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Retroactive justification for Riker's friction towards Jellico?

Jellico: How many duty watches does the crew stand?
Riker: We have a standard three shift rotation.
Jellico: I'd like to change that to four starting tonight.

No, it is a suggestion because he's not in command. Note, once that Jellico arrogantly dismisses Riker's concerns after he is in command, Riker immediately impliments the order he has now been given by his commanding officer, despite his reservations.

IMO, the fact that Jellico continues to run roughshod over the crew and endanger the crew and the ship with his reckless and arrogant micro-managing proves that Riker was in the right the first time and while legally in the right the second, was morally and ethnically wrong.

Now, Riker did eventually lose his temper with Jellico and go out of line, but note that that didn't have any to do with Jellico's commanding of the ship but rather his callous but perhaps necessary conduct of the diplomatic negotiations.
 
Hmm, nothing in the dialog that suggests that the length of the shifts, however long they were, had changed. Only that the pool of shift-standers, which was divided into thirds, was now supposed to be divided into fourths.
Which results in fewer people available per section to man the same amount of stations or whatever. If one's department, lab, etc, didn't actually have enough people to do that, it would be a problem.
 
I swear that "Jellico: yay or nay?" has been the backbone of this forum since it started.
If only we had gotten an episode where Jellico and Tuvix met. ;)

No, it is a suggestion because he's not in command.
Should we pretend that Riker was under no obligation to do as he was asked by a superior officer that he knew full well would officially have command in the next scene?
 
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Riker commanded the Enterprise in defeating a Borg invasion of the Federation that destroyed much of Starfleet.

Jellico was...not much of anybody, really.

End of debate.
 
Should we pretend that Riker was under no obligation to do as he was asked by a superior officer that he knew full well would officially have command in the next scene?

Yes, he was under the obligation to do everything he needed to prepare to do it... which he did. But as Jellico was not his superior officer at the time, he was not obliged to implement what he considered to be an appropriate and unwise procedure until after Jellico did have the authority to issue the order.
 
Yes, he was under the obligation to do everything he needed to prepare to do it... which he did. But as Jellico was not his superior officer at the time, he was not obliged to implement what he considered to be an appropriate and unwise procedure until after Jellico did have the authority to issue the order.
Yeah, pretty much this. Jellico was premature and out of line orderting Riker to change the operational structure of the Enterprise while it was still Picard's command.
 
But Shamrock said it was a suggestion, not an order! Now I don't know what to think! ;)
Well, Jellico thought it was an order Riker had to follow.
But Riker wasn't his to command yet because he wasn't Riker's commanding officer yet.
And it was Jellico's mistake to expect that an order he wasn't authorized to give would be done before he even assumed command.
Not as if Riker sat on his hands about it either.

(And, as an aside, there is a line that where Jellico mentions 'already missing the Cairo' and I always snark at the screen, wondering if the Cairo misses him. Probably not. :lol:)
 
Given the premise that Riker wasn't obligated to listen to Jellico because Jellico wasn't (officially) in command yet, I'd find it hilarious if it turned out that the order of those two scenes had been shifted around during the editing process and that originally Jellico was going to talk to Riker after the transfer-of-command ceremony.

(I haven't seen the two episodes in years, so if there's dialog that contradicts my rumination, alas!)
 
I think the four shift rotation would have the advantage of the crew being more alert due too shorter shifts, that is a very noticeable gain especially in a critical situation.
On Deep Space 9, Kira and Sisko went to a four-shift rotation. But they did it during a period of routine operations. You don't make major changes like that with combat imminent! What if Delta Shift, cobbled together from assorted leftovers from the other three shifts, had had to actually fight? It would likely have been ugly.
But if there were actual reasons why a 4 shift rotation does not work Riker should have brought this up with Jellico, he didn't. Jellico only learned the 4 shift rotation hadn't been implemented when he specifically asked and Riker told him "I meant to talk to you about it ..." which obviously pissed Jellico off. At that point it was too late for input.
Riker talked to the department heads. They said it would present a serious problem. Jellico should have either shelved it or addressed the problems, instead of just forcing Delta Shift into existence anyway.
I think a lot of you are giving Riker more benefit than he deserves. He was borderline petulant because Starfleet didn't let him keep command of the ship with Picard away. To be fair, the character essentially died with "The Best of Both Worlds," but Riker's behavior in these episodes was incredibly unprofessional.
Riker made some mistakes, yes. Jellico was actually right about acknowledging Picard: it was a covert operation, and whether to reveal it wasn't Jellico's call or Riker's.
 
That's the thing though, he's very inefficient but wants things his way regardless of any advice or input from his officers.

That's what pisses off Riker - he's demanding wholesale changes that entails a lot of extra work at a time of crisis for no discernable gain other than to stamp his authority on the ship and crew.
For no other discernible gain, that anyone else knows about, not the crew, & not even the viewers. That's the thing. In this scenario, he is not just the new, replacement captain, antagonistically stealing Picard's ship out from under him. He is the mission specialist, with a greater understanding about the needs & circumstances of the mission than anyone else aboard, including even Picard, who he accurately expects is on a suicide mission. (& likely trap)

The guy is expertly prepared for this situation, before he even steps aboard. He knows every detail about the ship, it's functionality & tack, the crew, their roles, their configuration, their predictable objections & biases, even their personnel files, his adversaries, the crisis details, & the who, what, where, why, & when that is in play throughout all of it. I suspect he even knew they'd dislike him, because why wouldn't they? None of them want this.

So given no other option, he chose to play the staunch role they might cast him in, because even still, the orders must be followed & they're supposedly the best at it, & there's no wiggle room, similar to Picard with the Sheliak situation, where he had to also just give demanding orders, but at least he had the luxury of a familiarized, trusting crew

The crew, OTOH, know absolutely nothing about any of it until Nechayev & Jellico inform them. They've been deliberately reduced to "Default Starfleet Crew", on a need to know basis, on a moments notice, because none of this is SOP, in how you'd transfer command of a whole ship/crew, without that the captain gets to select officers of his own preference

And it is not yet that time of crisis, when everyone is disgruntled about being worked. It's prep FOR a crisis... that they hope to avert. This is an impossibility that should fail & the shakedown needs to happen pronto, beforehand, so that they CAN be what the mission calls for (& aren't yet)
There's no real need for psychoanalysis, but if I were to go down that road, I would suggest Jellico is not unlike Kyle Riker in some ways. His style was tailor-made to piss off Riker.
Ok, to the topic at hand. This is a solid observation about Kyle, I hadn't even considered. I think over the course of the show, between his relation to his dad, Jellico, Nechayev, & the later Pressman, (& even the mark on his record from DeSoto) it's arguable he has something of a hair trigger, kneejerk reaction to unchecked authority, built off the guilt of having been a blind order follower noob, that got a whole crew killed, by his actions. It's really just head canon though, but I'm here for it.

Picard is interestingly something special as a leader, who's debated others about actually valuing having a direct subordinate who he wants to keep him in check. He has a mighty lofty impression about the integrity of his role, being one that is potentially possible to get lost in, Picard himself being a man who struggles with the shame & consequences of a very unwieldy youth.

In this sense, Riker hit the lottery, because Picard might be the only guy out there, who he could be a good subordinate to, because the guy wants greatly for his commands to be understood, & that's the only way Riker even likes answering to people, having some say or agency in what he's being ordered to do. It's debatably an overcorrection, for someone in his circumstance, because ultimately, unless a danger is posed, he HAS to follow all the orders, whether he likes, approves, wants or even respects them or who's giving them.
 
Picard is interestingly something special as a leader, who's debated others about actually valuing having a direct subordinate who he wants to keep him in check. He has a mighty lofty impression about the integrity of his role, being one that is potentially possible to get lost in, Picard himself being a man who struggles with the shame & consequences of a very unwieldy youth.

This is an element that stretches back to Riker's prototype, Decker in Phase II/TMP. In that case, he and Kirk clashed, and didn't really begin to click until they're outside the cloud and Kirk snaps at Decker about him constantly advising they take a more aggressive stance, and Decker retorts that his job is to provide Kirk with every alternative, and Kirk suddenly Gets It about Decker's style as a first officer.
 
On Deep Space 9, Kira and Sisko went to a four-shift rotation. But they did it during a period of routine operations. You don't make major changes like that with combat imminent! What if Delta Shift, cobbled together from assorted leftovers from the other three shifts, had had to actually fight? It would likely have been ugly.

Particularly with the warp coils misaligned and therefore operating below par and no secondary power distribution gird (because Jellico had the gird taken offline for an "all hands" 2-day refit about 51.5hrs, then reassigned 1/3 of the engineering crew to the armory a few hours later, therefore potentially increasing the task to at least three days, putting them at risk if the Reklar had taken a hostile posture.
 
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