Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

[MikHutch]

Ngl I'm tired of fandoms saying so and so franchise 'needs to be put to rest'. Comes off more like entitlement to where fans who don't like new stuff assume fans who do shouldn't have it.

Especially when some of the complaints are misleading or erroneous (like the 'oh no Trek has become Star Wars/Marvel/whatever else series I want to bash' complaint)

I’d say that now based on our divisions in the real world, that allegory is needed more than ever.

Those divisions always existed. They're just been more exposed. It's not like the past eras of segregation and imperialism were unified.

 

[Weyoun 251]

They were complaining that it took too long for them to get into space ("It's called STAR Trek for a reason!")

Which is funny as I think the much discussed pitch for S1 of Ent being Earth based as they struggle to get the NX-01 launched seems quite a popular idea

 

[MikHutch]

Which is funny as I think the much discussed pitch for S1 of Ent being Earth based as they struggle to get the NX-01 launched seems quite a popular idea

Popular in retrospect, probably at least partially due to it not being the series many Trekkies disliked back in the day (for mostly good reasons, I'd say, but not all)

 

[Weyoun 251]

Popular in retrospect, probably at least partially due to it not being the series many Trekkies disliked back in the day (for mostly good reasons, I'd say, but not all)

Very good point on the "in retrospect" - I'd have been up for them doing something to the effect of every 5 or 6 episodes having an Earth based one (or going to Vulcan) due to the need to resupply, get the engineers and scientists to look over the drive and how it is faring, and to give us intermittent updates on the conflict between Starfleet and Vulcan High Command which slowly sees the Vulcan's becoming less and less against the crew being out in deep space

 

[fireproof78]

understand that. Im just saying the unintended effect is it makes some of the characters weak. That's why I like SNW: it does something with Uhura & Chapel

For me, this is why I refuse to play the comparison game. Some characters I definitely want to see more of, and welcome more about Uhura or Chapel or even George Kirk.

But, I approach shows based on what they set out to do. And, TOS was a two man lead show in Kirk and Spock, with the rest being equivalent of secondary or day players depending on the story. TNG flirted with ensemble but then would go back to Picard, Riker or Data as the main players. Voyager ended up with Janeway and Seven, and but again had minor steps towards ensemble. Discovery and Enterprise were primarily 3 mains, echoing TOS in pop culture view, i.e. Kirk, Spock, McCoy.

SNW is probably more ensemble than I would like. I definitely want more Pike but I think that is owed towards Mount's limited availability than anything story specific.

But, for me, I'm a bit different. A character can be interesting in one appearance to me, so I don't need these long drawn out seasons or stories to "care" about the characters.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I think Wesley is doing fine.

Doesn’t blow me away, but I can totally buy him as Kirk.

Hes a terrible Kirk. First hes way too old. Hes already 7 years older than shatner was and looks it By the time they do stsr trek first year hell probably be 44. Second he doesn't have the bravado or energy that shatner gave the character. Being an OK Kirk doesn't do it. Hes a boring Kirk.

 

[fireproof78]

Hes a boring Kirk.

Good! I don't get this constant need for excitement. Being a leader can be extremely dull, and there are times where Shatner came across as boring in TOS. Kirk was not always this intensive energy, but someone who put in a measure of thought, or pause, and something that comes across as boring.

Regardless, I'm not watching Wesley to do his best Shatner impression. I'm watching playing a younger Kirk who doesn't have the full weight of experience yet to have a measure of bravado.

 

[Gaith]

Ngl I'm tired of fandoms saying so and so franchise 'needs to be put to rest'. Comes off more like entitlement to where fans who don't like new stuff assume fans who do shouldn't have it. Especially when some of the complaints are misleading or erroneous (like the 'oh no Trek has become Star Wars/Marvel/whatever else series I want to bash' complaint)

Ngl I'm tired of posters making the lazy and erroneous mistake of assuming my dislike for Trek aping Star Wars/Marvel/even Fast & Furious in any way implies that I dislike actual Star Wars/Marvel/Fast & Furious.

I mean, this isn't an old mistake that I can recall; it may have just happened this once, but I'm already tired of it.

 

[MikHutch]

Very good point on the "in retrospect" - I'd have been up for them doing something to the effect of every 5 or 6 episodes having an Earth based one (or going to Vulcan) due to the need to resupply, get the engineers and scientists to look over the drive and how it is faring, and to give us intermittent updates on the conflict between Starfleet and Vulcan High Command which slowly sees the Vulcan's becoming less and less against the crew being out in deep space

That could've worked. From what I heard they wanted Enterprise to in some way continue what the 90s era Trek was doing, but also do a prequel (idk if it was due to Star Wars also having prequels around then). They even had the NX look like the Akira (which imo isn't actually a bad thing per se). Whatever the case, it seemed like either the studio or the writers or both ended up wanting a show with the same 'go to different planet' format of TOS/TNG/VOY with nostalgic appeal for the TOS era while keeping the recent style of then-recent Treks. We ended up getting it kinda half-assed in every way

For me, this is why I refuse to play the comparison game. Some characters I definitely want to see more of, and welcome more about Uhura or Chapel or even George Kirk.

But, I approach shows based on what they set out to do. And, TOS was a two man lead show in Kirk and Spock, with the rest being equivalent of secondary or day players depending on the story. TNG flirted with ensemble but then would go back to Picard, Riker or Data as the main players. Voyager ended up with Janeway and Seven, and but again had minor steps towards ensemble. Discovery and Enterprise were primarily 3 mains, echoing TOS in pop culture view, i.e. Kirk, Spock, McCoy.

SNW is probably more ensemble than I would like. I definitely want more Pike but I think that is owed towards Mount's limited availability than anything story specific.

But, for me, I'm a bit different. A character can be interesting in one appearance to me, so I don't need these long drawn out seasons or stories to "care" about the characters.

I don't believe comparisons are bad as long as fans don't go overboard with them, which they sometimes do. I wouldn't say it makes TOS and TNG lesser, but I do believe it makes those side characters less fleshed out. It's not inherently a drawback but I think a series can be stronger if the side characters at least get something beyond basic character sketches. Like I believe Discovery became better when Saru, Stamets, Culber, Tilly, etc., were more thoroughly characterized.

However, I think it's a bigger problem if a show tries to be about an ensemble but doesn't do a good job, than just having the side characters be recurring support to a smaller main duo/trio

Ngl I'm tired of posters making the lazy and erroneous mistake of assuming my dislike for Trek aping Star Wars/Marvel/even Fast & Furious in any way implies that I dislike actual Star Wars/Marvel/Fast & Furious .

I mean, this isn't an old mistake that I can recall; it may have just happened this once, but I'm already tired of it.

Sorry I mean this in general, not you specifically. But I just see Trekkers blame these 2 for perceived or real issues with New Trek, and it annoys me

 

[fireproof78]

I don't believe comparisons are bad as long as fans don't go overboard with them, which they sometimes do.

I rarely find any good coming out of them.

 

[MikHutch]

I rarely find any good coming out of them.

Depends. Sometimes a new series can do something better than an old, and vice versa. Like DS9 handled female characters better than previous, and following, Treks in many ways

Problem is hyperbole and inaccuracy, like when fans say "New Trek is horrible because it forces modern slang" while they ignore the 60s beehive hairdos in TOS or "DS9 is on a station! Blasphemy."

 

[bdub76]

I think DS9 does the ensemble, female characters and alien civilizations better than TOS, TNG, ENT or DSC ever did

I do think they kinda overdid the Klingons who'd already been featured heavily in TOS and TNG

My two biggest issues with DS9 are: watering down the Klingons and the Dominion. The Klingons became far less serious in DS9 than they were depicted in TNG, and once we got the Dominion gathered together in episodes, it became a bit ridiculous. Some scenes reminded me of Power Ranger villains gathering. It wasn't dark enough.

 

[MikHutch]

My two biggest issues with DS9 are: watering down the Klingons and the Dominion. The Klingons became far less serious in DS9 than they were depicted in TNG, and once we got the Dominion gathered together in episodes, it became a bit ridiculous. Some scenes reminded me of Power Ranger villains gathering. It wasn't dark enough.

less serious as in more over the top with the violent warrior persona?

I'm of the mindset that the whole shapeshifting infiltration concept is more interesting than a full scale space battle, though I enjoy the battles. I didn't get power rangers vibes personally, though I speak as someone who, while (barely) alive when DS9 was on, only watched it a decade or two later in retrospect. shapeshifters undergoing subterfuge and sabotage, on both the protagonists' and antagonists' sides, can be entertaining in its own way

I also feel DS9 had enough new alien species to not need to focus on the Klingons yet again. Compare species like the Bolians who have a distinct design yet despite being common in Berman era Trek (and SNW) are barely focused on. Or the Jem'Hadar who recur yet don't get a single recurring main character unlike the Changelings & Vorta.

 

[Starflight]

Regarding the central point of this thread... something I've been wondering - what if TNG had launched as an original IP, one clearly inspired by Star Trek but not officially Star Trek? Just file the serial numbers off, Orville-style.

Star Trek's brand identity would thus have been very clear - it's an action-adventure series about Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise traveling through a surreal, colourful, psychedelic universe. TNG would have been totally free from any expectations to match up to Star Trek, and thus also have its own clear brand identity - talky morality plays and high-concept sci-fi.

Maybe part of why the Disco/Picard/SNW writers struggle to meet fan expectations is because fan expectations are totally amorphous - when you say "Star Trek", half the fanbase imagines Kirk punching a jellyfish in a neon-pink castle or whatever and the other half imagines Picard reading legal documents in a beige boardroom.

Obviously it's 40 years too late to do anything now, but it's a fun thought experiment.

 

[BillJ]

Regarding the central point of this thread... something I've been wondering - what if TNG had launched as an original IP, one clearly inspired by Star Trek but not officially Star Trek? Just file the serial numbers off, Orville-style.

Star Trek's brand identity would thus have been very clear - it's an action-adventure series about Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise traveling through a surreal, colourful, psychedelic universe. TNG would have been totally free from any expectations to match up to Star Trek, and thus also have its own clear brand identity - talky morality plays and high-concept sci-fi.

TNG would've had a much smaller budget and likely wouldn't have survived its initial 13-episode order.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe part of why the Disco/Picard/SNW writers struggle to meet fan expectations is because fan expectations are totally amorphous - when you say "Star Trek", half the fanbase imagines Kirk punching a jellyfish in a neon-pink castle or whatever and the other half imagines Picard reading legal documents in a beige boardroom.

This is largely the greater problem. Ask 12 people to define Star Trek and you'll get 25 different answers, all of them deemed "true."

It's not helped by what I can only describe as an obsession with canon. Now, maybe I missed the great assembly of fictional work consumers who determined that "canon" was the only arbiter of quality but I must have missed it.

I go back to my basic Trek experience: it's a sandbox with a platform that supports multiple story types, including horror, comedy, and action/adventure. Yes, it can delve in to commentary and allegory but that's only it's only function. Treating as "this one thing" is set up for disappointment.

And given reactions to TMP, TNG, and Deep Space Nine, never mind the death threats towards Bennett and Myer over TWOK I'd say fans have been disappointed for a long time.

 

[Weyoun 251]

This is largely the greater problem. Ask 12 people to define Star Trek and you'll get 25 different answers, all of them deemed "true."

It's not helped by what I can only describe as an obsession with canon. Now, maybe I missed the great assembly of fictional work consumers who determined that "canon" was the only arbiter of quality but I must have missed it.

I go back to my basic Trek experience: it's a sandbox with a platform that supports multiple story types, including horror, comedy, and action/adventure. Yes, it can delve in to commentary and allegory but that's only it's only function. Treating as "this one thing" is set up for disappointment.

And given reactions to TMP, TNG, and Deep Space Nine, never mind the death threats towards Bennett and Myer over TWOK I'd say fans have been disappointed for a long time.

Surely if it is Trek you'd get 47 answers...

 

[fireproof78]

Surely if it is Trek you'd get 47 answers...

About 30 good ones.

Wait, wrong reference.

 

[BillJ]

About 30 good ones.

Wait, wrong reference.

15.

 

[MikHutch]

I define Star Trek as whatever's part of Star Trek