• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Could Star Trek V been saved?

Also, at random: When all the people are listing their culture's name for this place they've supposedly just found, St. John Talbot says "Eden." Uhm... no. In Judeo-Christian theology, Eden is not the place where you go to find God. It's not Heaven. And it's not at the center of the galaxy. It's a specific place on Earth where creation of mankind is supposed to have happened. Referring to Sha Ka Rhee as Eden makes no sense.
It is the place of human creation or origin.

SYBOK: Sha Ka Ree. ...'The Source'. ...'Heaven.' ...'Eden.' ...'Call it what you will. The Klingons call it 'Qui'Tu.' To the Romulans, it's 'Vorta Vor.' The Andorian word is, ...is unpronounceable. Still every culture shares this common dream of a place from which creation sprang. For us, that place will soon be a reality.

Sybok also is generalizing his idea of a creation myths to unite people with his cause.
 
Having just rewatched Star Trek V for the first time in a while, I found it not terrible. But it was a mess with a lot of ideas and characters thrown in for a movie that felt like an okay episode of the show.

But there ARE good and even cinematic ideas present. Do you think the premise and ideas present in Final Frontier could've been salvaged into a solid Trek film?
the plot idea is not worse then the one with the whales in IV which for me at least is the worst. not V
 
Just a random thought: There were a few things TFF did do right. I was re-watching a few scenes and they actually did a really good job of creating the illusion that Kirk was high up on the mountain. The shots filmed in the nearby parking lot with a fake wall actually hold up very well. Additionally, although Ferren's effects are generally lousy, I like the use of rear projection for the main viewscreen and the shuttle viewports, rather than the traditional blue screen effects. It makes it more realistic.
I really appreciated Shatner's desire for more realism in the sets. I remember that being something he mentioned in interviews well before the film came out. He wanted "real steel clanging doors" or something.

I just wish he wasn't the storymind and let others come up with the plot.
 
Just a random thought: There were a few things TFF did do right. I was re-watching a few scenes and they actually did a really good job of creating the illusion that Kirk was high up on the mountain. The shots filmed in the nearby parking lot with a fake wall actually hold up very well. Additionally, although Ferren's effects are generally lousy, I like the use of rear projection for the main viewscreen and the shuttle viewports, rather than the traditional blue screen effects. It makes it more realistic.

Also, at random: When all the people are listing their culture's name for this place they've supposedly just found, St. John Talbot says "Eden." Uhm... no. In Judeo-Christian theology, Eden is not the place where you go to find God. It's not Heaven. And it's not at the center of the galaxy. It's a specific place on Earth where creation of mankind is supposed to have happened. Referring to Sha Ka Rhee as Eden makes no sense.
Nimoy did the same the line in Star Trek VI referring to the expulsion from Paradise. Vaguely secular non-sectarian interpretation than anything from St. Thomas Aquinas.
 
It is the place of human creation or origin.

SYBOK: Sha Ka Ree. ...'The Source'. ...'Heaven.' ...'Eden.' ...'Call it what you will. The Klingons call it 'Qui'Tu.' To the Romulans, it's 'Vorta Vor.' The Andorian word is, ...is unpronounceable. Still every culture shares this common dream of a place from which creation sprang. For us, that place will soon be a reality.

Sybok also is generalizing his idea of a creation myths to unite people with his cause.
But the Eden of the Bible is a specific place, here on Earth. It's not some unknown spot out there in the galaxy. And it is also not where God lives.
 
The only good idea in TFF plot wise is giving Spock an estranged brother who embraced emotion and having him be the villain. It could have been a huge source of conflict for Spock, both testing his loyalty to Kirk and making him question whether his way or Sybok's way was right. As it stands Sybok is just depicted as a kook and doesn't even end up having that much screen time with Spock besides a couple scenes.

The plot in general was ill advised with the brain washing, search for god exc. So just take the idea I laid out above and make a completely different movie.

Love the camping opening though as everyone seems to.
 
The first time that I saw the film was on HBO in the spring/summer 1990. For some reason, although I had seen Star Trek IV in a theatre upon its release, I didn't for this one. I was twelve when it was released, so I didn't really have much of a choice in the matter, so to speak. Perhaps my parents read/saw negative reviews.

I remember that something didn't seem quite "right" about the film, and that opinion stands to this day. I have only watched the film once in its entirety; otherwise, bits and pieces . Every other film from 1-6, I've probably watched at least ten times. I hope that takes nothing away from anyone's enjoyment of the film. It simply isn't quite "Star Trek" to me. Then again, neither is "The Mystery of Edwin Drood" what I think of as a Dickens novel. Unlike my favorite novels of that author, I'll never read that again--and so be it. Thus, the notion that there is a subjective outlier isn't that far-fatched even amongst something that has held my interest for decades.
 
With today's tools, fans have forever to fix things in what amounts to be an infinite period of "post:'"
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Fixing the story is another thing entirely.

I would suggest "The Final Frontier" be used in much the same way as "The Menagerie" enveloped "The Cage," but here scenes would be used even more sparingly, with new footage, though not quite like Unification. It would perhaps be more like
The Caves of Androzani.

This movie is much closer to THE GOD THING than TMP (itself worthy of a mini-series) and it really *should* be the greatest Trek tale.

One of my favorite tropes are when main characters are hardly even seen:

"Proof Positive" from The Incredible Hulk.

"History of Doom" from Challenge of the SuperFriends.

The latter of the two...with a smattering of "Trial of a Time Lord" might be the best (if not the only) way to do this.

I always loved NBC's rather ethereal beginning of The Martian Chronicles--though here you may have a gathering of the Doud, Metrons, the Q, etc. They are quite concerned about the denizen of Sha Ka Ree.

The history of this last adventure is explained to the youngest member (Phaedra?) of the "ascended" ....with the more forgettable footage of the movie played on multiple mountains, clouds--the whole film flashes by...think the "heads" scene in ST: IV

The tale would no longer be "ST:V" but retconned into "the last round up" on camera.

In this production, you can linger on the most hard-hitting scenes of McCoy and his Father, the confrontation towards the end...some of the finest scenes in all of Trek free from the silliness and elevated, at the risk of having them crap marble as AMADEUS warned.

"Balance of Terror" and "Doomsday" are perfect as they are of course.
 
Last edited:
With today's tools, fans have forever to fix things in what amounts to be an infinite period of "post:'"
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

I saw the new effects earlier this AM as my feed popped it up.

Most visual changes are good, excellent for sure and I'm trying not to use the word "stellar" as that induces a pun, but the original's barrier did seem to look wider and more encompassing. Or specifically, rather, at 0:31 what happened to the big wide barrier that it's now a little lightning puff in the middle? 1:25 compares both and both are imperfect yet the original effect doesn't taper off into outer space black the way the new one does. The new f/x are still better overall, if not by a wide margin, and the new viewscreen shots do the scenes much justice.



Fixing the story is another thing entirely.

A difficult task, part of the problem stems from the demands of the time - the worst by far is demanding the movie be "funny" because the fishy whale story released in 1986 was so well-received. The "fish out of water" trope, especially when the fish are moved from another aquarium into ours, can be funny, but that doesn't translate to the same characters being in their aquarium. (Also note how TNG kept taking itself seriously for the most part, since fans did not care for the comedy takes of "The Outrageous Okona", one of the few that dared trying to be comedy and failing because Trek just didn't do comedy consistently well. Let parody shows do the comedy, especially if you want the main one to keep credible. Tangent on that, at least for TOS it was the late-60s and enough people were doping LSD to sit through the comedic-styled episodes in season 2, but a lot of it doesn't hold up. YMMV, of course but it's easy to see why TNG played it straight. )

I would suggest "The Final Frontier" be used in much the same way as "The Menagerie" enveloped "The Cage," but here scenes would be used even more sparingly, with new footage, though not quite like Unification. It would perhaps be more like
The Caves of Androzani.

The Caves of Androzani? So Kirk is laying on the floor about to die and he sees scenes from STV swirling around him?

This movie is much closer to THE GOD THING than TMP (itself worthy of a mini-series) and it really *should* be the greatest Trek tale.

^^this

The one problem is, even in 1989 or 1976, that it's a bit of an anticlimax. STV handled it fairly well (but still received flak, which - let's face it - would be inevitable.)

One of my favorite tropes are when main characters are hardly even seen:

"Proof Positive" from The Incredible Hulk.

"History of Doom" from Challenge of the SuperFriends.

The latter of the two...with a smattering of "Trial of a Time Lord" might be the best (if not the only) way to do this.

So Kirk is forced to sit through a sequence of events clipped from STV? That might work, but which clips are to be saved? All the ha-ha-bonk stuff or when the story actually got on with things after getting the levity out of its system? Sadly, this reduces the movie down to 30 or 45 minutes and there'd still be a small handful of narrative gaps. I'm not an editor, but watching the movie a few times and writing down possible timestamps to snip, snip then edit, then rewatch... couldn't do a worse job than the hacked-up colorized Doctor Who classics (where they removed some actually needed dialogue, among other things, especially 'The Daleks' as some of Ian's lines had the biggest messages to make, but before I digress into that any further...)

STV did improve, but turning the crew into doorknobs for cheap jokes is almost as crass as dumbing down the 'dults to make Wesley look smarter, which is the dumbest form of scripting...

I always loved NBC's rather ethereal beginning of The Martian Chronicles--though here you may have a gathering of the Doud, Metrons, the Q, etc. They are quite concerned about the denizen of Sha Ka Ree.

The history of this last adventure is explained to the youngest member (Phaedra?) of the "ascended" ....with the more forgettable footage of the movie played on multiple mountains, clouds--the whole film flashes by...think the "heads" scene in ST: IV

The tale would no longer be "ST:V" but retconned into "the last round up" on camera.

In this production, you can linger on the most hard-hitting scenes of McCoy and his Father, the confrontation towards the end...some of the finest scenes in all of Trek free from the silliness and elevated, at the risk of having them crap marble as AMADEUS warned.

"Balance of Terror" and "Doomsday" are perfect as they are of course.

Ah, so Q or Trelane or another floaty incorporeal life form is putting Kirk on trial? I dunno. It'd feel too much like a clip show and not a new adventure; even "The Cage" reused in "The Menagerie" felt like something new (and was because "The Cage" was a pilot never intended to be aired, until someone reminded the staff how expensive the pilots were and that they had to make up the difference later so they used two episode slots and chucked in the bulk of the 1964 pilot, while universe building, with no set of rules cemented yet (so we still see Spock uncharacteristically smiling at some vibrating plant leaves after being oddly bewildered in a case of universe-shaking).



To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
(Does touching the leaf make one happy? Is that a(n un)subtle drug reference? Maybe both of them are smiling due to being horny. I've no clue... also, if taken from the original 35mm negs, then it likely might be in real 4K... but film is 24FPS, not 48 unless put through a computer to generate new frames between the existing ones to artificially double it with...)
 
I saw the new effects earlier this AM as my feed popped it up.

Most visual changes are good, excellent for sure and I'm trying not to use the word "stellar" as that induces a pun, but the original's barrier did seem to look wider and more encompassing.
I would not use their actual fix-up as is…I’d want them to adapt to the latest image of the Milky Way here;
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
Not quite the Satan Pit
This would be a great crossover—Ten kills one of three faces, with Spock and the Saint of Killers from PREACHER getting the other two between the eyes. Still, the Thrice Dead God tries to escape through the Guardian, which allows Q and the others to shatter it.
TNG kept taking itself seriously for the most part, since fans did not care for the comedy takes of "The Outrageous Okona", one of the few that dared trying to be comedy and failing because Trek just didn't do comedy consistently well.
Agreed. I hated “A Piece of the Action” much more than Spock’s Brain.
The Caves of Androzani? So Kirk is laying on the floor about to die and he sees scenes from STV ?
No…you just have a bit of the House of Cards deal where Kirk’s image swirls as figures talk to the camera.
Ah, so Q or Trelane or another floaty incorporeal life form is putting Kirk on trial?
No…no new footage of Kirk here…here, the Guardian of Forever is senior to even Q.

The Guardian has warned them that the Demiurge might escape “sideways.”

Remember, the 1701-A torpedo only weakened the One’

Did the Bird of Prey actually destroy it?
One thing cross-overs do is turn rip-off into adaptation. Links across franchises are big universe syndrome in my view.

Kirk and Spock only exist here as afterimages….the Council of 12 or whatever mention their fates, McCoy leaving Starfleet as in The God Thing.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
(Does touching the leaf make one happy? Is that a(n un)subtle drug reference?
I think Spock was a bit lighter natured, Pike being more severe than his father early…then both lightened up…before the accident…and Spock shut down again.

This is why Spock all but went Rambo on Gary, coming down all gangsta’ with that phaser rifle, more gung-ho than Kirk himself.

He was determined not to lose *two* captains.

I always try to “work” with what I see. For example, there is an odd scene in the horror flick Texas Chainsaw where Leatherface seemed frightened after hitting Jerry in the head. Reactors on YouTube thought he escaped.

That just screams for a side story to me.

I just wish “The Masque of Mandragora” and EYES WIDE SHUT hadn’t used the cleric imagery—it would have been perfect here.

On a side note—the idea of a planet coming apart like Ceti Alpha V…that might actually happen…perhaps

 
Last edited:
If they had gone full-blown Gnosticism with God as Yaldabaoth and feeding off people's pain, with Sybok inadvertently ruining Yaldabaoth's plans by 'freeing' people in pain while Kirk inadvertently feeds him by holding onto his pain, we might have had a very compelling, if not the most compelling, Trek movie.
 
I liked most of the humor in V but regardless it seems pretty extreme and self-limiting to think that ST just shouldn't do humor outside of the one specific context of having time traveled to the past.

The movie without the humor, directly and seriously focusing on the trying to find God, is that worth the hijacking, and him turning out to be evil (but not the real God, that's open to further interpretation even if finding the Devil does imply it), probably would have still been strange and with love it or hate it reactions but a bit better than mostly hate its.

Again not sure why from same year Last Crusade was regarded as non-controversial fun success with both its religious story elements and its (slapstick) humor elements (a few since then have complained about some of the humor but not many have).
 
Well, Indiana Jones had already implied the existence of a higher power or at least supernatural forces with Raiders of the Lost Ark, so Last Crusade didn't really push the envelope further for that series.

Granted TOS had already gone with "Greek Gods were aliens!", but IIRC there was a sense that Our Heroes did ultimately believe there was a bona fide Christian God ("Bread and Circuses")...but that's different from actually going looking for God.

I'm not sure TFF was so much controversial in that regard though as that it was simply a poor story with suboptimal VFX. You kind of expect a story about Our Heroes finding God (whether or not it's the real deal) to have a bit more majesty to it. I'm surprised nobody said, "Why would God live on this craphole of a planet?"
 
Implied? After Raiders and Doom we were already well within "All religions are true" territory.
I mean, if someone wanted to make an argument that what occurred in those films was actually some form of advanced science, I wouldn't readily have a counterargument.
 
I have a real soft spot for ST:V.

If I had a magic wand, I would give it better special effects, make Sybok a friend from school rather than a brother, and ditch some of the broader comedy (like Scotty hitting his head).

“Seek God, find the devil” is a great Star Trek story, IMHO.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top