Shinzon's DNA in light of Picard show revelations

[Yistaan]

We don't know exactly when Picard had his DNA stolen to create Shinzon. However, presumably it was some time before Picard was assimilated to become Locutus.

We know that Picard's DNA was altered to turn him into a Borg transmitter or whatever, and that this gave him irumodic syndrome and this went undetected until the Picard show. Strangely enough, none of the medical care he received post-assimilation caught this nor did the transporters (which are said to imprint common human DNA to save power onto all humans, what the changelings sabotaged to infect people with Borg DNA) seemingly overwrite Picard's Borg DNA with the common human DNA template that exists in transporters all the times he was transported after Best of Both Worlds.

Yet if Shinzon was cloned from Picard's original DNA, why didn't Dr. Crusher notice the difference in Shinzon's DNA from Picard's Borg-altered DNA immediately when she compared them? A Starfleet medical computer should catch something like that.

Thoughts?

 

[Dukhat]

We know that Picard's DNA was altered to turn him into a Borg transmitter or whatever, and that this gave him irumodic syndrome and this went undetected until the Picard show.

I don't recall that being the reason for his Irumodic syndrome, but then again that show sucked balls so I might not have been paying as much attention to stuff like that than I normally would have.

 

[Yistaan]

I don't recall that being the reason for his Irumodic syndrome, but then again that show sucked balls so I might not have been paying as much attention to stuff like that than I normally would have.

Not only was it the reason for his irumodic syndrome, in retrospect it seems that the point of "All Good Things" (an event entirely created by Q sending Picard around in time to create an anomaly and then fix said anomaly) was to create Jack Crusher (at the cost of countless lives lost on Frontier Day that would otherwise not have happened).

AGT showed us that Picard's irumodic syndrome was never identified as the Borg infection it was and he would've died alone in his vineyard despite marrying Beverly. When Q changed that by showing Picard the AGT future, ironically despite Picard and Crusher not marrying they end up having a kid. Furthermore the post-credits scene of Picard showed that Q had plans for Jack.

 

[Dukhat]

Can you post the relevant lines where it’s stated that he got the Irumodic syndrome from being Locutus?

 

[Yistaan]

Can you post the relevant lines where it’s stated that he got the Irumodic syndrome from being Locutus?

It gave him what seemingly was irumodic syndrome but wasn't, look at the false positives chapter of this Memory Alpha article: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Irumodic_Syndrome

 

[Unionized Elf]

We don't know exactly when Picard had his DNA stolen to create Shinzon.

Since Shinzon was aging naturally, and assuming he's of equivalent age to Tom Hardy at the time, the Romulans would have likely obtained their DNA sample of Picard sometime in the 2350s.

Yet if Shinzon was cloned from Picard's original DNA, why didn't Dr. Crusher notice the difference in Shinzon's DNA from Picard's Borg-altered DNA immediately when she compared them? A Starfleet medical computer should catch something like that.

Since Crusher scanned Shinzon at a point when his DNA was already beginning to break down, any deviations would have been attributed to that. Plus Shinzon was never a 1:1 copy of Picard anyway, given the Romulans had his DNA coded to rapidly age to Picard's actual age at some point. It's because the aging protocol was never activated that his DNA began breaking down. Again, any discrepancies would have been attributed to that.

I don't recall that being the reason for his Irumodic syndrome, but then again that show sucked balls so I might not have been paying as much attention to stuff like that than I normally would have.

I don't remember the specifics of what episode or what scene, but yes, the third season did state that Picard's Irumodic Syndrome was a result of his Borg assimilation. Yes, it's unbelievably stupid, but so's that entire season.

 

[Yistaan]

Crusher: The more I studied his DNA the more confusing it got. Finally I could only come to one conclusion. ...Shinzon was created with temporal RNA sequencing. He was designed so that at a certain point, his aging process could be accelerated to reach your age more quickly. He was going to need to skip thirty years of his life, but when the temporal sequencing wasn't activated his cellular structure started breaking down. ...He's dying.

Picard: Dying? ...Can anything be done for him?

Crusher: Nothing except a complete transfusion from the only donor with compatible DNA. ...You.

It's not clear what Crusher means by "confusing" because at the end, DNA is really just a very, very, very long listing of 4 letters, A, G, T, and C. Shinzon's "list" either matches Picard's or it doesn't. That they were able to determine that he was a clone seems to indicate that his DNA "list" was an exact match, period.

That being said, there is the decay plot point but they also mention temporal RNA sequencing and RNA isn't DNA. But then Crusher ALSO says that Shinzon's DNA is "confusing".

So I SUPPOSE there's wiggle room for that decay to coverup the DNA discrepancies but honestly I would assume Crusher and the Enterprise computers would be able to tell the difference between a general cellular degradation and a clear cut discrepancy from Shinzon's DNA and Picard's DNA. But I guess they can't.

Hmm the ironic thing might be that even if Shinzon got that blood transfusion from Picard, it might not have worked because Picard's DNA is no longer an exact match to Shinzon's and then both Picard would've been dead and Shinzon would've died anyway.

 

[Unionized Elf]

honestly I would assume Crusher and the Enterprise computers would be able to tell the difference

Why? This isn't even the only time Starfleet medical computers have failed to miss the completely obvious. Ash Tyler was in Disco's sickbay three times and they somehow missed that his blood pressure and heartrate were completely wrong for human standards. And what finally gave him away the fourth time was a mysterious scar on his bones. In light of that, I'm not at all shocked that one scan of someone who was scanned once didn't get that in-depth an analysis after it was learned he was dying and indeed he was dead within a day afterwards.

 

[Christopher]

Since Shinzon was aging naturally, and assuming he's of equivalent age to Tom Hardy at the time, the Romulans would have likely obtained their DNA sample of Picard sometime in the 2350s.

Yes. I've seen people question why Picard would've had his DNA sampled before he became the Enterprise captain, assuming that he wasn't famous yet, but people forget that the reason he was made captain of the Starfleet "flagship" in the first place was because he was already a legendary explorer because of his 22 years aboard the Stargazer. The Stargazer was lost in 2355, so he could've been sampled then, or possibly even earlier.


As for the Irumodic thing, one thing Picard season 3 got wrong was that "All Good Things..." didn't say Picard was bound to get Irumodic Syndrome, but that he had a neurological anomaly that could potentially lead to multiple conditions including that one, or to none at all.

 

[Yistaan]

Picard show itself is contradictory about his health across episodes. Dr. Benayoun said in Picard Season 1 that Picard had an anomaly in his brain that could lead to irumodic syndrome but cleared him for duty anyway, VERY different from Picard outright having irumodic syndrome period. Then by the end of the season Picard is dead of this anomaly.

Suddenly in Picard Season 3 he's talking with Jack and saying that he had irumodic syndrome for 20 years, even though none of the TNG movies indicated this (you think it would've been mentioned in, say, Insurrection if Picard was looking for a cure from constant nightmares and irumodic syndrome for example)

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Yes. I've seen people question why Picard would've had his DNA sampled before he became the Enterprise captain, assuming that he wasn't famous yet, but people forget that the reason he was made captain of the Starfleet "flagship" in the first place was because he was already a legendary explorer because of his 22 years aboard the Stargazer. The Stargazer was lost in 2355, so he could've been sampled then, or possibly even earlier.

Maybe Future Guy (possibly a Romulan) left notes on Picard?

 

[Christopher]

Maybe Future Guy (possibly a Romulan) left notes on Picard?

Please read my entire paragraph again. It explains why there's no need to justify it.

 

[Yistaan]

After Romulus is destroyed a remote Romulan lab releases their other evil clones of Starfleet captains into the wild as revenge. They've got young clones of Archer, Pike, Kirk, Sisko, Janeway, and Burnham (even though Burnham wasn't actually a captain when she disappeared). Clone Archer and Clone Janeway start torturing some victims while clone Pike does his hair again. Clone Kirk talks Data to death while clone Sisko kills some Federation Councilors in the pale moonlight. Clone Burnham just cries all the time.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Star Trek: Nemesis was a terrible movie and an unforgivable finale to the TNG films. The fact that about two decades later they are using a TV series to try and fix some of the stupidity of that film, is telling.

If it wasn't for that film, think of the crap that could have been put aside and what could have been and what could have been built upon. Alas.

 

[Qonundrum]

I don't recall that being the reason for his Irumodic syndrome,

I always took it as Q playing another game with Picard in "All Good Things". Even Beverly found that the mild defect in his parietal lobe was susceptible to various disorders, but not meaning he'd actually end up getting it (which allows the possibility of getting it now laid in groundwork, Q wouldn't have made such a tiny tweak just to bother Beverly with.)

Can you post the relevant lines where it’s stated that he got the Irumodic syndrome from being Locutus?

It's possible Picard got the defect from the Borg alterations, but why wouldn't they notice it when de-Borgifying the captain? It'd be easy enough to point out even in AGT... but she makes it sound like it's always been there and they had to do a level 4-zillion diagnostic to even see it, since - surely - while deborgifying, they'd do a level 4 or level 8675309 scan or whatever to get at the needed level of detail to safely remove the components?

but then again that show sucked balls so I might not have been paying as much attention to stuff like that than I normally would have.

It's just different. Not my thing (in the 24th century with replicators and everything else, I couldn't buy into Raffi's situation as shown in season 1 but season 3 allows a backdoor way to buy into it, if one wanted.)

 

[Qonundrum]

Star Trek: Nemesis was a terrible movie and an unforgivable finale to the TNG films. The fact that about two decades later they are using a TV series to try and fix some of the stupidity of that film, is telling.

If it wasn't for that film, think of the crap that could have been put aside and what could have been and what could have been built upon. Alas.

PIC/3 definitely feels like it's trying to make lemonade out of the 1994-2002 TNG films, which IMHO were lemons. (Acting was good to great but some of the plotting didn't add up. You don't, for one example, say "don't hit the deflector shield as it has antiprotons and hitting it will blow up half the ship" and then 2 seconds later fire a ginormous gun (which emits protons needed to trigger the antiprotons, whee!) right at it and, phew, not miss whatsoever (But nobody needed Mr. Plinkett to notice such a gaping flaw while shoveling popcorn into one's mouth while watching in 1996 as it was just as noticeable then, only on a 50' screen instead of 50" one where it'd be more noticeable, or less depending on what you're looking at. Either way, the scale of the dish vs bridge interior was also off, but that's a needless nitpick for another day...)

Digression aside, PIC/3 did give some backdoor means to give those flicks some weight to them and succeeded IMHO. And, yeah, after NEM, TNG definitely needed a deserving finale. NEM was pretty bad, mostly for being cluttered with too many unneeded plotting issues (Picard clone Shinzon being a failed experiment and locked up on the second class planet to quietly build the super-dee-duper ship there with nobody noticing energy signatures being by far the worst, the Remans are less than pointless, and Shinzon could be another Romulan trying to take over and go from there, which would have worked a lot better for that alone...).

Then again, if PIC/3 moved forward with a more concentrated plot and avoiding the referencing, it could have been even better. But we'd then miss out on some of the best damage control of all time, that of dealing with the saucer after GEN in a way that it would not be found by the locals (prime directive), ditto for getting Kirk Carcass out of there too, as well as proving Geordi (the nerd archetype) would be the one most likely to repatriate the ship out of love for it. 'tis great stuff. Even if episode 10 makes the Millenium Falcon look unwieldly in space by comparison as the "D" always was meant to look graceful in turns and not like a caffeinated coyote chasing a giant road runner, beep-beep...

 

[Will_Carter]

Yet if Shinzon was cloned from Picard's original DNA, why didn't Dr. Crusher notice the difference in Shinzon's DNA from Picard's Borg-altered DNA immediately when she compared them? A Starfleet medical computer should catch something like that.

It could be she simply assumed romulan tampering would be the cause of Shinzon's diffrences and didn't have time to look further.

 

[Christopher]

We know that Picard's DNA was altered to turn him into a Borg transmitter or whatever, and that this gave him irumodic syndrome and this went undetected until the Picard show. Strangely enough, none of the medical care he received post-assimilation caught this nor did the transporters (which are said to imprint common human DNA to save power onto all humans, what the changelings sabotaged to infect people with Borg DNA) seemingly overwrite Picard's Borg DNA with the common human DNA template that exists in transporters all the times he was transported after Best of Both Worlds.

Yet if Shinzon was cloned from Picard's original DNA, why didn't Dr. Crusher notice the difference in Shinzon's DNA from Picard's Borg-altered DNA immediately when she compared them? A Starfleet medical computer should catch something like that.

Well, it's not like a structural defect in how the brain is assembled would be explicitly coded in the DNA, any more than an error in how a building crew assembles a house would be drawn into the blueprints. A structural defect would be a function of how the brain grows, on an entirely different level of organization than the fundamental genetic coding.

I was going to say that if PIC season 3 attributed the defect to Borg DNA tampering, that made no sense, for the above reason. But then I realized it could make sense if you assume that the tampering caused new growth in his neural net that altered what was there before. It stands to reason that that kind of forced alteration might cause some unintended structural damage, which might linger even after Picard's DNA was changed back, since it stands to reason that such major alterations would leave some kind of scars even after they were undone. If a complex electrical system were rewired and then put back to its original configuration, it's possible that the restoration team might make a small mistake or miss a stray connection in the process. An error in how the instructions are followed would not be discovered by reading the instructions, and DNA is just the instructions.

And Crusher said in "All Good Things..." that it was "the kind of defect that would only show up on a level four neurographic scan." It was too subtle to show up in normal scans, and a transporter wouldn't recognize it as a medical defect, just as part of the pattern it was programmed to reassemble precisely.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Yes. I've seen people question why Picard would've had his DNA sampled before he became the Enterprise captain, assuming that he wasn't famous yet, but people forget that the reason he was made captain of the Starfleet "flagship" in the first place was because he was already a legendary explorer because of his 22 years aboard the Stargazer. The Stargazer was lost in 2355, so he could've been sampled then, or possibly even earlier.

I've long seen two possibilities here.

One, the Romulans took DNA samples of literally hundreds of Starfleet captains. Shinzon just happened to be one of the "lucky" survivors when the project was canned.

Two, the alternate timeline Tasha Yar put Picard on the Romulans' radar when they debriefed her in 2344, and they targeted Picard specifically. They may not have realized that Tasha came from a future that wasn't going to come to pass; all they knew is that in the 2360s someone named Jean-Luc Picard would be in command of one of Starfleet's most powerful ships.

Of course, it can be a little bit of both. The Romulans had hundreds of clones of everyone from Jean-Luc Picard and Robert DeSoto to Edward Jellico and Benjamin Sisko, with a special emphasis on Jean-Luc Picard because they had an inkling he would be special.

 

[Christopher]

One, the Romulans took DNA samples of literally hundreds of Starfleet captains. Shinzon just happened to be one of the "lucky" survivors when the project was canned.

I think this is the most likely possibility, though I wouldn't go so far as "hundreds." As I said, Picard was hardly a nobody at the time -- according to the series bible, he was already a "Starfleet legend" from his long command of the Stargazer. There's no need to invoke future knowledge -- just knowledge of his past accomplishments, his status as one of Starfleet's most accomplished veteran commanders, would've made him one of the Romulans' prime targets, for exactly the same reason that it made him a prime candidate to command the Enterprise-D.