• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Poll Is Star Trek: Khan khanon?

Should Star Trek: Khan be considered khanon?


  • Total voters
    34
Does it matter anyway?

I’m more interested in if it will be any good or not.
THIS! SO MUCH THIS!

I will never understand why twenty-first-century fandom invests so much effort struggling over what's real in a fictional construct.

Canonicity only matters if you're writing something for the fictional world. It's completely irrelevant to the consumers of the fiction.
 
THIS! SO MUCH THIS!

I will never understand why twenty-first-century fandom invests so much effort struggling over what's real in a fictional construct.

Canonicity only matters if you're writing something for the fictional world. It's completely irrelevant to the consumers of the fiction.

Well, I can sort of understand it, but only to a point. I've always been fond of the creative exercise of figuring out how to reconcile different Trek tie-ins, or tie-ins to other series, into a unified continuity. But at the same token, I've recognized for most of my life that you can't fit everything into a single continuity, and that those stories that don't fit aren't worth any less, but are just alternative possibilities, and that having multiple different interpretations of the fictional universe is a good thing, since it means there are more possibilities to be entertained by. There isn't going to be a test, so there doesn't have to be a single "right" answer.
 
For me, I like a combination of story quality and enough consistency that I don’t have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to believe that it is the same setting. If a new story supposes that Kirk and Khan had nothing but doughnuts and makeovers during his visit to the Enterprise, then I would expect that to be explained, as it would be wildly different from the version in our collective memory.
 
For me, I like a combination of story quality and enough consistency that I don’t have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to believe that it is the same setting. If a new story supposes that Kirk and Khan had nothing but doughnuts and makeovers during his visit to the Enterprise, then I would expect that to be explained, as it would be wildly different from the version in our collective memory.

Well, obviously nobody actually tries to contradict a canonical story (aside from occasionally reinterpreting things in ways consistent with the letter of canon, like revealing that the holoprogram showing Trip Tucker's death was falsified), and our editors and licensing people are there to keep our stuff consistent with screen canon. So what you're proposing here would never remotely be on the table in the first place. Inconsistency only becomes an issue when new canon overwrites tie-ins -- which sometimes happens before the tie-ins are published, due to the much longer lead time of a novel compared to a TV episode. And of course, tie-ins are often inconsistent with each other. Some franchises like Star Wars strive to keep all their tie-ins mutually consistent, but with Star Trek, acknowledging other tie-ins has always been optional.

The only reason it's unclear here is because the Khan podcast is something unprecedented, so we need clarification on whether it counts as canon or not. If it does, then naturally any future tie-ins dealing with overlapping subject matter would be expected to stay consistent with it.

Then again, all this is only true if we're talking about tie-ins. Canon itself has the ability to rewrite itself at will. We already saw a major ret-Khan (forgive me) in "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow," explicitly establishing that the timing of the Eugenics Wars has been altered due to temporal manipulation. Though even that is consistent in a sense, because it gives an in-story explanation for the change. Yet there's also SNW's wholesale rewrite of everything we knew about the Gorn, which seems impossible to reconcile.
 
At its most basic, a fictional canon is the body of works by the original creator, as opposed to apocrypha by other creators. Doyle's 60 Sherlock Holmes works are the canon, everything else is apocryphal. It gets complicated when a series has multiple creators, but generally the studio that produces the work is considered the original author, since the various creators are working on its behalf.
Except that Doyle also wrote a few Sherlock Holmes plays and vignettes that are not considered canon.
 
Even though Lucasfilm likes to say their tie-ins are canon they have not hesitated to contradict/retcon stuff from the books and comics numerous times since they reset things with the Disney sale. So even when the people in charge of a franchise declare all the tie-ins are "canon" it really doesn't mean anything in the long run.
I don't care about canon, I love a lot of non-canon tie-ins for a lot of franchise, but I do prefer if they can keep things as consistent as possible.
 
Even though Lucasfilm likes to say their tie-ins are canon they have not hesitated to contradict/retcon stuff from the books and comics numerous times since they reset things with the Disney sale.

Everyone rewrites history and ignores the fact that they contradicted the "canonical" tie-ins many times long before the Disney sale. The tie-ins pretended to represent a unified, consistent continuity, but when a new movie or Clone Wars episode contradicted them, they either found a convoluted way to reconcile it or just started ignoring the stuff that had been contradicted and pretended it was still consistent.


So even when the people in charge of a franchise declare all the tie-ins are "canon" it really doesn't mean anything in the long run.

Canon doesn't mean consistent continuity. It just means a complete authoritative body of connected fictional works. A canon pretends to represent a consistent reality, but like any creative work in progress, it sometimes revises the reality it presents and acts like it was always that way all along. See above examples re: UESPA vs. Starfleet, Data using contractions, and the Cardassian war. Heck, I've done it myself, when I replaced my first published story in the Arachne-Troubleshooter Universe canon with its updated and expanded version in the novel Arachne's Crime. The event still canonically happened, but the original story must now be considered inaccurate about some of its details.
 
I understand all that, but when they started the new Disney canon they made a big deal about the Story Group and how they were going to oversee everything and keep everything consistent, but then once things got going they still didn't actually keep everything consistent.
 
I understand all that, but when they started the new Disney canon they made a big deal about the Story Group and how they were going to oversee everything and keep everything consistent, but then once things got going they still didn't actually keep everything consistent.

And my point is that that's no different from what happened before. The pre-Disney Lucasfilm made a lot of noise about how all the tie-ins were canonical and mutually consistent, but then new canon contradicted them repeatedly. It's not that the previous tie-ins weren't trying to be consistent; they absolutely were, but canon ignored them anyway, so by the time the reset happened, a lot of inconsistencies had accumulated. Then Disney reset the clock, but the same process is happening a second time.
 
Well, I can sort of understand it, but only to a point. I've always been fond of the creative exercise of figuring out how to reconcile different Trek tie-ins, or tie-ins to other series, into a unified continuity. But at the same token, I've recognized for most of my life that you can't fit everything into a single continuity, and that those stories that don't fit aren't worth any less, but are just alternative possibilities, and that having multiple different interpretations of the fictional universe is a good thing, since it means there are more possibilities to be entertained by. There isn't going to be a test, so there doesn't have to be a single "right" answer.

"Star Trek Mysteries -- Solved!" ["Best of Trek" series.]

First chapter I would turn to.
 
"Star Trek Mysteries -- Solved!" ["Best of Trek" series.]

First chapter I would turn to.

Yeah, those were fun, but those were about trying to reconcile inconsistencies in TOS and preserve the pretense that it was a single reality. I'm talking about something different here, the realization that tie-ins don't have to be reconciled with each other at all, but can be enjoyed simply as alternative imaginings of the fictional universe.

And that includes not needing to reconcile them as "alternate timelines." I've done that with some novels and comics, but in most cases, a logical application of the concept doesn't work, since many tie-ins disagree with each other in ways that can't be handwaved as alternate histories, such as postulating differing laws of physics (e.g. Dark Mirror saying that a large amount of matter from one universe can't stay in another for long without catastrophic effect, an idea she may have borrowed from Jerome Bixby's original "Mirror, Mirror" outline and his earlier "One Way Street" short story that it was based on), different dating systems (e.g. Carey's Final Frontier using the Spaceflight Chronology dating scheme putting TOS 60 years earlier than is now accepted), incompatible depictions of entire species or historical events, or the like. Not to mention things like the Gold Key comics that are just too silly to be reconcilable. But that's fine, since it's okay just to accept them as works of make-believe. You pretend they're real while you read them, and afterward you let them be just stories again, no "multiverse" needed.
 
The Star Wars novels were never canon, that was a lie LucasArts told the readers of the books to make themselves seem important. There was no circumstance under which they were going to compel film and TV producers (making screen stories that would be seen by millions and millions and millions of people) to be beholden to novels and short stories and comics books that had been consumed by less than 1% of the audience. Indeed, the onscreen stuff contradicted the allegedly canon novels all the time, such as the history of the Fett family.....
 
The Star Wars novels were never canon, that was a lie LucasArts told the readers of the books to make themselves seem important.
It's also beneficial to the licensees for the IP holder to make the tie-ins look important because it's more encouraging to the fans. Paramount's "the Star Trek novels and comics aren't canon!" attitude over the years gave potential customers a reason to not buy the licensees' product; the IP holder was telling fans that tie-ins aren't important and don't matter so don't waste your time and money.
 
It's also beneficial to the licensees for the IP holder to make the tie-ins look important because it's more encouraging to the fans. Paramount's "the Star Trek novels and comics aren't canon!" attitude over the years gave potential customers a reason to not buy the licensees' product; the IP holder was telling fans that tie-ins aren't important and don't matter so don't waste your time and money.

Except the idea that importance requires canon value is a myth. It's all just stories. Nobody requires Marvel or DC movies to be canonical to the original comics, nobody requires Sherlock Holmes adaptations to be strictly compatible with the Doyle canon, so why should it be a requirement for tie-in books or comics to be canonical to the shows they're based on?

Despite how vocal canon purists have become online, I think the vast majority of the audience doesn't know or care about a story's canon status. They just want to see entertaining stories about the characters and settings they enjoy. Many people don't even notice the ways those stories may contradict other stories, or worry about it if they do. Not everyone is as detail-oriented as people like us.
 
Except the idea that importance requires canon value is a myth.
But alas, it's a myth that many people buy into.

And there was an element of truth in the pre-Disney Lucasfilm attitude: at the time, SW novels were fewer in number, lower in frequency of release, and probably more tightly controlled, than ST novels, and while I distinctly remember that the initial plan was for 12 movies, the "official story" on the number of planned movies quickly dropped to 9, then to 6. So it wasn't difficult to treat the novels as canonical, even if the novelization of the first film characterized Palpatine as a puppet, and even if the very first original SW novel, ADF's Splinter of the Mind's eye, suggested a Luke/Leia romance.
 
Except the idea that importance requires canon value is a myth. It's all just stories. Nobody requires Marvel or DC movies to be canonical to the original comics, nobody requires Sherlock Holmes adaptations to be strictly compatible with the Doyle canon, so why should it be a requirement for tie-in books or comics to be canonical to the shows they're based on?
I think the Arnoldian attitude out of the studio in the late 80s was basically, "it's not Star Trek, don't waste your money and your time." The point I'm trying to make was the official policy for a long time -- I feel it's more of a benign neglect now -- was that fans shouldn't engage with the tie-ins, and the studio was actively inhibiting the business of their licensees by telling their customers not to bother. A canon policy as rigid as the Arnoldian policy is, imho, destructive to fandom.
 
Except the idea that importance requires canon value is a myth. It's all just stories. Nobody requires Marvel or DC movies to be canonical to the original comics, nobody requires Sherlock Holmes adaptations to be strictly compatible with the Doyle canon, so why should it be a requirement for tie-in books or comics to be canonical to the shows they're based on?
Probably because tie-ins and adaptations are different things? Tie-ins are sold to you with the premise of "this is more of the thing you liked" not "this is a different version of the thing you liked."

Despite how vocal canon purists have become online, I think the vast majority of the audience doesn't know or care about a story's canon status. They just want to see entertaining stories about the characters and settings they enjoy. Many people don't even notice the ways those stories may contradict other stories, or worry about it if they do. Not everyone is as detail-oriented as people like us.
Eh, I think a lot of casual fans pick up on this, for better or for worse. Guy in my STA group was enthusing to me about IDW's Star Trek continuation comics last year (the new ongoing, I forget what it's called, I haven't read it), and kept adding, "it's canon!" (I try to not be an obnoxious superfan in person (only on the Internet) so I just smiled and nodded.)
 
But alas, it's a myth that many people buy into.

Yes, but my point is that it's a smaller percentage of the audience than we assume. They dominate the internet, but online-active people are not a statistically representative sample of the whole, because they're a self-selected minority representing the more active, engaged subset of fandom. Also, self-selected commenters are always biased toward those with negative opinions, because people are more likely to speak up about things that bother them than things they're satisfied with. So online activity creates the misconception that critics and purists are a much larger percentage of the audience than they really are.

For instance, online reaction to Star Trek 2009 made it seem that the movie was widely hated and a complete failure, but the actual box office returns proved it was quite popular with audiences, pretty much the most financially successful Trek movie of all time.


And there was an element of truth in the pre-Disney Lucasfilm attitude: at the time, SW novels were fewer in number, lower in frequency of release, and probably more tightly controlled, than ST novels, and while I distinctly remember that the initial plan was for 12 movies, the "official story" on the number of planned movies quickly dropped to 9, then to 6. So it wasn't difficult to treat the novels as canonical, even if the novelization of the first film characterized Palpatine as a puppet, and even if the very first original SW novel, ADF's Splinter of the Mind's eye, suggested a Luke/Leia romance.

No, that does not agree with my memory of how it was at the time. Not only were there a substantial number of novels, but there were plenty of comics and video games that were also claimed to be canonical, and that were required to treat each other as canonical even when new movies and shows ignored them. And it did require a lot of bending over backward to retroactively reconcile early works like Splinter and the original Marvel Comics series with the novel/comic/game continuity that began in the '90s with Dark Empire and the Thrawn trilogy, just as it required a lot of convolutions and retconning to adjust the so-called "canonical" tie-ins to fit when new movies and Clone Wars stories contradicted them. It's completely rewriting history to claim it "wasn't difficult." It was a mess. The official party line was that it all fit together, but that was always a pretense.


I think the Arnoldian attitude out of the studio in the late 80s was basically, "it's not Star Trek, don't waste your money and your time." The point I'm trying to make was the official policy for a long time -- I feel it's more of a benign neglect now -- was that fans shouldn't engage with the tie-ins, and the studio was actively inhibiting the business of their licensees by telling their customers not to bother. A canon policy as rigid as the Arnoldian policy is, imho, destructive to fandom.

Well, I find that hard to reconcile with how successful the tie-ins were in the late '80s and '90s, when the Pocket novels' output increased from six per year to two dozen per year and there were almost always one or more Trek comics series coming out monthly. I was a customer of the tie-ins at the time, and I certainly don't remember the studio ever telling me not to bother. I know they discouraged continuity between novels and comics, but my whole point is that it's a false premise that continuity is a prerequisite for value.



Eh, I think a lot of casual fans pick up on this, for better or for worse. Guy in my STA group was enthusing to me about IDW's Star Trek continuation comics last year (the new ongoing, I forget what it's called, I haven't read it), and kept adding, "it's canon!" (I try to not be an obnoxious superfan in person (only on the Internet) so I just smiled and nodded.)

I'll agree that it's more common now due to the influence of the internet. But I don't agree with Allyn's premise that it was important to that many fans back in the era when Richard Arnold had influence. After all, there had been no tie-in continuity to speak of in the '70s and early '80s, and the loose novel continuity that emerged in the mid-'80s was piecemeal and never encompassed all the books. So any regular reader, like I was, would have been accustomed to different Trek novels and comics contradicting each other, offering alternative interpretations of the universe. That was the norm, and continuity was the exception. To me, that range of different interpretations was a feature, not a bug, because it was interesting to explore different authors' variations on a theme, the way writers like Joe Haldeman and David Gerrold and Vonda McIntyre and Diane Duane -- and heck, even the likes of Marshak & Culbreath and Sonni Cooper, in their ways -- filtered Trek through their own authorial styles and imaginations and made it their own.

I don't think fandom started obsessing over canon until the 1989 Roddenberry/Arnold memo -- and the Lucasfilm policy toward SW tie-ins -- instilled audiences with the false perception that canon is an official policy dictated from on high, that a work of fiction needs a seal of approval from an authority in order to "count," rather than just being a story for enjoyment.
 
Not only were there a substantial number of novels,
I distinctly recall that this was the era in which -- even before TNG -- ST novels were coming out one or two per month, whereas SW novels were barely coming out a few times per year. Kind of the opposite of the present situation. Even after TNG came out, the question about the SW "Prequel Trilogy" was not "when will it come out?", but rather, "will there be one?" Simply put, once RotJ came out, SW was not in active production, and would not be for over a decade.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top