What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

TMP era Klingon. Easy to tell. The make up is unmistakable.

I've never seen that comic panel.

Kruge I've seen.

What hasn't been demonstrated is the improvement or regarding the tech of the world. The assumption is based out of the real world, that armor must be improved in order to secure the bridge. Except, the Bridge has not been shown consistently more vulnerable than other spaces on a ship.

But that's because the writing forced it to show that end result.

We can always tweak the writing / end results to show what we want.

That's not really a fair comparision because fiction is at the behest of the writer who desires a end result.

If they want to kill Kirk, they will find a way.
If they want Kirk to live, they will find a way.

Same with any end-result the writing staff desires.

So, there is an assumption of premise that isn't leading to a conclusion that is actually considering Star Trek technology. It's ignoring it because the preference is to seal the bridge in a vault, despite several people noting that there is a psychological aspect of desire to see out, that real world navies have both a secured CIC as well as a bridge that allows personnel to see, and the simple fact that in 940 episodes thus far aired the bridge hasn't been destroyed all that often.

So because the previous writers desired to never show that except for that one time, we can't change it because everything that has been established before says it has a specific place to be located?

Despite the fact that for many of the 940 episodes, there was no option for a "View Window" and only a "View Screen" available with a Moon Roof Window.

The concept of a "View Window" wasn't even a thing until the JJ Abrams Trek movie.
Then suddenly it became "In Vogue" or "Fashion-able Design" to make every Trek Ship and give it a "View Window" until there was fan backlash as of late.

Given that you like Windows IRL, you gravitate towards it; despite it not being a problem for how many decades since there was no "View Window" concept.

So all of a sudden, moving the Bridge Module and going back to "View Screens" is a bad idea because "View Window" > "View Screen" in your opinion.

Is that a fair assessment of your stance?

We can't just say "it's logical to do X" because we are not considering the in universe information.

So how do you feel about the USS ProtoStar's Bridge where there's one giant domed window?
You must love it because it has a ginormous Panoramic View on top of the ship to the outter world.

This isn't the flex you think it is.

That battle will go down as one of the worst in the franchise.

Two Starships just sitting there and getting shot at for an hour while a thousand drones buzz around them for an hour was not exactly compelling television.

It was shit.

ST: Discovery Writers aren't on the same caliber as Gundam or Macross Writers for long battles.

Battles were never their strong suite while other Franchises have writers that specialize in battles and have decades of experience doing so.

that was still minutes at practically knife-fighting distance. both forces are on the same side of the planet, for crying out loud XD

That was that specific battle's setup, so give it some slack.

it's still much further range than most Star Trek space battles.

 

[korblborp]

Have you not watched Gundam or Macross Battles?

yes, i literally just described them. and legend of the galactic heroes (the new one, anyway. but clips of the old one seem possibly moreso). and probably a few more.

slugging matches like that dont work in trek, and trek isn't supposed to be fight fight fight

 

[fireproof78]

But that's because the writing forced it to show that end result.

We can always tweak the writing / end results to show what we want.

That's not really a fair comparision because fiction is at the behest of the writer who desires a end result.

If they want to kill Kirk, they will find a way.
If they want Kirk to live, they will find a way.

Same with any end-result the writing staff desires.

Yes, they can. But, well, it's not really Star Trek any more is it?

So because the previous writers desired to never show that except for that one time, we can't change it because everything that has been established before says it has a specific place to be located?

Unless there is a demonstrated good reason in universe.

That has not been shown. It has the opposite being shown. It isn't just Starfleet, but the Klingon Empire, the Cardassian Union, and some Romulan ships.

Given that you like Windows IRL, you gravitate towards it; despite it not being a problem for how many decades since there was no "View Window" concept.

So all of a sudden, moving the Bridge Module and going back to "View Screens" is a bad idea because "View Window" > "View Screen" in your opinion.

Is that a fair assessment of your stance?

I don't think "view screen" is a bad idea.

I stated my preference for a window. I stated it for a variety of reasons ad nauseum. So, I'll let a picture speak for my rationale:

So how do you feel about the USS ProtoStar's Bridge where there's one giant domed window?
You must love it because it has a ginormous Panoramic View on top of the ship to the outter world.

I do like the Protostar Bridge for the most part. I don't love it, but that's owing to the simplicity of it at times. But, it reminds me of the Nautilus so what little I've seen of Prodigy makes me smile.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Spoiler: USS Zumwalt's Bridge

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Here's the trend that the Modern Navy is going for with the USS Zumwalt's Bridge, our most advanced Stealth Destroyer.

It's barely large enough for the CONN station, a sliver of tiny windows, just enough for the HelmsMen to barely see out.

He has only slightly better visibility than an airline pilot.
He has way more displays around him to maintain status & situational awareness.

yes, i literally just described them. and legend of the galactic heroes (the new one, anyway. but clips of the old one seem possibly moreso). and probably a few more.

slugging matches like that dont work in trek, and trek isn't supposed to be fight fight fight

Generally no, but when we do, we have some amazing "Space Battles".

Yes, they can. But, well, it's not really Star Trek any more is it?

If a Star Trek Writer makes it happen, does it not make it Trek?

Unless there is a demonstrated good reason in universe.

We can make that happen ^_-

That has not been shown. It has the opposite being shown. It isn't just Starfleet, but the Klingon Empire, the Cardassian Union, and some Romulan ships.

Have you noticed that those are all Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.

The Borg doesn't even have a Bridge or central command center, the Jem' Hadar has VR/AR Glasses and a few stations in a closed room.
So could it be stylistic design where local powers copied each other and more distant species have more design choices since they aren't copying their neighbors design.

I don't think "view screen" is a bad idea.

I stated my preference for a window. I stated it for a variety of reasons ad nauseum. So, I'll let a picture speak for my rationale:

That was in the Conference room, not on the Bridge itself.
I have no issue if you want windows in your Conference room, that's fine, have at it.

I do like the Protostar Bridge for the most part. I don't love it, but that's owing to the simplicity of it at times. But, it reminds me of the Nautilus so what little I've seen of Prodigy makes me smile.

So you like it because it reminds you of the Nautilus?

 

[fireproof78]

If a Star Trek Writer makes it happen, does it not make it Trek?

You going to work within established conventions?

We can make that happen ^_-

Congratulations on the writing job!

Have you noticed that those are all Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.

The Borg doesn't even have a Bridge or central command center, the Jem' Hadar has VR/AR Glasses and a few stations in a closed room.
So could it be stylistic design where local powers copied each other and more distant species have more design choices since they aren't copying their neighbors design.

Well, you could always work with that idea as a response to influences of new powers that the CIC is moved further down. That would at least be a start, rather than a wholesale pitching out 900+ episodes of evidence of bridges being fine for multiple powers.

That was in the Conference room, not on the Bridge itself.
I have no issue if you want windows in your Conference room, that's fine, have at it.

Missing the point.

So you like it because it reminds you of the Nautilus?

I like it because, to quote Heinlein, "And I could see!" There is an adventurous spirit to it.

 

[Farscape One]

You do know that ST: Discovery S2's final battle was 1 hour long.

Some Sci-Fi / Mecha Animes have entire episodes or movies that are super long battles.

Same with other regular Animes as well.

Long battles isn't a new thing in the modern era.

Danmachi's S5 Final Battle was about that long as well when you watch all the ep's back to back.


Later iterations post Berman era started reverting back to the TNG era designs after the hub-bub made online.


But most of the design looks similar to a specific era generally, the armor & clothing is what changed the most IMO.


That's the thing, I'm not changing it because "I just like it", if that was the case, I wouldn't bother.
But I do analyze things from all perspectives, if there isn't a logical technical reason that it would improve things, I wouldn't make the change.

Despite some hub-bub some Trekkies feel about Floating Nacelles & Saucers seperated from the Star Drive in the 32nd century.
After deep thought and logical reasoning, I agree that is a evolutionary direction that makes logical sense for numerous technical reasons.

The DISCO season 2 finale battle was TERRIBLE. It was way, WAY too busy with too much going on at once. You couldn't enjoy it.

This isn't the flex you think it is.

That battle will go down as one of the worst in the franchise.

Two Starships just sitting there and getting shot at for an hour while a thousand drones buzz around them was not exactly compelling television.

It was shit.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[korblborp]

The DISCO season 2 finale battle was TERRIBLE. It was way, WAY too busy with too much going on at once. You couldn't enjoy it.



Exactly. Thank you.

and it's not like star trek hasn't had dynamic, large scale battles, without being visually confusing, before. ds9 did it many times. even disco did, both before and after that one.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You going to work within established conventions?

We can work something out if you really feel the need to have something stuck on Top of the ship in the center of the saucer.

Congratulations on the writing job!

If it were only that easy.

Well, you could always work with that idea as a response to influences of new powers that the CIC is moved further down. That would at least be a start, rather than a wholesale pitching out 900+ episodes of evidence of bridges being fine for multiple powers.

Okay, I can have the "Main Bridge" & CIC in the center of the ship and the "Auxilliary Bridge" mounted on top/bottom where it's smaller than expected and a nice decoy.

Missing the point.

If you wanted to show a Bridge Window, I'm sure you could've picked a better screen shot than that.

I like it because, to quote Heinlein, "And I could see!" There is an adventurous spirit to it.

And the older Bridges with View Windows like on the Abrams-verse Connie didn't have that?
Or did that remind you too much of the Apple Store?

The DISCO season 2 finale battle was TERRIBLE. It was way, WAY too busy with too much going on at once. You couldn't enjoy it.

I guess I'm used to tracking many targets at once from playing Video Games, watching Gundam & Macross.

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Spoiler: Gundam Zabanya Final Battle Scene | GUNDAM 00 THE MOVIE: AWAKENING OF THE TRAILBLAZER

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To me, those are average battles that I normally enjoy.

My main issue with Discovery S2's Final Battles was that the enemy, CONTROL.
For a AI that was trying to become "more sentient" and had control of large drone fleets, it's strategy/tactics SUCKED.
It most likely had access to all of UFP / StarFleets strategies & tactics and employed none of them.
Literally, they gave the enemy garbage tactics / strategy with a simple surround & pound the enemy to death as a destraction while CONTROL was trying to do a B&E (Breaking & Entering) go in to steal the Ancient Data to achieve higher AI Sentience.

Literally no sense of intelligence in combat / battle, just brute force raw #'s calculations to achieve it's end goal.
Not much of a threatening EVIL AI if that's all it can muster as a solution to a problem against humans.
It's literally the most surface level problem solving, which was very disappointing.
It was such a brutish solution, no higher levels of thinking. That's the part I was disappointed at.

Exactly. Thank you.

I guess I enjoy different levels of space battles than what you guys are used to.
Some thing that is way more frenetic, complex, and detail oriented as a regular Anime / Sci-Fi / Mecha fan.
It's not a knock, it's just the media I grew up on.
I'm used to far more stuff going on compared to the tame things I see in most of modern Trek battles.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The most realistic thing Trek did was to create fictional technology to get around the real life science of what we actually do understand about the universe. Warp Drive, Transporters, Energy Shields, etc.

It's not exactly what you're talking about, but I'll take this and go off on a tangent.

Unless the universe operates contrary to everything we understand about evolution, humanoid aliens almost certainly don't exist as plentifully as they do in Star Trek,* much less extraterrestrial species that humans can have offspring with. Yet these are intrinsic to the DNA** of Star Trek.

The premise of Spock is incompatible with hard science fiction. If extraterrestrials were depicted in a manner true to science, it would not be any sort of Star Trek that we could recognize.

The elements you list don't even qualify as theoretical. They are fantastical, and at best hypothetical.

There is therefore no pressing need to make Star Trek conform to any demands that are intrinsic to hard science fiction.

* - or even at all.

** - Oh, forgive.

 

[fireproof78]

can work something out if you really feel the need to have something stuck on Top of the ship in the center of the saucer.

That attitude ignores the purpose in the first place. "Just stick something on top" is not accurate to why the bridge is there in the first place.

Okay, I can have the "Main Bridge" & CIC in the center of the ship and the "Auxilliary Bridge" mounted on top/bottom where it's smaller than expected and a nice decoy.

"And you will be on decoy duty!"

"Thank you, Captain!"

you wanted to show a Bridge Window, I'm sure you could've picked a better screen shot than that.

Missing the point again. Clearly the argument is not going to land.

And the older Bridges with View Windows like on the Abrams-verse Connie didn't have that?
Or did that remind you too much of the Apple Store?

Not in the same way. The Abrams bridge is my second favorite so it definitely appeals as well. And I've never been in an Apple store so the comparison is lost on me.

The Prodigy has a different feel to it. Something open and exploration like. The other ships had a different sense, closer to mission control or naval bridge. Prodigy felt like being with Dr. Ballard on his oceanography studies. Wide open and curious.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Is this from the remastered version? It looks fantastic, way better than the broadcast version on NTSC looked back in the day, obviously.

 

[Daedalus]

The Battle of Yum Yum was pretty dire, but then to have SNW ignore/forget one of the most significant and emotive portions of it is pretty bad form.

Then again, Admiral Cornwell having to do that was pretty stupid in itself. So, whatever. Damn, that bulkhead door was strong...they should make ships out of it.

One positive, drone swarms, very modern and relevant.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That attitude ignores the purpose in the first place. "Just stick something on top" is not accurate to why the bridge is there in the first place.

To mimic modern day Naval ships where they have their Bridge on top?

"And you will be on decoy duty!"

"Thank you, Captain!"

You don't have to sacrifice a poor officer to do that.
Literally, just spoof sensor emissions in that room is all you need.

Missing the point again. Clearly the argument is not going to land.

I know your point, you just picked a bad image to represent it.
I thought you would've picked a Bridge with a actual View Window.
Not the Conference Room Window.

Not in the same way. The Abrams bridge is my second favorite so it definitely appeals as well. And I've never been in an Apple store so the comparison is lost on me.

You should go visit the Apple Store some time, it'll be a enlightening experience. I'm sure you can find one near you.

The Prodigy has a different feel to it. Something open and exploration like. The other ships had a different sense, closer to mission control or naval bridge. Prodigy felt like being with Dr. Ballard on his oceanography studies. Wide open and curious.

That's a interesting take.
For me, the USS ProtoStar felt like it was "Larger than RunAbout", but "Smaller than the smallest Main-Line StarShip" within the fleet (Smaller than the Nova-class, Defiant-class, Saber-class).

It's in that weird middle ground in size, so the design offered a unique hybrid solution between Shuttle Cockpit and Traditional Bridge.

Something that a vessel of only it's size & manueverability allowed beceause of it's balance in manueverability & performance.

One positive, drone swarms, very modern and relevant.

That doctrine of Drone Swarms isn't going to change anytime soon.

In fact, it's going to become common on a Global level in every single Nation State Military & Armed Militia's around the world.

 

[CoveTom]

We can work something out if you really feel the need to have something stuck on Top of the ship in the center of the saucer.

You keep talking like this. Who is "we"? You have nothing to do with the production of Star Trek and likely never will. Same as me. You're not getting to make these decisions that you keep talking about as though you were. And, if anything, the creators of modern Trek are even less interested in focusing on this kind of technical stuff than the previous producers were in previous generations.

I guess I'm used to tracking many targets at once from playing Video Games, watching Gundam & Macross.

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To me, those are average battles that I normally enjoy.

I guess I enjoy different levels of space battles than what you guys are used to.
Some thing that is way more frenetic, complex, and detail oriented as a regular Anime / Sci-Fi / Mecha fan.
It's not a knock, it's just the media I grew up on.
I'm used to far more stuff going on compared to the tame things I see in most of modern Trek battles.

Holy crud. Those are examples of the kinds of battles you want to see in Trek? Heaven help us.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You keep talking like this. Who is "we"? You have nothing to do with the production of Star Trek and likely never will. Same as me. You're not getting to make these decisions that you keep talking about as though you were. And, if anything, the creators of modern Trek are even less interested in focusing on this kind of technical stuff than the previous producers were in previous generations.

"The Royal We". Well, if I ever get to stick my hands into that level of production detail, I'll be sure to never tell you guys about it.
Just let the work speak for itself. You'd figure it out as to who's behind those elements if you see enough of it anyways.

Holy crud. Those are examples of the kinds of battles you want to see in Trek? Heaven help us.

I guess your exposure to more "Complex Space Battles" must be more limited to Western Media.
I'm of the Anime Generation with heavy exposure to Video Games & Eastern Media nearly my entire life.
So what we see in Star Trek & Star Wars is "Very Tame" by Eastern Media standards.

Some may even call older Trek Battles a bit "Slow & Boring" by the standards of what we're used to.
I call it more "Reserved & Measured" since it's older American Standards that we're watching.
Nothing close to what our generation who grew up on Anime & played lots of Video Games are more used to.

 

[korblborp]

in the undiscovered country, we see the enterprise take two of chang's torpedoes and they blow holes clear through the saucer, with shields up, if i am not mistaken, plus another one that kind of skipped off but still left a mark. granted, the holes were in the thinnest part of the saucer, but that's two full decks plus whatever energy got disippated into space after.

in twok we see phasers do signifigant external and internal damage, including to main engineering which, depending on source, could a deck or two lower than hit.

i have watched a few ds9 battle compilation videos recently, and there are many imstances of ships having wide, multideck, holes blasted in them. sometimes the continue to grow, as if being eaten away, like the crewmember kruge disintegrated, but slowwwly. and other examples of excelsior and galaxy class ships getting holes punched through their saucers by beam weapons.

the birg, of course, can just core sample a ship if they feel like it.

i just don't think it matters if the bridge is buried, if a federation ship is facing a near equal or superior, and lessers, well. plus if it's on top, you can roll ship to take it even farther from damage than if it was mid saucer.

 

[kkt]

Did the NX-01 have a BackUp bridge?
I think your vessel needs a certain amount of size to have a entire dedicated backup bridge.

Otherwise, just route the controls around to your PADD and control it from where ever you want on the vessel.

Useful in some circumstances, but also a security risk in others. How many times are starships taken over by someone in Engineering or Auxiliary Control? Let's see. Riley in The Naked Time. Norman in I, Mudd. The nasty Belli character in The Children Shall Lead. I could go on. Why make it even easier for them?

 

[korblborp]

"big" battles are not the same as "complex", nor are "busy" ones, necessarily. and i have been watching gundams and animes and don't want the battle styles to mix.

 

[cooleddie74]

During the Xindi arc the NX-01 had a tactical room/center of operations that may have been able to fly and navigate the ship in an emergency? But as far as I know the NX-class starships didn't have the 22nd century equivalent of the TOS auxiliary control room or the TNG battle bridge.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Useful in some circumstances, but also a security risk in others. How many times are starships taken over by someone in Engineering or Auxiliary Control? Let's see. Riley in The Naked Time. Norman in I, Mudd. The nasty Belli character in The Children Shall Lead. I could go on. Why make it even easier for them?

They might need to learn basic Computer & Network security then.

Something that wasn't really well understood by those in production at the time.

During the Xindi arc the NX-01 had a tactical room/center of operations that may have been able to fly and navigate the ship in an emergency? But as far as I know the NX-class starships didn't have the 22nd century equivalent of the TOS auxiliary control room or the TNG battle bridge.

It was also literally adjacent ot the Bridge.

"big" battles are not the same as "complex", nor are "busy" ones, necessarily. and i have been watching gundams and animes and don't want the battle styles to mix.

I have no problems with mixing styles as long as it's well done.