail Free card.
So, even if Ben was redeemed in the ways of the Force before/as he died, that wouldn't in any way necessarily let him off the hook for serving prison time if he'd survived, or was somehow resurrected.
2) I also assume you're talking about Vader going from a Sith to a Jedi Force Ghost in one evening, but that was from Luke's earthly point of view. For all we know from RotJ, Anakin's spirit had to meditate with remorse for centuries before it was allowed to make an appearance at the Endor bonfire. Force Ghost time doesn't necessarily equate to living person time.
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Comic book writers disagree.
I wasn't really talking about Force Ghosts, I was more talking about the fact Luke's attitude towards him and his redemption in Return of the Jedi.
"The Dark Side made me do it!" is a very common tactic by defense attorneys in the GFFA. Anakin would get off with a slap on the wrist.
"I was only following the Emperor's orders. But, now that I've been informed I was serving the Dark Side - whoops - I'd rather not rot in jail, so let's please let bygones be bygones, and allow me to live a quiet and peaceful life in freedom! It's the fair and compassionate thing to do!"
- Most of perpetrators of the actual Holocaust, when put on trial.
... Hell, we just got a movie about it, and not for the first time: