Retroactive justification for Riker's friction towards Jellico?

[Ragitsu]

Afternoon, all.

I was contemplating an "after-the-fact" reason as to why Riker quickly grew dissatisfied with Jellico's command style (beyond his refusal to rescue the then-erstwhile Captain of The Enterprise): "The Pegasus". We know that Jellico was ultimately not corrupt while Pressman was working to subvert a treaty negotiated in good faith, but, to the outside observer, in the early stages of their respective operations, both Captains Pressman and Jellico were no-nonsense and somewhat secretive/"hush-hush" as to their true plans. After six plus years of Captain Picard - a man who affords all sides a chance to provide input and is fairly open in the day-to-day operations of a ship - I, too, might possibly find Pressman to be similar to a man who, in retrospect, was up to no good. Obviously, "Chain of Command" debuted in Season 6 and "The Pegasus" debuted in Season 7 and so I am skeptical as to the possibility of the writer(s) planning this particular character element from the start, but there have been far more suspect justifications in other franchises.

As for Will's career...there was also Captain DeSoto, although we know little about him; he issued an order that Riker refused to execute and he happens to be a decent fellow "presently" running a supply ship.

 

[Riley]

Riker and the rest of the E-D command crew didn't like Jellico because of his style, which was more direct and efficient in some ways than Picard's. Riker in particular resented that he wasn't going to be in command and threw a typical post-"Best of Both Worlds" Riker tantrum. These episodes do not make the E-D crew look good at all.

 

[fireproof78]

I immediately think of this quote STARSHIP TROOPERS:

" Colonel glided to a T. O. on one wall. It was the usual pyramid, with chain of commanddefined all the way down. "Look at this — " He pointed to a box connected to his own by a horizontalline; it read: ASSISTANT TO COMMANDANT (Miss Kendrick).

"Gentlemen," he went on, "I would have trouble running this place without Miss Kendrick. Her head is arapid-access file to everything that happens around here." He touched a control on his chair and spoke tothe air. "Miss Kendrick, what mark did Cadet Byrd receive in military law last term?"

Her answer came back at once: "Ninety-three per cent, Commandant." "Thank you." He continued, "You see? I sign anything if Miss Kendrick has initialed it. I would hate tohave an investigating committee find out how often she signs my name and I don’t even see it. Tell me,Mr. Byrd... if I drop dead, does Miss Kendrick carry on to keep things moving?"

"Why, uh — " Birdie looked puzzled. "I suppose, with routine matters, she would do what was necess— " "She wouldn’t do a blessed thing!" the Colonel thundered. "Until Colonel Chaunceytold her what to do— his way. She is a very smart woman and understands what you apparently do not, namely, that she isnot in the line of command and has no authority."

As well as Data's instructions to Worf. There was a change of command, and Jellico was doing things his way. There is a place and time for comments, but to directly interfere with the functioning of the ship because of hurt feelings or a change of style? How in the world did Riker get along with COs not like Picard? Hell, how did he get along with Picard in Encounter at Farpoint when Picard told him to do things manually?

 

[somebuddyX]

I haven't seen it in a while but I thought it was pretty much you have this new guy coming in, who is efficient but results focused and doesn't care who he upsets and is making large changes to the ship before the captain's chair is even cold. I like Jellico and would serve under him but I thought the message was both people were in the wrong and that only by coming to a mutual understanding you get the best results.

 

[Tomalak]

There's no real need for psychoanalysis, but if I were to go down that road, I would suggest Jellico is not unlike Kyle Riker in some ways. His style was tailor-made to piss off Riker.

Riker and the rest of the E-D command crew didn't like Jellico because of his style, which was more direct and efficient in some ways than Picard's.

I haven't seen it in a while but I thought it was pretty much you have this new guy coming in, who is efficient but results focused

That's the thing though, he's very inefficient but wants things his way regardless of any advice or input from his officers.

That's what pisses off Riker - he's demanding wholesale changes that entails a lot of extra work at a time of crisis for no discernable gain other than to stamp his authority on the ship and crew.

 

[Tosk]

Jellico wasn't there to warm Picard's seat. Necheyev put him there for a reason, and some of the D crew let their emotions affect their work. They should have looked to their android co-worker who dealt with Jellico just fine.

 

[Takeru]

That's what pisses off Riker - he's demanding wholesale changes that entails a lot of extra work at a time of crisis for no discernable gain other than to stamp his authority on the ship and crew.

I think the four shift rotation would have the advantage of the crew being more alert due too shorter shifts, that is a very noticeable gain especially in a critical situation.
We see this in the real world too, working fewer hours makes people more efficient. Even if fewer people work each shift it probably would be a net positive for the ship. And during a red alert everyone's on duty anyway.

But if there were actual reasons why a 4 shift rotation does not work Riker should have brought this up with Jellico, he didn't. Jellico only learned the 4 shift rotation hadn't been implemented when he specifically asked and Riker told him "I meant to talk to you about it ..." which obviously pissed Jellico off. At that point it was too late for input.

And of course it's the CO's prerogative to ignore input and make the decision they feel is right anyway, this isn't a democracy. If Jellico wants a 4 shift rotation he gets a 4 shift rotation and the crew can STFU about it and do their jobs. These episodes made the crew (especially Riker and Geordi) come off like coddled, unprofessional crybabies.

 

[Tomalak]

I always thought it was the opposite of that - it was a way to make people work longer! Three shifts probably means 8 hours work per 24 hours, four shifts means 12 hours work, leading to more burnout.

 

[Takeru]

I always thought it was the opposite of that - it was a way to make people work longer! Three shifts probably means 8 hours work per 24 hours, four shifts means 12 hours work, leading to more burnout.

Not necessarily, that depends on how the shifts are organized. There are models were only two shifts work per day doing 12 hours each but that's usually a 4 days on, 4 days off model so after 4 days of working long hours they get 4 days with no work at all. Or all four shifts work 6 hours every day with individuals within each shift getting days off occasionally instead of the entire shift not working. That means significantly fewer days off but it also means much less work and stress per day.

I assume on the Enterprise it would have been a 6 hour work day because of the delta shift starting in 2 hours conversation. If it was a 4 on, 4 off model Jellico would have no idea how Riker organized the shifts and delta shift could have started with a few days off. To me Jellico's knowing when delta shift should start implies that they have a duty roster with 4 shifts every day.

 

[flandry84]

I’m sure Riker went on the fleet grapevine to get a feel for the guy and probably realised that if Picard was moving on his (Riker’s)cushy time on the big E was over.

Still the episode harmed Riker as a character but nobody in the writers room seemed to care.

 

[Forbin]

Damn, now that I think about it, my last boss before I retired was like Jellico - a whip-cracking workaholic perfectionist who changed our established processes to suit himself. No wonder I hated him.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Riker and the rest of the E-D command crew didn't like Jellico because of his style, which was more direct and efficient in some ways than Picard's.

As well as Data's instructions to Worf.

There is a place and time for comments, but to directly interfere with the functioning of the ship because of hurt feelings or a change of style?

Except there isn't a time and place for comments on Jellico's ship other than "Yes, sir, that's an absolutely wonderful idea"... even if it's literally increases the risk of loss of life for the crew which his decisions did.

I haven't seen it in a while but I thought it was pretty much you have this new guy coming in, who is efficient but results focused and doesn't care who he upsets and is making large changes to the ship before the captain's chair is even cold.

His first "large change" was ordered (though couched as a suggestion to Riker, likely deliberately setting him up for a fall and the opportunity to undermine him) before he even took command.

That's the thing though, he's very inefficient but wants things his way regardless of any advice or input from his officers.

That's what pisses off Riker - he's demanding wholesale changes that entails a lot of extra work at a time of crisis for no discernable gain other than to stamp his authority on the ship and crew.

100% agree Tomalak.

Riker and the rest of the senior staff are used to being consulted about decisions and their opinions respected even if ultimately their captain chose to go another way as is the CO's right.

They should have looked to their android co-worker who dealt with Jellico just fine.

Yeah, because Data is perfectly capable of working 24/7 for days on end and doesn't mind being abused and disrespected by his superiors.

But if there were actual reasons why a 4 shift rotation does not work Riker should have brought this up with Jellico, he didn't. Jellico only learned the 4 shift rotation hadn't been implemented when he specifically asked

You realise that Jellico asked and received an answer to his suggestion (though he apparently considered it a direct and unquestionable order) within minutes of taking command and less than 24 hours after coming onboard and asking Riker about it?

And of course it's the CO's prerogative to ignore input and make the decision they feel is right anyway,

Up to a point. But that doesn't mean they're right.

I always thought it was the opposite of that - it was a way to make people work longer! Three shifts probably means 8 hours work per 24 hours, four shifts means 12 hours work, leading to more burnout.

In the short term, it would have meant exactly that regards as personnel from one or more of the existing shifts would have had to do two shifts over a 24hr period even if Riker had implemented it immediately.

Whether this would be case past Day 2 or 3 is unclear, but irrelevant for many key personnel as he had the Engineering Department working 24/7 for about a week doing his modifications and "improvements" and likely played similar havoc with other departments.

 

[fireproof78]

I’m sure Riker went on the fleet grapevine to get a feel for the guy and probably realised that if Picard was moving on his (Riker’s)cushy time on the big E was over.

Still the episode harmed Riker as a character but nobody in the writers room seemed to care.

The episode paints Starfleet in a poor light. Jellico is not taking feedback and Riker is unwilling to engage with his superior officer. Picard is sent on a completely inappropriate field mission, rather than relying on intelligence assets.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Riker is unwilling to engage with his superior officer.

Only reason that Riker was "unwilling to engage" was he was slapped down like a first-year cadet when he dared to question the Omniscient and All-Knowing Jellico when he was told by people he had learned to trust and respect that implementing Jellico's first order which he had no authority to give wasn't going to be easy and therefore wanted to make sure that it was something that needed to done rather than was just preferred before implementing it.

 

[fireproof78]

Only reason that Riker was "unwilling to engage" was he was slapped down like a first-year cadet when he dared to question the Omniscient and All-Knowing Jellico when he was told by people he had learned to trust and respect that implementing Jellico's first order which he had no authority to give wasn't going to be easy and therefore wanted to make sure that it was something that needed to done rather than was just preferred before implementing it.

Well..
I won't question your all knowing response either.

 

[Lord Garth]

Jellico was absolutely trying to put his stamp on the ship. OTOH, Riker should've just borne it out for the duration of the mission. With the implicit (instead of explicit) understanding of, "I don't like you, you don't like me, but let's just set that aside and get this mission done and over with." If Picard was killed-in-action or permanently imprisoned on Cardassia, then Riker could've transferred off the Enterprise if Jellico stayed on permanently. Probably in command of something, since First Officer of anything besides the flagship would look like a step down.

By blowing up at Jellico, and telling him off, he would've shot himself in the foot if Picard hadn't come back. As his CO, Jellico wouldn't have had anything good to say about Riker if Starfleet Command asked. Never burn your bridges.

 

[Riley]

I think a lot of you are giving Riker more benefit than he deserves. He was borderline petulant because Starfleet didn't let him keep command of the ship with Picard away. To be fair, the character essentially died with "The Best of Both Worlds," but Riker's behavior in these episodes was incredibly unprofessional. He was the XO and should have set a better tone for those under him, but he was too absorbed with his own petty resentment to manage it. It's a shame Tom Riker wasn't discovered sometime in season four and Will wasn't promoted. That would have brought the show a new dynamic and gave Frakes a lot more to do.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think a lot of you are giving Riker more benefit than he deserves. He was borderline petulant because Starfleet didn't let him keep command of the ship with Picard away. To be fair, the character essentially died with "The Best of Both Worlds," but Riker's behavior in these episodes was incredibly unprofessional. He was the XO and should have set a better tone for those under him, but he was too absorbed with his own petty resentment to manage it. It's a shame Tom Riker wasn't discovered sometime in season four and Will wasn't promoted. That would have brought the show a new dynamic and gave Frakes a lot more to do.

One unintentionally good thing to come out of it was, after "Chain of Command" and "Pegasus", never once during the first three TNG Movies did I ever wonder, "Why doesn't Riker have a ship of his own yet?"

 

[Takeru]

You realise that Jellico asked and received an answer to his suggestion (though he apparently considered it a direct and unquestionable order) within minutes of taking command and less than 24 hours after coming onboard and asking Riker about it?

Jellico: How many duty watches does the crew stand?
Riker: We have a standard three shift rotation.
Jellico: I'd like to change that to four starting tonight.

That's not a suggestion, he's communicating very clearly what he wants to change and that he wants that change implemented that day.

Riker acted unprofessional and had one of his subordinates acted towards him like he did to Jellico we all know Riker would have puffed up his chest and read them the riot act. Remember how he treated Shelby for example?

 

[USS Firefly]

Riker acted unprofessional and had one of his subordinates acted towards him like he did to Jellico we all know Riker would have puffed up his chest and read them the riot act. Remember how he treated Shelby for example?

Or ensign Ro and that ensign from lower decks