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Transition and explanation of SNW into TOS technology

I'm in my 40s and started watching Trek through TOS reruns. I still consider The Original Series to be the best series in the franchise.

All that said, I have zero problems suspending my disbelief that Strange New Worlds is a prequel to The Original Series. It's an updated visual aesthetic. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

What's tiring about the alternate reality concept is that it's part of an effort by certain members of the fandom to knock the newer productions "down a peg."

Not saying this is the case with everybody, but amongst a certain segment of the fandom, it's definitely the case. They don't view the newer productions as worthy of the franchise, therefore they must be made "less than" the older stuff.

Same thing with pulled while Enterprise was airing.

Same thing was pulled during the JJ films.

It's extraordinarily tiresome.
 
To me, it is too easy a way out to say that it is an alternate timeline rather be willing to work with it in some measure.

As far as the discontinuity stuff, I think what you would consider the other side *is* willing to work with lots of issues. There are simply lines they are unable to stretch beyond, especially all at the same time.

Meanwhile, the other side refuses to accept that any such lines exist. Indeed, I'm not sure "in some measure" applies because the party line is that it is all one cohesive thing, no?
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, it occurs to me that the differing views on this might be largely generational. IOW, older fans who grew up with TOS & TAS are more likely to want it to look the same and thus feel the need to justify changes, whereas younger fans are more likely to accept a visual or narrative retcon without a lot of handwaving. So, it would be interesting to see where the age demographics fall on these two opposing POV.

That may be true.

I’m in my late 50’s and have no problem whatsoever accepting a single main timeline, and believe the visual differences between TOS and SNW are completely meaningless.
 
As far as the discontinuity stuff, I think what you would consider the other side *is* willing to work with lots of issues. There are simply lines they are unable to stretch beyond, especially all at the same time.

Meanwhile, the other side refuses to accept that any such lines exist. Indeed, I'm not sure "in some measure" applies because the party line is that it is all one cohesive thing, no?
Sure there are lines; it's just how do they impact the appreciation of the story.

For me, set dressing doesn't mean as much as characters and story.

In some measure always applies because we're not going to view it all the same. It's not a matter of "party line" but taking the art as presented and intended and not immediately searching for reasons to "other" it away from the larger body of work.

All that said, I have zero problems suspending my disbelief that Strange New Worlds is a prequel to The Original Series. It's an updated visual aesthetic. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
This is where I mainly am at. Visual aesthetics can change, and have changed throughout Trek history. SNW is updated to reflect current tech.
 
Not saying this is the case with everybody, but amongst a certain segment of the fandom, it's definitely the case. They don't view the newer productions as worthy of the franchise, therefore they must be made "less than" the older stuff.
There's also the opposite happening. Those that are afraid the new stuff will diminish the older installments. Which is why you hear people talking about how the new stuff erases TOS/TNG/whatever.
 
There's also the opposite happening. Those that are afraid the new stuff will diminish the older installments. Which is why you hear people talking about how the new stuff erases TOS/TNG/whatever.
Which is the reason why I've always subscribed to this particular notion.

IupfFRm.jpeg

It's all equal.
 
There's also the opposite happening. Those that are afraid the new stuff will diminish the older installments. Which is why you hear people talking about how the new stuff erases TOS/TNG/whatever.

It's not some conspiracy theory borne of fear. It's literally what some are espousing regarding any conflict between the Discoverse and prior work, e.g. "in this day and age, I think it makes sense to treat TOS as the approximation and the later productions as closer to the truth".
 
Spoon fed I see
JB

Speaking of "nonsense" . . . I mean, if I were to reply in kind, I'd ask how you even saw the different actors back then, Stevie. Maybe go back to singing about your part-time love of continuity?

Joking aside, you are welcome to spend the mental effort on active denial of the visible, audible, tonal, and storyline differences, things that go well beyond pittances like the recasting of minor characters. Just be glad the full-scale TOS reboot show folks have talked about for after SNW isn't getting made. You'd be in a real pickle trying to handwave that.

For others, such handwaving effort not only deflates any possible enjoyment of the show, but actively suppresses it. Such folks might be able to enjoy it as an alternate universe where they can take what they see as new and unique, which is literally what the producers were trying to create, visually. And they might be able to enjoy the stories shown as not 'bending canon' as one producer suggested, but creating a parallel universe where the old rules and facts need not apply. (Such folks could similarly enjoy a "reimagine" of Master and Commander set on a flat Earth just so long as the producers or other fans weren't confusing it with the original film's universe.)

Heaven forbid.

So yes, I'm sure you find the alternate reality chatter tiring . . . but get comfortable with it, because -- short of a tremendous reset button -- it isn't going anywhere. When you literally alter the contents of the universe before adding your own material, an alternate universe is all it could possibly be, prima facie . . . meaning even without the evidence of our eyes and ears backing that up.

This personal sniping needs to stop now. I realize this is a debate that nobody can really win, and I'll post some of my own thoughts separately. But I want everyone in the thread to settle down a bit.

The bottom line is, the studio sets the rules. They are the ones deciding what is and is not set within any given timeline, and their policy is that DSC, SNW etc are all set within the same original timeline as TOS, TNG etc. Not everyone will agree with that, and that's fine, but when it come to official policy, that's the policy.

If we go by inconsistencies meaning a story is placed within an alternate timeline, do we declare ENT to be in an alternate timeline? ENT introduced the Ferengi and the Borg, well before previously-established lore said they were encountered. It gave us TNG-style phasers and torpedoes. More importantly, it brought in characters absolutely pivotal to the creation of the Federation, heroes as it were, never-before referenced in any way, shape or form. Archer was critical to the Federation, and also played a huge role in stopping the Xindi, which brings up another glaring inconsistency. An attack that killed seven million people, and started a huge mission of vital importance to save earth, against a coalition of species that had never seemingly existed till that point, despite being quite the noteworthy force.

So, is ENT part of a new timeline, and who treats it as such? Then again, it wouldn't matter, the studio regards it as part of the original timeline, and whatever disagreements may be had with their view, their view is the one that counts.

I'm in my sixties and watched TOS first run. I've always rolled with the changes. Sure I might play the head canon thing and make up a reason why X, Y or Z was altered. But if the folks running the franchise come up with their own reason or no reason at all, I'm cool with it. I don't think it's generational. Some of the oldest and youngest people on the board share similar mindsets when it comes to "retcons" be it positive or negative. Those that take a literalist approach will probably balk at any changes. While those who are more interpretive are more inclined to roll with the changes.

All that said, I have zero problems suspending my disbelief that Strange New Worlds is a prequel to The Original Series. It's an updated visual aesthetic. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Speaking only for myself, I'm in general agreement with a lot of this. ;) I think SNW does a pretty good job of updating many of the TOS elements, and does so far better than the early seasons of Discovery. Which is not to say I find some of those aesthetics bad either, but I totally understand the complaint that they don't look like they fit into a TOS era prequel.

I'm of the mind, personally, that it would also be possible to use straight TOS effects successfully like what was done twice in later series (in DS9 and in ENT); the argument that modern viewers would see it as too outdated doesn't really wash with me, because if that were generally true they wouldn't be able to enjoy the visuals in TOS. Every series is naturally a product of its time.

I also understand the complaint that sometimes the show runners don't necessarily have good explanations for how visual changes and other things in modern series, and that too comes with the territory. I myself have never liked how the Klingon appearance in "Trials" was treated as if Bashir and O'Brien had never seen non-ridged Klingons, because the whole thing is rather silly and could have been ignored. But that's me. :D

To use a non-Trek example of crazy visual problems, one could read through some of the IDW Transformers comics. For various reasons, if you follow the issues regularly, one of the problems you notice is that the art style is seldom consistent. Characters will sometimes switch designs between issues with practically no explanation, often because in RL they had a newer toy released, and then a few issues later they'll switch again to a model that isn't accurate to their prior comic models or to an existing toy variation. There's a point in the All Hail Megatron arc where the majority of characters suddenly have their G1 style character models for a bit.

Oddly, one of the few times such a change actually had story relevance, the change wound up being unusually short despite the new form being a lot more badass. Megatron got beaten to the point of near death by Optimus, losing his G1 body, and Shockwave transferred his mind into a sweet jet body. Megatron then had his G1 form turned into human scaled copies of his pistol mode and made sure they were distributed to humans who feared all Transformers, with the goal that Prime would either have to stop the Decepticons or fight and harm humans who were otherwise innocent. He only kept the jet body for a few issues, for whatever reason. :lol:

This isn't to suggest that the IDW stories are less enjoyable. Only that the art style can be confusing over time even to a nerd like me who's very familiar with the lore. Some of that was due to Hasbro having certain requirements related to the toys, some of it is simply different art styles by different artists.

To IDW's credit, it's not uncommon for one set of art styles to stay reasonably consistent if the same artists work on the whole arc, and their story continuity is independent of the original 1980s setting of the starting franchise. So there's no continuity problems if the story is set in the modern day and Starscream turns into an F-22 instead of an F-15. They even did some interesting visual things with Shockwave's origins, establishing that his Decepticon form was originally a form of punishment by the corrupt pre-war Senate for leaking information to outsiders. They basically put his mind into a new, seemingly more primitive body while also severing his emotional core, unwittingly making the new Shockwave into a being of purely evil logic.
 
possible to use straight TOS effects successfully like what was done twice in later series (in DS9 and in ENT); the argument that modern viewers would see it as too outdated doesn't really wash with me, because if that were generally true they wouldn't be able to enjoy the visuals in TOS. Every series is naturally a product of its time.
I'll push back slightly on this opinion only because I think there is an expectation based upon the year released. I see going people trying out older media and enjoying it but still aware there are limits to the tech.

Now, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see a show done to replicate TOS to a T and see how it would perform in 2025. I'm hardly against it. But, not convinced that it will sell because it's a product of 2025.

Ultimately, I'm looking for an entertaining story first. The eye dotting and T crossing is not what I watch a show for.

Mileage will vary as to what is acceptable changes.
 
Speaking of "nonsense" . . . I mean, if I were to reply in kind, I'd ask how you even saw the different actors back then, Stevie. Maybe go back to singing about your part-time love of continuity?

Joking aside, you are welcome to spend the mental effort on active denial of the visible, audible, tonal, and storyline differences, things that go well beyond pittances like the recasting of minor characters. Just be glad the full-scale TOS reboot show folks have talked about for after SNW isn't getting made. You'd be in a real pickle trying to handwave that.

For others, such handwaving effort not only deflates any possible enjoyment of the show, but actively suppresses it. Such folks might be able to enjoy it as an alternate universe where they can take what they see as new and unique, which is literally what the producers were trying to create, visually. And they might be able to enjoy the stories shown as not 'bending canon' as one producer suggested, but creating a parallel universe where the old rules and facts need not apply. (Such folks could similarly enjoy a "reimagine" of Master and Commander set on a flat Earth just so long as the producers or other fans weren't confusing it with the original film's universe.)

Heaven forbid.

So yes, I'm sure you find the alternate reality chatter tiring . . . but get comfortable with it, because -- short of a tremendous reset button -- it isn't going anywhere. When you literally alter the contents of the universe before adding your own material, an alternate universe is all it could possibly be, prima facie . . . meaning even without the evidence of our eyes and ears backing that up.
The differences are because one show was filmed in the mid-sixties and the other is recorded in the 2020's.
 
Here’s the thing that people keep forgetting about TMP, when they use it as some kind of example about what CBS is doing now with their shows: The visual changes shown in TMP was Roddenberry’s way of invalidating TOS, not adding to it. His vision at the time was not that ‘this was always how things looked,’ despite fandom interpreting it that way. His vision was ‘TOS as shown, both visually, storywise, characterizations, continuity, etc. etc. didn’t really happen the way you saw it. As a matter of fact, if you want to ignore it entirely, please do so.’ And why did he think that? Because by 1979 Gene had completely disassociated TOS from his vision of what the future was supposed to be like (not to mention the financial aspect that he was not benefitting from.) The intent was that TMP was a complete reboot of the Star Trek universe, not a continuation of what was shown previously. He also did the same thing during preproduction for TNG. He hated the films after TMP and wanted to invalidate them as well (along with the aforementioned TOS) and wanted TNG to be a loose reboot (i.e. old characters and races might be generically mentioned in passing but the focus would be on entirely new stuff.) He didn’t want Klingons, Romulans, etc. and wanted humans to be more ‘evolved’ (no need for material possessions/wealth, no fear or sorrow about death, etc.) which was very different from anything previous.

Of course, once Roddenberry’s influence was gone, the producers completely backtracked on his vision, and treated TOS and all the films, including TMP, as part of the same continuity as TNG, despite the visual and fundamental differences between all the productions.

My long-winded point? Justifying the changes made for DSC/SNW by saying 'but TMP changed the look of the Klingons and it's still the same universe' or whatnot, comes from a flawed premise about why those changes were actually made. If people want to accept the visual changes and still believe it's the same universe/continuity/whatever, fine. No problem. But don't say that 'even Gene was ok with that,' because that's not true.
 
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