The Zhat Vash are from Picard and are an organization, not a person.
Why didn't the Zhat Vash target Data and Lore?
- Thread starter Candleicious Ghost
- Start date
Maybe they're like "James Bond" in Peter Seller's Casino Royale, where everyone who works for the Secret Service are all "James Bond"?
Juliana, however, was modelled on a specific human neural pattern.
I think your other point that Soong's original creations hadn't met a "critical level" is more important. No-one was really trying to mass produce - let only improve on - Soong's designs, until pre-PIC where the Federation cracked the ability to make the Mars synths (limited as those seemed to be compared to Data).
I have to disagree about Juliana. She was still a Soong-type android—indistinguishable from humans on the surface, sure, but fully mechanical underneath. She had a neural pattern based on a human, yes, but it was more about mimicking a specific person than creating a new, independent personality. Plus, she was designed with a limited lifespan from the start, which might’ve played into the Zhat Vash not targeting her—if they were even aware of her.
Soji and Dahj, on the other hand, are Coppelius-type androids created through “fractal neuronic cloning,” and I think that’s the real game-changer. I totally agree with what you said about there being a critical level of "evolution"—but they are the ones who are at that level. Juliana just wasn’t there yet.
Totally different note: I love how we can always nerd out like this in the forums—these kinds of deep dives and theories are the best.
I think because of the secretive nature of the Romulans, perhaps they did not know about Data. Anyone who did know, it would not take much convincing to get them to keep quiet.
Remember what the Romulan said in the first(?) season of Picard?
“Can you keep a secret? So can I.”
Or perhaps they did know…
I have a question: How could the Zhat Vash know what level of technological level the AI had achieved on every planet?
Answer: Q
Perhaps the Q monitor such progress to prevent another Borg-like species? Such a species, if they joined the Borg could take over every planet, in every sector, in every parallel world.
Then what would happen to Q’s favourite pet, Picard?
Or perhaps the Q Continium is worried that the Borg could assimilate the Q before they achieved their ascension to become Q?
Remember what the Romulan said in the first(?) season of Picard?
“Can you keep a secret? So can I.”
Or perhaps they did know…
I have a question: How could the Zhat Vash know what level of technological level the AI had achieved on every planet?
Answer: Q
Perhaps the Q monitor such progress to prevent another Borg-like species? Such a species, if they joined the Borg could take over every planet, in every sector, in every parallel world.
Then what would happen to Q’s favourite pet, Picard?
Or perhaps the Q Continium is worried that the Borg could assimilate the Q before they achieved their ascension to become Q?
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Not zhat Vash, zhe ozher Vash!
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Can we all just pretend S1 and 2 of Picard (especially S2) never existed?
Nah, just Season 3. Yeeesh, what a dumpster fire.
I think the main reason Data & Lore were safe were for several major reasons:
1) Data was generally in Federation Space and/or on a StarFleet StarShip, he's a moving target, he also has plot armor to some degree
2) Lore went missing pretty quickly and randomly showed up from time to time, otherwise he's gone and not really around.
3) Data & Lore didn't know how to procreate more Soong-Type Androids by building more of their own kind.
Unique one-offs that are Sentient AI w/o the ability to manufacture more of their kind is generally not a threat.
Once they figure out how to manufacture more enmasse, then it becomes an issue.
As long as Organic Creators hold the key to manufacturing more, that's the main issue.
1) Data was generally in Federation Space and/or on a StarFleet StarShip, he's a moving target, he also has plot armor to some degree
2) Lore went missing pretty quickly and randomly showed up from time to time, otherwise he's gone and not really around.
3) Data & Lore didn't know how to procreate more Soong-Type Androids by building more of their own kind.
Unique one-offs that are Sentient AI w/o the ability to manufacture more of their kind is generally not a threat.
Once they figure out how to manufacture more enmasse, then it becomes an issue.
As long as Organic Creators hold the key to manufacturing more, that's the main issue.
Not to get off topic but are you saying you liked S2 more than 3? If so you gotta explain that one to me!
Season three is just that bad. A thin plot strung together by "remember when." Needless and meaningless callbacks. New characters that border on parodies of older better characters. Tropes that were old when Star Trek was young. All the sins of DISCO and PIC1&2 but given a pass because "oh look it's the TNG cast and some old guest stars"
Yeah Iiked Season 2 slightly more. It at least tried to be something other than nostalgia bait.
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Season 2 at least had a story to tell. It might not have been a particularly good story, but it was still a story. Season 3 didn't bother with a story since it knew being the TNG reunion was the selling point and the reason people would be tuning in.
See it's interesting, although I agree S2 was definitely trying to tell a new story, I think it completely trashed/misused legacy characters like Q and Guinan and almost completely ignored canon. Bait and switch making Q seem to be central in the early S2 promotes with the Queen playing card and then barely showing up, killing him? Come on. Guinan? What was even that all about? Random Wesley encounter (was the S1 or 2, it all blends together). None of S1-3 really had great stories to me, but I don't know as a fan of TNG since I was a little kid during the original run, how could I not get a little choked up seeing the D (mostly) again, its fully and painstakingly recreated bridge, its exit from the fleet museum backed by an amazing score, the pop goes the weasel scene, etc.? I don't know, I ate it up. Knowing it's the end of the road for those characters, I'd rather that than an attempt to tell a new (bad) story a la S2. To me it was the perfect sendoff (aside from "All Good Things" of course) and an actual love letter to the fans, not Enterprise "love letter".
That said I wish they'd have followed through the changeling story more than they did in S3. It went Borg again pretty quickly and was jarring. The mostly season-long baddie suddenly became effectively a nullity.
Anyway, my $0.05.
That said I wish they'd have followed through the changeling story more than they did in S3. It went Borg again pretty quickly and was jarring. The mostly season-long baddie suddenly became effectively a nullity.
Anyway, my $0.05.
The Zhat Vash was just a braindead idea. The writers of Picard went for the "rule of cool", an ultra-secret organization within a secret organization. WOW!
They weren't thinking about the wider implications.
Why stop at Data and Lore?
Why not target all sufficiently advanced computers of the Federation (or other highly developed races in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant) that can create sentient AIs (like the Enterprise-D computer core that created James Moriarty)? Or why not target all the cybernetic and positronic researchers and holo-engineers and their labs?
The writers didn't think about the reach of the Zhat Vash. What good is it to stop advanced computer technology and AI research in their immediate surroundings (Alpha and Beta Quadrant) but not in other parts of the galaxy? The Zhat Vash couldn't reach races in the Delta or Gamma Quadrant to stop their advanced computer technology and AI research.
Oh I know..... There were races in the Delta quadrant alone that were light years more advanced with AI than Earth which would have made the Zhat Vash shit their pants.
Season 3 had a fantastic story that, like the best of Trek, addressed issues that are very pertinent to our real world today, and also had a secondary message that just because someone is over the age of 35 doesn't mean that they are useless or to be ignored. Seasons 1 was absolutely awful, season 2 was mediocre, but season 3 had a tremendous story.
It was a connect the dots puzzle not a story.
I 100% disagree.
