Why Didn't Harry Get Promoted?

[Farscape One]

Lieutenant to Captain.


"The feels" have dominated ranks in Trek for a while now. The idea of being a captain means more than reasonable advancement. People can turn down rank at any time and opt to not advance their career because of their feels. Being a captain is the only place you can really make a difference so don't leave the bridge.

This is not a new phenomenon in Star Trek. Bring a captain is great and being an admiral is horrible. If that isn't about the feels I don't know what is.

Lt. to Captain in one shot is still a ridiculous and stupid move, particularly for such a ship.

Plus, he went from cadet to Lt. immediately... without even finishing the Academy. Just stupid.

And Kirk was in the middle of a disciplinary hearing and quite likely would have been drummed out of the Academy, which makes all of what he was given even more stupid.

So yes... within the same mission, he went from cadet to captain. Utter nonsense and stupidity of that movie. (One of many.)

 

[Lynx]

Lieutenant to Captain.


"The feels" have dominated ranks in Trek for a while now. The idea of being a captain means more than reasonable advancement. People can turn down rank at any time and opt to not advance their career because of their feels. Being a captain is the only place you can really make a difference so don't leave the bridge.

This is not a new phenomenon in Star Trek. Bring a captain is great and being an admiral is horrible. If that isn't about the feels I don't know what is.

But sometimes that is good.

Just look at Picard and Janeway.

Picard remained captain, stayed at the ship, could do what he really wanted to do and were still useful in stories and books.

Janeway was placed behind a desk and faded as a character.

Sometimes fiction has to be different than "real life" in order to create good stories and keep the characters good.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

If that "Deviations" comic is interested in an idea, what if Kelvinverse Kirk washed out like R.M. Merik did in the prime universe and wound up on Kelvinverse 892-IV?

 

[fireproof78]

Lt. to Captain in one shot is still a ridiculous and stupid move, particularly for such a ship.

Plus, he went from cadet to Lt. immediately... without even finishing the Academy. Just stupid.

And Kirk was in the middle of a disciplinary hearing and quite likely would have been drummed out of the Academy, which makes all of what he was given even more stupid.

Of course, which is why he lost command in the next film. Though, I wouldn't use the term stupid. It was clear that nepotism was at play with Pike. I also don't think he would have been drummed out, but have to retake a year. Despite cheating, he had done it three times voluntarily.

But, that's why I like Into Darkness so much. Pike realizes his error and Kirk must actually face his Kobayashi Maru, like his dad did. Love that movie for Kirk alone every time I think about his arc.

But sometimes that is good.

Sure but that's not the lesson taught. Stay were you feel good is the lesson and I disagree with it.

Sometimes fiction has to be different than "real life" in order to create good stories and keep the characters good.

Sometimes. In this case it isn't one of those times.

 

[Oddish]

Being a captain is the only place you can really make a difference so don't leave the bridge.

Unless you're William T. "ambition of a limp waffle" Riker, in which case you spend 15 years as first officer instead.

And technically, DS9 did have an Ensign in their main cast... for 3 episodes. Ezri got her pip at the end of "AFTERIMAGE".

Well if we're being technical, it was two, because Ezri didn't show up until the last few seconds of "Image in the Sand".

But the point remains valid. If TNG's main cast was ensign-free for half its episodes, and DS9's was ensignless for over 98% of its run... yeah, VOY could have done 1-1/2 seasons: Harry get promoted in "Night". Tom gets busted, fills the ensign slot ten episodes later, gets re-promoted at the end of S6. The show is only ensign-free for part of S5, and all of S7. And they could even give Neelix or Seven a uniform at that late date.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Worf was promoted to LCDR in "Generations". He simply moved from the security division to the command division on DS9, hence the red uniform.

And it's probably mostly true in the IRL military. On an actual USN ship in Voyager's position, no one would have gotten promoted unless someone died. But Starfleet is not the IRL military, and people on Voyager were promoted.

40 to 60 people died on Equinox, before making contact with Voyager.

On one hand there would have been plenty of open positions that Harry could have just seized had he the balls of an adult with any gumption, on the other hand, any department with a vacant head, was probably a department with a vacant everything else as well, which would probably require demotion if less was expected of him.

Kane on NuBSG mixed the crews immediately, and promoted Starbuck too.

 

[Oddish]

40 to 60 people died on Equinox, before making contact with Voyager.

On one hand there would have been plenty of open positions that Harry could have just seized had he the balls of an adult with any gumption, on the other hand, any department with a vacant head, was probably a department with a vacant everything else as well, which would probably require demotion if less was expected of him.

Assuming that the Equinox senior staff was in prison for mass murder, yes. I expect Chakotay would have gotten a promotion to captain, and since Harry's their designated guy for building and repair, he'd likely be Chakotay's acting first. And since Chakotay promotes people, Harry'd have that hollow pip in short order.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

While it's true position doesn't always require a higher rank to be in it, there are cases where a somewhat lower rank than we usually see (or believe should be) in a given position is acceptable.

True, though no more than one or at most two levels would be pretty unusual outside of explicitly temporary appointments in an emergency.

Like Sisko being appointed Chief of Earth Security in "HOMEFRONT"/"PARADISE LOST". While a captain is NOT a low rank at all, it is likely lower for that position than we would expect to see.

Given that he was reporting to a three-pip Admiral and the only other example of someone who could be in that role who we see canonically is a Commodore, it's fairly reasonable for an acting appointment (presumably if it had been made long-term he would have been promoted to Commodore).

 

[Oddish]

Sisko should have started as a captain and then been upped to Commodore. Then it would have made more sense that he was ordering around a whole fleet.

 

[Farscape One]

Sisko should have started as a captain and then been upped to Commodore. Then it would have made more sense that he was ordering around a whole fleet.

Ross' last adjutant was also a captain. ("BEHIND THE LINES", he mentions Bennett's promotion came through and he took over her slot.) So rank wise, he's on par being adjutant.

Sisko was given command of the various fleets by Ross. (Operation Return, both Chin'toka attacks.)

He might have been given a field promotion to Admiral, but his actions in "RAPTURE" might have been a roadblock from him getting it. That happened less than a year before "BEHIND THE LINES".

I don't really mind him staying as captain during the war.

(Also, Picard took command of the fleet in FIRST CONTACT after seeing the Admiral's ship was destroyed. So there is precedent for a captain to lead a fleet.)

 

[DonIago]

(Also, Picard took command of the fleet in FIRST CONTACT after seeing the Admiral's ship was destroyed. So there is precedent for a captain to lead a fleet.)

There wasn't really anyone around in a position to promote him, or the time to do so, at the time.

 

[Farscape One]

There wasn't really anyone around in a position to promote him, or the time to do so, at the time.

True. And they all likely followed him because they knew of his previous Borg experience.

Still felt it was worth noting.

 

[Lynx]

Of course, which is why he lost command in the next film. Though, I wouldn't use the term stupid. It was clear that nepotism was at play with Pike. I also don't think he would have been drummed out, but have to retake a year. Despite cheating, he had done it three times voluntarily.

But, that's why I like Into Darkness so much. Pike realizes his error and Kirk must actually face his Kobayashi Maru, like his dad did. Love that movie for Kirk alone every time I think about his arc.


Sure but that's not the lesson taught. Stay were you feel good is the lesson and I disagree with it.

Sometimes. In this case it isn't one of those times.

"Stay where you feel good" isn't bad. The heart and mind are more important than career and/or money.

And in tuios case it is because we can keep a good character for mor exciting episodes and books insetad of wasting the character by placing him/her at a desk and outside the action.

How popular and well-known would Kirk have been if they had dumped him behind a desk?

 

[fireproof78]

"Stay where you feel good" isn't bad. The heart and mind are more important than career and/or money.

Stay where you feel good =/= career or money. That's absurdity on its face.

How popular and well-known would Kirk have been if they had dumped him behind a desk?

False equivalency.

And in tuios case it is because we can keep a good character for mor exciting episodes and books insetad of wasting the character by placing him/her at a desk and outside the action.

And it fails.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

(Also, Picard took command of the fleet in FIRST CONTACT after seeing the Admiral's ship was destroyed. So there is precedent for a captain to lead a fleet.)

Well, we have:

Regulation 191 (Article 14): In a combat situation involving more than one ship, command fell to the vessel with tactical superiority, should there not be a higher ranking officer present.

Given that Picard also has decades of experience as a commanding officer and has been previously appointed as a fleet captain/commodore commanding a taskforce by flag officers in the past, there seems to be implicit standing authority there.

 

[Oddish]

Given that Picard also has decades of experience as a commanding officer and has been previously appointed as a fleet captain/commodore commanding a taskforce by flag officers in the past, there seems to be implicit standing authority there.

And given that the Enterprise E was undamaged, and that it had state of the art tactical systems (including full spreads of quantum torpedoes), it was probably the most formidable vessel present.

 

[suarezguy]

Look at Nog: he got a field promotion to ensign after only 2 years as a cadet. Less than 2 years after that, he made it to Lt. j.g.

A lot of people prefer that but a lot of people also don't take it seriously, think that was the writers being generous/promoting him multiple times was them being self-promoting to themselves and even those who do like it do admit well it was wartime situation advancements are/should be faster then given that. And OTOH that show despite having some promotions didn't really have likelihood or much possibility of characters being reassigned to elsewhere even though that's often thought of as also associated with wartime situation.

 

[Farscape One]

A lot of people prefer that but a lot of people also don't take it seriously, think that was the writers being generous/promoting him multiple times was them being self-promoting to themselves and even those who do like it do admit well it was wartime situation advancements are/should be faster then given that. And OTOH that show despite having some promotions didn't really have likelihood or much possibility of characters being reassigned to elsewhere even though that's often thought of as also associated with wartime situation.

Nog's promotion to Lt. in under two years during a war can be taken far more seriously than Kim's lack of a promotion in 7 years of good service.

 

[fireproof78]

Nog's promotion to Lt. in under two years during a war can be taken far more seriously than Kim's lack of a promotion in 7 years of good service.

This. Kim's a department head. Should be lieutenant j.g. at the least.

 

[Oddish]

A lot of people prefer that but a lot of people also don't take it seriously, think that was the writers being generous/promoting him multiple times was them being self-promoting to themselves and even those who do like it do admit well it was wartime situation advancements are/should be faster then given that. And OTOH that show despite having some promotions didn't really have likelihood or much possibility of characters being reassigned to elsewhere even though that's often thought of as also associated with wartime situation.

Nog's rapid promotion to ensign was the result of the Federation being at war and Starfleet needing to crew its ships. A lot of cadets probably had two- or three-year Academy careers during the Dominion war. And his promotion to lieutenant after two years is also fine. Data said that three years is typical, but Nog was a very capable officer and he saw combat. As I said, If the showrunners on Voyager had needed guidance on who and how to promote, DS9's promotions were impeccable.

- Sisko was a commander for between three and six years. We don't know what rank he held at Utopia Planitia. His promotion to captain occured about when it should.
- Kira was a major (LCDR equivalent) for six years. Considering that she was a resistance fighter previously and there was a learning curve to being a soldier, that works. In S7, she was considered equivalent to a Commander, hence her Starfleet rank.
- Bashir was probably an ensign throughout medical school and routinely promoted to LTJG as a practicing physician.
- Dax was 28, so maybe on the young side for a full lieutenant. But it's probably routine for Joined Trill to be promoted earlier than normal, due to their vastly enhanced life experience. This applies to Ezri making LTJG before her scheduled promotion date (she was actually Jake's age).
- Worf was not promoted on DS9... and he shouldn't have been. He was freshly promoted to LCDR, and was not due. He makes captain later on.
- And as I said, Nog's promotions were not out of thr ordinary for a distinguished wartime career.