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Retroactive justification for Riker's friction towards Jellico?

Troi’s change was about the one thing that he did which wasnt objectionable. It wasn’t a drain on resources.

He risked the mission by spending time looking at his grandkids drawings rather than briefing his xo with enough information that the mission could continue if Jellico had been injured or killed in the likely coming battle.

The fish could have gone at any point with an engineer (maybe Barclay) being unable to fix the holographic fish emitter and Picard telling him “actually I feel like a change”, this ret conning in that the fish were never real and were just a fancy screensaver.
 
I wish to apologise to everyone at Trek BBS for saying "Didn't the fish not come back".

I edited what I said, but in my alteration left a double negative.

For that, I deeply apologise.
 
But Jellico is not the Captain—not the boss—when he gives that order and Riker is under no obligation to follow it as long as the Enterprise is still under Picard's command.
And there is a certain kind of irony in the fact that the episode is called "The Chain of Command" because Jellico sure as heck didn't respect the one in place with regard to Picard and Riker.
But that's not the argument Riker made, he didn't tell Jellico "You weren't technically in command yet, so you couldn't give me an order on how to run the ship", he tells him he talked to the department heads and it would be hard, he would not have talked to them if he didn't think Jellico had the authority to give orders.
 
But that's not the argument Riker made, he didn't tell Jellico "You weren't technically in command yet, so you couldn't give me an order on how to run the ship", he tells him he talked to the department heads and it would be hard, he would not have talked to them if he didn't think Jellico had the authority to give orders.
He did his due diligence in prepping for the change but he didn't actually follow the 'order' before Jellico was the CO, did he?
Probably too taken aback anyway by how 'starting tonight' became the middle of the day (1300 hours). :guffaw:
 
But that's not the argument Riker made, he didn't tell Jellico "You weren't technically in command yet, so you couldn't give me an order on how to run the ship",

Yes, because at that point, Riker was still acting professionally and being that blatant about challenging Jellico's authority once he was in command would have been extremely unprofessional.
he tells him he talked to the department heads and it would be hard, he would not have talked to them if he didn't think Jellico had the authority to give orders.

Because he did recognise that Jellico would be in the chain-of-command imminently, and therefore it was a legitimate request that Riker investigate the feasibility of changing the arrangements. I'd also assume that if the department heads had agreed that it was feasible to change at such short notice, he would have ordered them to do so, but because they didn't he appears to have told them to be prepared to implement either option but to await further orders. This is entirely consistent with his role and authority as XO.

DATA: That is true. But in those situations, you were acting as Head of Security, not as First Officer. The primary role of the second in command is to carry out the decisions of the Captain in this case, me.
WORF: But is it not my duty to offer you alternatives?
DATA: Yes. But once I have made a decision, it is your job to carry it out regardless of how you may personally feel. Any further objections should be given to me in private, not in front of the crew. I do not recall Commander Riker ever publicly showing irritation with his Captain as you did a moment ago.


Riker delayed implementation of the "order" because he felt that he needed the opportunity to offer alternatives but as soon as Jellico was in command and it was clear that wasn't interested in hearing alternatives or discussing... anything really as it turned out... then Riker did implement the order, regardless of his personal feelings.
 
Probably too taken aback anyway by how 'starting tonight' became the middle of the day (1300 hours). :guffaw:

Yeah, looking back at the particulars, Jellico kind of sets Riker up to fail. He says to have the new shift schedule starting "tonight," and then expects it to be fully implemented prior to the change-of-command ceremony. Riker seems to have been perfectly reasonable in expecting that either at the CoC ceremony or their meeting a couple hours at 1300 later he'd be able to run the concerns with the shift change by Jellico to get more specifics on the trade-offs he was willing to make and still have time to implement the new rotation by, let's say, 1800.

The question is, would it have worked if Jellico hadn't decided to pop off a probe to help Picard, or, alternatively, if he hadn't micro-managed Riker by specifying exactly which shift would actually be launching the probe in his order. Ironically, that's exactly the kind of mixed-messaging that creates conflicts. Jellico is expecting Riker to "get it done" hours ahead of deadline with a very complex and broad order that requires a lot of detail work it would be reasonable to want the new C/O's input on, but gives a needlessly specific order that's dead simple and didn't need the level of explication he gave it. If he'd just said, "Make sure a probe is launched just before we drop out of warp," Riker would've had the chance to bring up the problem during the meeting and say, "Hey, we can either have half the crew at their stations exhausted now if we go six on, twelve off, or we can have them all exhausted later if we go six on, six off, or we can have the ship undercrewed if you want to go six on, eighteen off, which I'm pretty sure isn't what you meant given your context-clues are inconsistent with increasing crew downtime. What'll it be, skip?" and still have four hours to build the final schedule and work out the transitional period, rather than Jellico cracking the whip and ordering the transition to begin at 1500.

(I actually had a whole thing I deleted about Jellico not even being able to guess who would be on duty when under the new rotation before I decided that it was probably just SOP that a three-shift ship would rotate at 0000/0800/1600, and a four-shift system would rotate at 0000/0600/1200/1800, but since Jellico says like it should be obvious that fourth watch will begin at 1500 before it even exists, I guess I was right the first time and shift changes are up in the air. On the other hand, I remember reading a blog post that proposed TNG-era Starfleet didn't operate on the same kind of scheduling we do in the present day given the ample amount of free time to pursue expert-level hobbies the crew has, and maybe they aren't "at work" eight hours a day, but their duty shift is more like being "on call." I wish I could find it, but it was a long time ago).
 
Maybe if Jellico’s first task on boarding was something other than hiding in his room, Riker could have talked to him before to explain “these are the problems are you sure”

Jellico clearly said he didn’t want to contacted until 1300. At 1300 Riker presented the problems and Jellico thee his toys out of the pram.

He should have gone back to shuttling admirals around on an 80 year old starship.
 
Maybe if Jellico’s first task on boarding was something other than hiding in his room, Riker could have talked to him before to explain “these are the problems are you sure”

The Jellico Phenomenon reminds me of how folk in reality can be swayed/influenced by even limited interactions with the right person.
 
So, this is raising a question for me...

Do we feel Jellico was realistically written, or do we think he's written to fail as a character? Put another way, did the writers fail the character by exaggerating what could have been reasonable traits in the pursuit of drama?

Like, yes, I'm sure we all know people who remind us of Jellico...but do we know people who are Starfleet captains, or hold equivalent positions, who remind us of Jellico? I'm not talking about general corporate managers and such, because those to me aren't equivalent. I'm talking about people who are theoretically supposed to be paragons of virtue and professionalism and actually good at conflict resolution.

Like, there are many people in this chat making cracks about what a bad captain Jellico is, but he is a Starfleet captain...so either he hid his flaws well prior to this episode, or surrounded himself with subordinates more amenable to his command style (in which case, is it really bad or just incompatible?) or is Starfleet of the 24th century just not so great at vetting their command personnel?
 
Do we feel Jellico was realistically written, or do we think he's written to fail as a character?

Both. Most of his detractors (myself included) don't have a problem the realism of the character of Jellico, but rather the idea that he was a good commanding officer who was the right person to command the "Federation Flagship" during critical negociations.

OTOH, it's entirely possible that his abrasive, micro-managing style was the sort of approach necessary to get the most out of outdating, second-rank (at best) USS Cairo.

After all, there's a decent chance that Leyton had a similar command style back in the day commanding the Okinawa (another Excelsior-class) and I wouldn't be overly surprised if the same was true of the unnamed Vulcan captain of the Saratoga.
 
Well maybe Jellico was there simply to deal with the Cardassians which would seem a big enough task without having to worry about the (temporary) disruption to the schedules of the crew of a frontline vessel…reputedly “Starfleet finest”.
They are after all there to serve his commands.
Riker’s job was to make his(Jellico) job easier not harder.
 
Both. Most of his detractors (myself included) don't have a problem the realism of the character of Jellico, but rather the idea that he was a good commanding officer who was the right person to command the "Federation Flagship" during critical negociations.
But how was he not the right commanding officer? People may not like his style but it didn't lead to any problems we actually saw on screen, people speculate that things might have gone wrong had war actually broken out but those are all hypotheticals and not good faith arguments.
I agree that Jellico was abrasive but so was Picard in Encounter at Farpoint, Picard barked at Worf when he complained about being left behind with the saucer and Worf immediately fell in line, Picard didn't explain himself when he ordered the stardrive to surrender to Q, the crew looked worried but did it anyway. Picard ordered Riker to manually reattach the saucer which was more difficult and dangerous than using automated systems and if Picard got the Jellico treatment fans would be complaining to this day that he endeared the entire crew and a bunch of civilians had Riker screwed up.
And Picard probably didn't order it to see if Riker could do it manually, he more likely did it to see how Riker would react to the order itself, would he do it without complaints or would he argue to use the "automatic reattachment" button because it's easier? Riker passed the test with Picard and failed spectacularly with Jellico. And I don't like the "Jellico couldn't legally give an order when he came on board" argument because even if true that only makes Riker look stupid because waiting until Jellico has officially the authority to order changes still leads to the changes and he pissed his new captain off for nothing.

But what really shows Jellico's qualities as a commanding officer is not the beginning of the story, it's at the end. Despite their conflict and Jellico obviously not thinking much of Riker he still listened to Geordi and went to Riker to ask him to pilot the shuttle for the good of the mission, Riker on the other hand put on a shit eating grin and make Jellico say please. That shows both of their priorities and it doesn't make Riker look good.
Then there's the scene in the transporter room, Jellico does find some kind words after the stressful mission is over, the Enterprise crew does not, not even a "Thanks for saving our butts including Captain Picard's who starfleet command was willing to let rot in a cardassian torture prison".


OTOH, it's entirely possible that his abrasive, micro-managing style was the sort of approach necessary to get the most out of outdating, second-rank (at best) USS Cairo.
I'll give you abrasive but not micro-managing, I don't remember Jellico doing that.
 
Jellico clearly said he didn’t want to contacted until 1300.
Riker may have inferred it, but Jellico did not say that.

Jellico "I'd like to change that to four starting tonight. I'd also like to examine the duty roster and the crew evaluations as soon as possible. I want readiness reports from each department head by fourteen hundred hours, and a meeting of the senior staff at fifteen hundred. Do you prefer Will or William?"
Riker "Er, Will, sir."
Jellico "Where are my quarters, Will?"
Riker "We have you assigned to cabin seven thirty five. Deck s..."
Jellico "Deck seven. I'll see you at thirteen hundred hours."
 
Riker on the other hand put on a shit eating grin and make Jellico say please.

Why shouldn't he?

Jellico relieved him of duty and confined him to quarters, at that point he's not obliged to do anything... asking Jellico to say "please" is showing basic respect for that fact, which IMO is the least that Riker is owed by Jellico after the insults and disrespect he's had from the man since the moment he took command.

But how was he not the right commanding officer? People may not like his style but it didn't lead to any problems we actually saw on screen, people speculate that things might have gone wrong had war actually broken out but those are all hypotheticals and not good faith arguments.

Except that we are told that it's causing problems, starting with them potentially going into battle with an exhausted and stressed out Engineering team that's missing a third of its compliment, which would materially affect performance as would incomplete refurbishments of key systems that Jellico ordered despite knowing that they wouldn't be completed before they went to danger, and then there's the general moral problems reported by both LaForge (to Riker) and Troi (to Jellico)... and that's after only a few days of him in command...

I agree that Jellico was abrasive but so was Picard in Encounter at Farpoint, Picard barked at Worf when he complained about being left behind with the saucer and Worf immediately fell in line, Picard didn't explain himself when he ordered the stardrive to surrender to Q, the crew looked worried but did it anyway.

Picard barked at Worf because he refused an order during a live emergency, that's entirely different than Jellico blowing off any discussion or feedback on his plans before jumping straight to "that's a direct order" during routine operations several days at minimum before potential conflict.

Picard ordered Riker to manually reattach the saucer which was more difficult and dangerous than using automated systems and if Picard got the Jellico treatment fans would be complaining to this day that he endeared the entire crew and a bunch of civilians had Riker screwed up.

But specifically verified that Riker was qualified to conduct said maneuver before ordering it, so there was little or no risk, making it a legitimate test of character.

And I don't like the "Jellico couldn't legally give an order when he came on board" argument because even if true that only makes Riker look stupid because waiting until Jellico has officially the authority to order changes still leads to the changes and he pissed his new captain off for nothing.

And yet that's literally how it works in reality, and for all Riker knew at the time the test of character was to see if Riker would refuse to implement it on the grounds that it was a bad idea (remember Riker had a history pre-series of speaking up against bad ideas as a senior officer) and not confirming the change until Jellico officially confirmed it was the outcome that Jellico was looking for?
 
It's kinda implied
Jellico "Then maybe it's time you found other responsibilities. You're relieved. Don't make me confine you to quarters as well."
Riker "Sir."

How is that implying that he was confined to quarters?

but not really the point IMO, as "being relieved of duty" was the revelant point.
I'm not arguing with your overall point. I simply said that he was not confined to quarters.
 
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Once the ranks are dropped, notice how Riker still addresses Jellico as Captain (out of respect?) yet Jellico refuses (?) to address Riker as Commander; I wonder if this...discrepancy...was intentional on the part of the script writer.
 
Jellico wanted the enterprise to lose. Not sure if he was a deep cover cardassian, but exhausting the ship before battle is treason

chakoteya.net said:
DATA: I believe that is also an attainable goal. If we utilise the entire Engineering department, there should be sufficient manpower available to complete the task.
LAFORGE: Sure, if everybody works around the clock for the next two days.
JELLICO: Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. It looks like you have some work to do. Data.

Ok so exhaust everyone in engineering for 48 hours ahead of battle. I'm sure they won't need to be well rested and preparted during battle.. I'm sure someone who's the commanded of an 80 year old ship has lots more experience than the chief engineer of the ship that beat the Borg. Not like Geordi doesn't like improving efficiency when it's appropriate - say on the shuttle when he first met Picard, or when playing off against the Intrepid's engineer.

But fine, maybe it’s needed. Shortly after

LAFORGE: Commander, he's asked me to completely reroute half the power systems on the ship, change every duty roster, realign the warp coils in two days, and now he's transferred a third of my department to Security

I.e taking away the resources that Data said were required (and note Data said "Should", not "Will", i.e. assuming nothing goes wrong.
 
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