I’ve so far been pretty disappointed with Marla in the Khan-cast but I have enjoyed all the moments where she shows off the varied skills of a Starfleet officer.
What is your opinion of season 3 as a whole?
- Thread starter Rahul
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Yes, exactly. I'm hoping and expecting that they won't kill La'an. Especially not to motivate Spock - he has so much motivation to be more logical which they started in Season 1 with T'Pring and his Vulcan heritage. I'm sure that they'll be wary about killing anyone in case they get Year One. They must want these characters available as potential guest stars. We saw in the end of Season 1 that in the alternative timeline where Pike lives that La'an transfers to be first officer of the Farragut. She was fine, Spock still became logical and La'an seems very happy (she did hug Pike). I'd like her to get promoted and Una would be a perfect captain for her. Oregas would be a great test pilot although didn't she come from that background? Or as I mixing her up with Pike? She does seem a little bored unless she's doing something crazy.
That's funny. I'm not sure if others took this implication but I really noted in that episode that he didn't seem to know Chapel and he knew everyone else. I understood this to imply that she wouldn't make a significant scientific contribution. If so, then that would be the real thing to break her. I would have really liked to see them follow up on the implications of what Boimler said to her and how it shaped her choices. Korby was clearly a leading scientist in the Federation and a wonderful choice to advance your career. I would have like to see her feeling the weight of her career not working out and Spock not working out. It would be a strong explanation for Korby. It would contexualise the super fast romance and her feelings for Spock many years later if she threw herself into a whirlwind romance because she felt that she had to make it work for her career and future happiness. Breaking her a bit would be a good storyline.
Haha, well Chapel seemed to think they were very compatible in TOS! Season 2 set up that Chapel wasn't really compatible with relationships in general as she had untreated PTSD and Boimler sealed the deal on this one. The sudden relationship with Korby showed a disconnect with Season 1 and 2 that they didn't explain. Having far too much faith in the writers, I hope that they'll explore the ways that she's actually not really compatible with Korby either in Season 4. She's star struck and it's a whirlwind romance but just like La'an, she doesn't seem that happy. She wasn't thrilled to be told by Korby that he had better things to do than spend time with her and she should hold his bag while he did the real exploring! It would be really interested to see them establish that she might have only managed to stay engaged to Korby so long because he disappeared! She actually only sees him a few times in Season 3 - they don't genuinely know each other that well.
I suspect that by Season 5 Spock won't be compatible with anyone either as he transitions towards a deeply logical Spock. Timing is definitely a problem from these two.
Batel is a super chick in the last episode.And before people bring up Q. I do not think it is fair or right to equate Q super powers to Batel.
I think Laan will die, it will be the logical choice. they want to fit tos as much as possible so it may seem kind of off if there was a khan relative alive.
killing laan will be the best option, the snw crew can mourn her and move on while never mentioning her again. that is more plausible than if she remained alive but went to a different ship.
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yes I think they would have, it was even there in season 1 that they were never compatible. it was hinted in spock amok, he was more compatible with tpring the only thing is, their marriage was arranged so we cannot say love....real love was there.
the error they made with spock/chapel is that they did not even allow them to date for a while before they realize they were not compatible. they should have given them a while to date and even the few times we saw them together like the chess scenes, they were on different pages with what they want from the relationship.
Now let me reference Kelvin Trek Star Trek 2009 and how the writing of romance was superior to SNW. Take the kirk/Uhura/Spock dynmaic in star trek 2009. that movie -if you watch it with intelligence and subtle depth, it gave things away that kirk and uhura were not compatible as a couple. examples
1. Uhura was a serious person who drank gracefully. Kirk was a drunk brute.
2. Uhura did not like her roommate bringing guys back into the room. Kirk was a womanizer that obviously visits many female dorm rooms.
3. Uhura did not like telling people her first name. Kirk would not take no for her answer on the subject matter even though he can just check the system for her first name.
4. Uhura would never cheat on a school test. Kirk cheats on test. (kobi yashi maru)
5. Uhura implied she does not do one night stands. Kirk still keeps flirting and lusting over her.
6. Uhura was a top student at starfleet academy and it is implied she was already a TA. (teaching assistant).
There was nothing in the film that showed kirk/uhura were compatible, their personality was too different. their lifestyles were too different.
Now enter kelvin-Spock.
1. Spock hated the fact kirk cheats on the kobiyashi maru
2. Spock hated kirk brash or reckless personality for 2/3 of the film
3. Spock obviously knows Uhura's first name
4. Spock was never shown getting drunk and chasing women.
5. Spock is shown as a mostly serious and stedfast person.
6. Spock was said to be one of starfleet's most distinguished graduates. something Uhura was on her way to been. in fact she reminds spock she was one of his top students and for that reason deserves to serve on the best ship.
So do you see why star trek 2009 ended the film with spock/uhura as the couple even though in the beginning they lead us with kirk/uhura as the couple. I just gave 6 points to show this. no 12 points.
in the kevlin timeline, Uhura was more compatible with Spock, they had similar lifestyles and their personality blended better far more than uhura/kirk and the movie did a good job in showing that even with all the chaos of vulcan getting blown up and saving the universe.
See how you do romance in star trek with realism and maturity and avoiding all the teen soap opera madness of CW-SNW with moslty annoying and unlikeable characters?
but but but but.....jj trek is jar jar trek and is so bad and SNW is the bestests trek eva
The writing aint giving for SNW my friends. I keep showing it and will continue to do so.
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Pike was a test pilot, but I don't think Ortegas was ever mentioned to be one. I think she talked about wanting to be the best pilot in the academy though! She puts me in mind of the type of person that would drop everything for a position like that.
I don't think that La'an dying fits TOS anymore than La'an moving onto a different ship a few years earlier. There are presumably many Khan relatives alive as La'an is many generations removed. Kirk and Spock knew who Kahn N-S was, they didn't recognise the man they had found. After they did, what conversation did they need to have? It wasn't like La'an knew him. She has always been trying to escape her heritage so there's no need to tell everyone about it. I doubt they felt the need to let Kahn himself know that they had both slept with his great niece many generations removed. Even if she was dead, would this really be the reason that no-one mentions her? Hemmer is mentioned all the time.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't chapel herself say spock/laan were more compatible or better together in the later episodes than her and spock.
chapel say this herself in the later episodes. that laan and spock were better together.
LOL
- This show is so insane and so all over the place. they do not even know what their characters want.I think their characters just act or say things in the moment. there is little consistency in charcazation and no this is not the same as having compelling characters.
Counterpoint: None of the relationships are simple.yes I think they would have, it was even there in season 1 that they were never compatible. it was hinted in spock amok, he was more compatible with tpring the only thing is, their marriage was arranged so we cannot say love....real love was there.
the error they made with spock/chapel is that they did not even allow them to date for a while before they realize they were not compatible. they should have given them a while to date and even the few times we saw them together like the chess scenes, they were on different pages with what they want from the relationship.
Now let me reference Kelvin Trek Star Trek 2009 and how the writing of romance was superior to SNW. Take the kirk/Uhura/Spock dynmaic in star trek 2009. that movie -if you watch it with intelligence and subtle depth, it gave things away that kirk and uhura were not compatible as a couple. examples
1. Uhura was a serious person who drank gracefully. Kirk was a drunk brute.
2. Uhura did not like her roommate bringing guys back into the room. Kirk was a womanizer that obviously visits many female dorm rooms.
3. Uhura did not like telling people her first name. Kirk would not take no for her answer on the subject matter even though he can just check the system for her first name.
4. Uhura would never cheat on a school test. Kirk cheats on test. (kobi yashi maru)
5. Uhura implied she does not do one night stands. Kirk still keeps flirting and lusting over her.
6. Uhura was a top student at starfleet academy and it is implied she was already a TA. (teaching assistant).
There was nothing in the film that showed kirk/uhura were compatible, their personality was too different. their lifestyles were too different.
Now enter kelvin-Spock.
1. Spock hated the fact kirk cheats on the kobiyashi maru
2. Spock hated kirk brash or reckless personality for 2/3 of the film
3. Spock obviously knows Uhura's first name
4. Spock was never shown getting drunk and chasing women.
5. Spock is shown as a mostly serious and stedfast person.
6. Spock was said to be one of starfleet's most distinguished graduates. something Uhura was on her way to been. in fact she reminds spock she was one of his top students and for that reason deserves to serve on the best ship.
So do you see why star trek 2009 ended the film with spock/uhura as the couple even though in the beginning they lead us with kirk/uhura as the couple. I just gave 6 points to show this. no 12 points.
in the kevlin timeline, Uhura was more compatible with Spock, they had similar lifestyles and their personality blended better far more than uhura/kirk and the movie did a good job in showing that even with all the chaos of vulcan getting blown up and saving the universe.
See how you do romance in star trek with realism and maturity and avoiding all the teen soap opera madness of CW-SNW with moslty annoying and unlikeable characters?
but but but but.....jj trek is jar jar trek and is so bad and SNW is the bestests trek eva
The writing aint giving for SNW my friends. I keep showing it and will continue to do so.
In both universes, Kirk likes women who challenge him intellectually but he's also not great at compromise, which is why he enjoys playing sexual politics with adversaries, his one-nighters are purely physical, and his relationships are fiery and short-lived. It's also why he's lonely.
TOS Uhura likes a man with a sense of humour and can get very horny. Remember how, in Man Trap, she asked a crewman to come and fix her rattling doors? That was a nudge, nudge, wink wink moment. She flirts and teases Spock because she sees him as safe and A-sexual but she probably would if given a chance. Her personality is a bit like TOS Amanda. I could see it working. They would tease each other relentlessly.
NuUhura's personality was very mature, sanitised, and sensible. Too sensible considering she's only 18 based on canonical age - hardly a good foil for Kirk, possibly good for 26-year old Spock (bit creepy perving on a teenage student mind you) but then NuAmanda seemed to have had a sense of humour bypass too...
NuSpock is surprisingly irritable for a Vulcan. Uhura seems to spend a fair bit of time trying to manage him or trying to get him to reach equilibrium. She does seem to understand him but she's afraid that he's not in control of his emotions and this could impact their work relationship or his safety. The dynamic to me was one of a wife working hard to tend her husband's needs and problematic personality. They don't feel equal. I struggle to imagine what they would talk about in their quarters.
The super cringe moment for me was where they wasted precious seconds on a laguid kiss on the transporter pad during a crisis when the writers could have used a more subtle, much faster finger caress, which Kirk, being observant, spots. The lovers tiff in the shuttle in STiD was a bit cringe too.
I did really enjoy in STB when she rescued herself. TOS was shockingly poor at giving support characters, especially women, any agency. I think STB was the most balanced of the three movies.
Spock's irritability, possibly demonstrating unsuitability for command, was also evident when he wasted an escape pod in a moment of petulance, didn't notify the base commander about a prisoner transfer as a way of punishing Kirk, didn't think to try, or notify the base to try, the base communications to signal a starbase, shuttle, ship, or nearest subspace relay that could contact the fleet faster than limping across space at warp 4.
Compare SNW Chapel to NuUhura. She is drawn to his vulnerability but she just doesn't get him. He doesn't get how to manage an emotional relationship. He doesn't get himself. The teasing of Spock in SNW looks a bit more mean-spirited to me. Both are slightly older than their NuTrek comparators but they are emotionally immature and just bad at relationships.
Korby on the other hand is a charmer. He instinctively understands Chapel's needs but only when they're together. His work, much like Kirk, comes first. I think Kirk likes the challenge of equal relationships and Korby likes to showboat. But Chapel isn't passive in all of this. Her own research is important to her and she has a tendency to pull back from relationships, so she may like the bursts of romance followed by some space.
In TOS, she eventually gives up her research for Korby. Maybe she reaches the point where she understands herself better or just that she felt she finally needed to see for herself to let him go. Why does she decide to stay on board afterwards though? Is it Spock?
These are all very different takes, partly due to different media and eras. I think one difference is SNW is trying to manage its way to converge with the TOS characters. Kelvin doesn't feel constrained and can diverge more and more but hasn't enough time to give the characters as much depth. NuUhura seems a bit whiny and dull. I'd prefer a night on the town with TOS Uhura, singing Beyond Antares in a Denobulan karaoke bar at 3am.
I also think this is yet another reason why Phase II would be more sensible than Year One. More freedom to play.
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Jesus, are you still going on about this?yes I think they would have, it was even there in season 1 that they were never compatible. it was hinted in spock amok, he was more compatible with tpring the only thing is, their marriage was arranged so we cannot say love....real love was there.
the error they made with spock/chapel is that they did not even allow them to date for a while before they realize they were not compatible. they should have given them a while to date and even the few times we saw them together like the chess scenes, they were on different pages with what they want from the relationship.
Now let me reference Kelvin Trek Star Trek 2009 and how the writing of romance was superior to SNW. Take the kirk/Uhura/Spock dynmaic in star trek 2009. that movie -if you watch it with intelligence and subtle depth, it gave things away that kirk and uhura were not compatible as a couple. examples
1. Uhura was a serious person who drank gracefully. Kirk was a drunk brute.
2. Uhura did not like her roommate bringing guys back into the room. Kirk was a womanizer that obviously visits many female dorm rooms.
3. Uhura did not like telling people her first name. Kirk would not take no for her answer on the subject matter even though he can just check the system for her first name.
4. Uhura would never cheat on a school test. Kirk cheats on test. (kobi yashi maru)
5. Uhura implied she does not do one night stands. Kirk still keeps flirting and lusting over her.
6. Uhura was a top student at starfleet academy and it is implied she was already a TA. (teaching assistant).
There was nothing in the film that showed kirk/uhura were compatible, their personality was too different. their lifestyles were too different.
Now enter kelvin-Spock.
1. Spock hated the fact kirk cheats on the kobiyashi maru
2. Spock hated kirk brash or reckless personality for 2/3 of the film
3. Spock obviously knows Uhura's first name
4. Spock was never shown getting drunk and chasing women.
5. Spock is shown as a mostly serious and stedfast person.
6. Spock was said to be one of starfleet's most distinguished graduates. something Uhura was on her way to been. in fact she reminds spock she was one of his top students and for that reason deserves to serve on the best ship.
So do you see why star trek 2009 ended the film with spock/uhura as the couple even though in the beginning they lead us with kirk/uhura as the couple. I just gave 6 points to show this. no 12 points.
in the kevlin timeline, Uhura was more compatible with Spock, they had similar lifestyles and their personality blended better far more than uhura/kirk and the movie did a good job in showing that even with all the chaos of vulcan getting blown up and saving the universe.
See how you do romance in star trek with realism and maturity and avoiding all the teen soap opera madness of CW-SNW with moslty annoying and unlikeable characters?
but but but but.....jj trek is jar jar trek and is so bad and SNW is the bestests trek eva
The writing aint giving for SNW my friends. I keep showing it and will continue to do so.
And?
Godlike transformations are part of Trek since *checks notes* the second pilot.
Yes. Welcome to humans. People still pine over past imagined possibilities of relationships, either due to dissatisfaction with current circumstances. That doesn't mean it is compatible; only that we wish it was.
Did I miss a wedding announcement?
Simple and Comparability are not the same though. comparability is what we are basing it on here.
there is also bad and good writing. sometimes one series just has better or less problematic writing. so no it is sometimes not the same or just circumstances are different.
You can excuse some bad take feminist writing as ...different circumstances. it just sucks to a tea.
It also comes down to ....what is the reason we want to pair this characters together as a couple. I think in the kelvin timeline, the also wanted an original and less cliche story were the hero gets the girl and that means Kirk the hero and the ladies man does not get the girl. Spock the mysterious alien being gets the girl. the kelvin writers were just lucky TOS had the right characters to use to make this come to fruition.
SNW just wanted their super chicks to emasculate and humiliated poor ol spock
because he was just so way above everyone in TOS and how dare a male character achieved that feat when the females like TOS Chapel is the butt of jokes.I can also use worf/troi and riker/troi to support my kirk/uhura/spock dynamic in kelvin.
Worf and Troi were actually kind of compatible they were both half human and half alien and they had served on board for years. so I guess romance was on the bloom but once they starting dating, they felt more like sibling and were clearly better off as friends. their dynamic and feelings for eachother always came off as dear friends.
Now with Troi/Riker. we knew, we always knew they belonged together and any time we saw them we kept on asking why they are not together?
The TNG episode where an alien boy brainwashed Riker to think he and his Holodeck dream girl Menuet had a marriage and child. I still remember my heart breaking when it was Troi that told him and I was like, nonsense. we know riker/troi belong together but again TNG was a mature show so Troi been the ex can tell Riker of his new wife and child but thank goodness it was just an illusion.
My point is that it never mattered who Riker or Troi were with at a time, we always knew they had to find a way back to each other even when Riker fell in love with that Non binary alien, that was not even his type...no offence. what a boring episode.
good writing and good characterization and also personality traits matters. if SNW had cared more about that than just trying to keep re writing TOS because they hate it, I think the reception of the romance on the show would have fair better. the irony is that SNW creators hate star trek more than JJ Abrams did.
If there is any consolation to the Spock/Laan pairing may be Spock can grow a brain and some self esteem and start standing up for himself for once in his relationship something he failed to do with Chapel and Tpring.
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All you've shown is that you get one fact after another wrong.
wait...I just remembered that scene is season 1 where trping lectures spock like a child for having passion with chapel and spock looked like a kid who mummy was spanking.
this was after he and chapel first kissed in season 1. the signs were always there that SNW Spock has no confidence and self-pride of his own with this women.maybe the creators can use Laan to make him gain that. Spock can grow with Laan into a Man, before they write her off.
Lastly I know diane keaton just passed away (RIP Diane) and I really loved her as Annie Hall. she was a female character who was likeable, sweet, complex and overall very enchanting and even if the relationship with the woody allen character did not work out, you are not left hating on her as some do with SNW Chapel.
so most times, I just feel truly characterization helps a lot even when a romance goes down in flame and Annie Hall was actually a feminist icon back in the day, I wonder if we can call any SNW Female feminist icons without major push back? the irony is that I think TOS Uhura is still likely to be seen as that more than any of the snw girls.
this was after he and chapel first kissed in season 1. the signs were always there that SNW Spock has no confidence and self-pride of his own with this women.maybe the creators can use Laan to make him gain that. Spock can grow with Laan into a Man, before they write her off.
Lastly I know diane keaton just passed away (RIP Diane) and I really loved her as Annie Hall. she was a female character who was likeable, sweet, complex and overall very enchanting and even if the relationship with the woody allen character did not work out, you are not left hating on her as some do with SNW Chapel.
so most times, I just feel truly characterization helps a lot even when a romance goes down in flame and Annie Hall was actually a feminist icon back in the day, I wonder if we can call any SNW Female feminist icons without major push back? the irony is that I think TOS Uhura is still likely to be seen as that more than any of the snw girls.
It was in a novel, potentially alluded to in TNG (Picard was in attendance at Sarek's son's wedding), and heavily implied in the recent OTOY production, which took inspiration from imagery and stories from the novels and comics.
That better suited for something set post TOS/TMP than SNW, imo. Otherwise, that’s setting up La’an to die.
I would like to think that it's connected to her persona from 4.5 Vulcans, like it's still lingering in there somewhere. But I don't expect that kind of writing.
But they are.
They explored anger in DIS, and the jokester with Doug, and platonic love with Una. Even leadership is being studied under Pike, Una and Kirk. Not to mention all the comedic episodes about his Vulcaness.
The romance is just the most pronounced. And not unusual. And not just with TOS Spock either. Spock’s actually acting like Sarek (the Vulcan princess that birthed Sybok and Amanda and later Perrin). So, I’m confused as to what I’m supposed to be upset about.
Are critics of Spock’s romances looking for Spock to have an “I’m frightened” moment (like Uhura in TOS) and need to be protected by a female character? Or do they want him weepy like Burnham? What emotions aren’t being explored?
Keep in mind, there the whole Vulcan harp thing to help regulate his emotions. And the romances, as well as Pike's sacrifice, probably plays into that.
Her character hasn’t been assassinated. She has not done anything out of character. Clearly something has to break her agency in SNW (or Year One) to become TOS Chapel.
No one really dies/stays dead in Star Trek. There are so many ways to bring a character back. It’s like a comic book now.
Quoted for emphasis. I feel like the complaints are more around a mental projection of how Spock should be, vs. actual presentation, nevermind the possibility of learning and growing.
Yes they explored anger in DIS but the jokester and platonic love with one off scenes and mostly played for quick laughs. He's sitting on the ship watching Pike but we haven't seen him become a leader. He isn't developing so much as being the Spock he's always been in SNW which is jut a different Spock than Nimy's. This isn't much character development for me. They began to develop his friendship with Pike at the end of season 1 but largely haven't furthered this. There options for Spock are endless but at least 80% of his development has been related to romance. It's redundant and hasn't connect well even across the seasons. Why not really explore the other parts of Spock in detail? This season was like pages taken from his love journal. There's so much about Spock we haven't seen and one idea we've seen on repeat.
No, definitely not. It would be nice if he reflected on what he's doing why he's engaged and how it fits into who who wants to be. I would have expected him to feel some ongoing something about the Chapel situation to have greater consistency with the second episode and perhaps the badly broken situation with T'Pring. If he doesn't feel anything about that, and doesn't feel much about what's happening with Laa'an then it's not going to contribute to his character growth.
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