Could Equinox have turned Voyager around?

[Anwar]

Honestly, they shouldn't have bothered with the Maquis to start with and had the "other crew" be the Delta Quadrant aliens in the first place.

And Voyager being an alien ship instead of a Starfleet ship would lend to other possibilities too. Like it having some kind of auto repair or be semi-automated so it didn't need a crew always running it.

 

[Blip]

Honestly, they shouldn't have bothered with the Maquis to start with and had the "other crew" be the Delta Quadrant aliens in the first place.

And Voyager being an alien ship instead of a Starfleet ship would lend to other possibilities too. Like it having some kind of auto repair or be semi-automated so it didn't need a crew always running it.

I don't think there's a need to erase the entirety of a main cast contingent for the sake of another, tbh - simply having more members from the DQ present (ie in a background/semi-regular capacity similar to the other Maquis, provided Neelix and Kes had been made less bland...!) would have worked plenty. Why not have more variety if you could, than less?

As I said before, we'd had the "alien backdrop for human drama" concept used in DS9 (as well as other shows of the period); tbh I don't see a point to making something 99% non-Trek and then slapping the familiar logo on it, but we're heading into Derailed Thread territory with all this anyway.

I do however think Voyager should have added more non-Starfleet technologies to her systems as time went by, sort of a "reverse DS9", if you will. A bit like how Equinox did, only without the nasty moral and ethical issues!

 

[Anwar]

I don't think there's a need to erase the entirety of a main cast contingent for the sake of another, tbh - simply having more members from the DQ present (ie in a background/semi-regular capacity similar to the other Maquis, provided Neelix and Kes had been made less bland...!) would have worked plenty. Why not have more variety if you could, than less?

Maybe not erase entirely, but the Fleeters and Maquis should have been actually a minority on the ship compared to the DQ Aliens. Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Paris, with the Doctor actually being some AI on the ship that models itself on a Human because the ship "Imprinted" Janeway as the designated "Caretaker" of the vessel.

The rest should've all been DQ Aliens. With some being more willing to work with Janeway, others with Chakotay's line of thinking.

The reason I thought about ditching the Maquis entirely was because they weren't suited to long-term conflict in the crew because their antagonism was based on a political conflict 75 years away. While if the crew were mostly DQ Aliens with ties to the area, there would be more room for logical conflict if they were species that were antagonistic to one another beforehand. Lifelong enemy types.

Personally, I'd have made the second crew a bunch of Romulans instead of Maquis. They're the Federations' oldest enemies going back centuries.

 

[fireproof78]

never sure why people want Voyager to have "gritty arcs", the whole appeal of the show is that it's a mostly-lighthearted vehicle for whatever kind of big science fiction idea or exciting adventure a writer might want to tell, same as TOS, except with the hook of being in a distant region of space with none of the usual "let's call Starfleet command" or "this story takes place on a starbase/colony" stuff.

My only reason is because that was the thesis statement of the show was a ship stranded.

I don't want "gritty arcs;" I just want things to matter. Sadly, not much did.

 

[Starflight]

My only reason is because that was the thesis statement of the show was a ship stranded.

I don't want "gritty arcs;" I just want things to matter. Sadly, not much did.

Sure, but the premise of TOS, TNG, and SNW is a years-long voyage into deep space... which involves repeated visits back to Earth at a moment's notice, perpetually being about a mile away from the nearest starbase, and experiencing no supply issues or lasting damage to the ship. The concept is essentially the same as Voyager, just that Janeway's "five year mission" ends up lasting two years longer than Kirk's, and Voyager at least vaguely commits to it by having them move through different regions of space.

The way Voyager uses the premise is that the ship massively outclasses everything else in the Delta Quadrant and frequently becomes a kingmaker, which I think is potentially a more interesting angle than having the ship slowly degrade or w/e. By the TNG era, the Federation had been established as ludicrously technologically advanced, it makes sense to me that a lone cutting-edge Federation ship could just drift through a relative backwater region of space without much trouble.

 

[Blip]

Sure, but the premise of TOS, TNG, and SNW is a years-long voyage into deep space... which involves repeated visits back to Earth at a moment's notice, perpetually being about a mile away from the nearest starbase, and experiencing no supply issues or lasting damage to the ship. The concept is essentially the same as Voyager, just that Janeway's "five year mission" ends up lasting two years longer than Kirk's, and Voyager at least vaguely commits to it by having them move through different regions of space.

The way Voyager uses the premise is that the ship massively outclasses everything else in the Delta Quadrant and frequently becomes a kingmaker, which I think is potentially a more interesting angle than having the ship slowly degrade or w/e. By the TNG era, the Federation had been established as ludicrously technologically advanced, it makes sense to me that a lone cutting-edge Federation ship could just drift through a relative backwater region of space without much trouble.

If I may, the difference you seem to be ignoring there is that Voyager has no starbase to fall back on and effect repairs. For this reason alone, the vessel should be showing signs of wear and tear, as there would be a number of systems and types of damage that are simply beyond what a lone crew can handle, and need time in a drydock to repair. I'd personally rather see them try to overcome issues such as energy supplies and torpedo shortages through struggle, unconventional methods, and ingenuity, than some inane magical reset button pushed by the crayon-chewing imbeciles at UPN every week.

Voyager's premise was brilliant: Two disparate crews forced to come together and operate as one, overcoming hardships, personal differences, and external adversaries alike - a positive message; the epitomy of what Trek was originally about. UPN's foolish meddling all but eliminated two of those elements, leaving VOY a tepid, half-hearted attempt at something that could have been far greater -- and ended up having to rely on an overused Borg menace to prop up viewer numbers.

Again, please do not conflate realistic obstacles and consequences with some kind of "gritty" depressing nuBSG-esque scenario. The often dislikeable characters were what made that show feel the way it did, and while one might say it's a realistic representation of how current mankind might sadly behave in those circumstances, Trek's characters are and should always be aspirational. Put the obstacles and consequences in there, and let them prove to the viewers how capable this disparate bunch can really be. They still have hope, they know where they're going; there's literally no need to write the characters as though they've all consigned themselves to the void.

 

[Starflight]

It's subjective and depends what you want from the show, I suppose. I want it to act as a vehicle for generally upbeat high-concept sci-fi stories, and I think it did it really well. Voyager running out of energy or having to stop for slow repairs isn't inherently interesting to me in the same way I'm not immediately interested in Red Dwarf running out of food, or the MST3k satellite running out of oxygen, or the original Enterprise having to stop for three weeks to repair its nacelles, or Xena having to stop to take a dump (although I think there were like two episodes about that).

Given that it's a Federation starship with replicators on board, you'd really have to really try to come up with serious issues for them, given that they can create anything up to and including the Delta Flyer by just spawning it into existence. If the ship gets damaged, you can create replacement parts pretty easily; such are the benefits of being highly advanced post-scarcity techno-communists. I'm not even sure it's ever been said on screen that you can't replicate diliithum. It kind of winds me up when there's a throwaway line about how we're "low on (random fictional mineral)" with no explanation as to why we can't just conjure some more up. Same for the idea of replicator rations, it makes no sense!

This isn't to say that good writers couldn't create a version of the show that's fun to watch and still has the same optimistic tone while also having Chakotay read out what's wrong with the ship each week, but I don't think the show as-is is "tepid" or "half-hearted" just because it leans into a more breezy mood and fully embraces the benefits of having a mostly-episodic format. Same for the Maquis stuff; it comes up when there's a good story to be had involving it, but doesn't need to recur in episodes that are about big space whales or whatever.

 

[Anwar]

If I may, the difference you seem to be ignoring there is that Voyager has no starbase to fall back on and effect repairs. For this reason alone, the vessel should be showing signs of wear and tear, as there would be a number of systems and types of damage that are simply beyond what a lone crew can handle, and need time in a drydock to repair. I'd personally rather see them try to overcome issues such as energy supplies and torpedo shortages through struggle, unconventional methods, and ingenuity, than some inane magical reset button pushed by the crayon-chewing imbeciles at UPN every week.

That's why I'm saying they should've had more crewmembers who were local DQ aliens who knew where to find such support, but then the problem would be these aliens wanting to use Voyager to help out their people and/or local conflicts and Voyager's Alpha Quadrant members wondering whether it's worth the trouble.

 

[DarthTimon]

Since this is a what-if scenario, afaic the whims of RDM, UPN, and B&B are irrelevant.

Had Equinox been spared, say, if Randy had sacrificed himself for ship and crew? IMO they should have faced an uphill struggle to restore her and Voyager to a semi-spaceworthy* state. Maybe they'd later down the line have to rescue survivors from an alien caravan of refugees at some point, and conveniently some of those could stay to bump the crew count up a little - plus it wouldn't hurt to have some non-Starfleet figures milling about, and drive new character interactions and story opportunities.

As far as personnel transfers, obviously Chuck would be the logical choice to take command; hopefully discarding some of that excess cardboard in the process... Would Equinox's EMH be recoverable and/or salvageable, or would they duplicate Voyager's using a backup module? (if so I imagine 'our' Doctor would ask that his new duplicate be wiped and allowed to begin his own journey of self discovery...) Kim could be a strong contender for transfer and promotion (we got a glimpse of how much more Garrett Wang could do in Timeless, I say give him more of that). I'd let Carey take on Equinox's engines if he were still alive, but I guess Vorik will have to do I imagine Neelix would prefer to stay on Voyager with the Wildmans, but Chell might be a decent chef for Equinox... And Icheb might ask to transfer, believing he could learn from and offer more to that ship, than Voyager.



*I say "semi-spaceworthy" because I'm someone who feels that Voyager should have shown the wear and tear she was due after seven years in the DQ. To anyone dismissing that as making the show "too gritty" I ask that you try not to conflate a show's production design and storylines with characterisation. Trek's characters are largely aspirational; nuBSG's were largely.. not.

I can imagine a scenario, especially if Voyager were showing all of her wounds by that point, where sooner or later they'd decide to cannibalize the Equinox for parts and supplies.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure, but the premise of TOS, TNG, and SNW is a years-long voyage into deep space... which involves repeated visits back to Earth at a moment's notice, perpetually being about a mile away from the nearest starbase, and experiencing no supply issues or lasting damage to the ship. The concept is essentially the same as Voyager, just that Janeway's "five year mission" ends up lasting two years longer than Kirk's, and Voyager at least vaguely commits to it by having them move through different regions of space.

The way Voyager uses the premise is that the ship massively outclasses everything else in the Delta Quadrant and frequently becomes a kingmaker, which I think is potentially a more interesting angle than having the ship slowly degrade or w/e. By the TNG era, the Federation had been established as ludicrously technologically advanced, it makes sense to me that a lone cutting-edge Federation ship could just drift through a relative backwater region of space without much trouble.

Again, I just want things to matter. The premise didn't matter ultimately to Voyager so why make them stranded?

I'm not looking for slow degradation, or grit; just have some consequences.

 

[Starflight]

Again, I just want things to matter. The premise didn't matter ultimately to Voyager so why make them stranded?

The premise did matter; the entire show was about journeying home, the writers inherently forbade themselves from the usual tropes like contacting Starfleet or facing off against an amoral admiral, and the ship was perpetually becoming involved in first contact scenarios with new aliens. There are very frequently episodes that require the ship to be stranded for the plot to exist and which no other series could do (Message in a Bottle, Eye of the Needle, etc).

I get what people are saying but it seems prescriptive to say that the show must adopt certain qualities, lest it be a failure - by design it's a very light series, often with a fairly blithe tone, that's mostly about embracing pulpy science fiction ideas and telling stories about theocratic dinosaurs, time-warping empires, and sentient missiles. It doesn't need to have a serialised element where the ship takes damage over time and future episodes have to dedicate a few minutes to addressing which systems are busted. It is, by intent, a work of episodic/anthology fiction with broad character arcs, in the same way as TOS and TNG.

I understand the frustration of not being on the same wavelength as writers, because I feel the same way about DS9 - I wish it had been an intimate, low-stakes show about political tensions on post-occupation Bajor (think Past Prologue and Duet), and never had the Dominion War or the Pah Wraiths stuff - but there's a point where I think you just have to take fiction on its own terms, or you end up having a poor time with it and the thought process can become "this'd be better if it was an entirely separate thing with totally different authorial intent", which can drain the fun out of things.

 

[fireproof78]

The premise did matter; the entire show was about journeying hom

I disagree that it mattered because it ignored consequences.

That's all I'll say. It's clear my objections are being interpreted as desiring dark and gritty and a worn ship which I didn't argue for.

 

[Starflight]

I can only reply to what's been written in the thread, and the concrete ideas people have been suggesting were things such as the ship taking cumulative damage and losing resources. What consequences would you have liked to have seen?

 

[fireproof78]

I can only reply to what's been written in the thread, and the concrete ideas people have been suggesting were things such as the ship taking cumulative damage and losing resources. What consequences would you have liked to have seen?

Relationships that matter rather than ignoring conflict.

Use of data gained like from TWISTED.

Incorporating technology from the Delta quadrant to replace failing Starfleet tech, like the limits placed on torpedoes, gel packs and shuttles.

Just small acknowledgements of what was listed in the pilot rather than ignoring it in favor of an episodic format.

 

[Starflight]

Fair enough - I think there were quite a lot of aspects like that, such as the EMH's changing dynamic with the crew (and aquisition of the mobile emitter), Tom and B'Elanna's relationship, Kes eventually dumping Neelix because he absolutely fucking sucks, Seven integrating with the crew and adopting the Borg children, and so on. There were also mini-arcs with Seska (which sucked, but still), the Hirogen, the Pathfinder project, the letters coming from the Alpha Quadrant, stuff like that.

That's not to mention stuff like Course: Oblivion, which is not only a direct sequel to a prior episode, but also requires you to have seen every previous episode in order to pick up on the twist early. The Voyager Conspiracy and Shattered also benefit from the viewer having seen every previous episode.

It had more continuity and generally clearer character arcs than TOS or TNG but still retained a story-of-the-week format, which I think was a huge advantage.

 

[Oddish]

The premise of Voyager was completely wrong for a purely episodic series. TNG, with its immense ship that (despite the intro) was more suitable for diplomatic or scientific work than exploration... perfect for it. But if they wanted a stranded ship journeying home, there needed to be a sense of consequence, especially when the ship got shot up or some such thing. They could at least have run out of torpedoes at some point.

 

[Blip]

I can only reply to what's been written in the thread, and the concrete ideas people have been suggesting were things such as the ship taking cumulative damage and losing resources. What consequences would you have liked to have seen?

You seem to be misinterpreting what people are saying. No one is asking for a long drawn out version of Year of Hell, in case that's the conclusion you're reaching; merely that there be (new, unique) obstacles for the crew to overcome. That has the potential to be immensely positive, and yes as you point out there were a few instances where we saw this done. What people are saying is that there should have been a lot more of this.

The show obviously wasn't that much of a success - the premise as UPN wanted it depicted was understandably not bringing in the necessary viewership in the first few seasons, which is precisely why they ended up replacing a main character and relying far too heavily on the Borg to try and bolster those numbers.

Don't get me wrong: I enjoy Voyager for what it was, which was essentially TV popcorn fare. But when I look at the best of the VOY episodes I lament how much greater the show could have been, overall; how much more of a positive inspiration the characters could have been if allowed to develop, and grow, and overcome obstacles in a realistic progression, as opposed to being stifled by the ridiculous post-episode reset.

Having Equinox survive, and the crews presented with the challenges (to overcome, naysayers!) of her repair and operation? Absolutely intriguing!

 

[Starflight]

Definitely won't disagree with that, though I think the show does hook into the premise much more frequently than people suggest, and the characters have clearer arcs than the TNG cast (who get minimal development) and the DS9 cast (who get fairly scattershot, muddled development IMO). Even in otherwise-standalone episodes, their isolation from Starfleet Command often plays into the plot, and the fact that Federation technology is typically more advanced than DQ tech is a frequently recurring plot point.

You're right in that there's great potential for stories in which (for example) Delta Quadrant tech has to be integrated into the ship, but I don't feel the absence of such stories too deeply since I think the majority of the show is very good, and makes solid enough use of the show's core elements. Plenty of episodes could also have been done in TNG, but there were just as many that were unique to Voyager's premise - especially when you consider that characters like Seven and the EMH are tied very closely to the show's running plot.

 

[fireproof78]

Fair enough - I think there were quite a lot of aspects like that, such as the EMH's changing dynamic with the crew (and aquisition of the mobile emitter), Tom and B'Elanna's relationship, Kes eventually dumping Neelix because he absolutely fucking sucks, Seven integrating with the crew and adopting the Borg children, and so on. There were also mini-arcs with Seska (which sucked, but still), the Hirogen, the Pathfinder project, the letters coming from the Alpha Quadrant, stuff like that.

That's not to mention stuff like Course: Oblivion, which is not only a direct sequel to a prior episode, but also requires you to have seen every previous episode in order to pick up on the twist early. The Voyager Conspiracy and Shattered also benefit from the viewer having seen every previous episode.

It had more continuity and generally clearer character arcs than TOS or TNG but still retained a story-of-the-week format, which I think was a huge advantage.

Right, but none of that mattered for the premise.

This isn't saying it didn't have continuity; it struggled like many Trek series do.

It's that it ignored its base premise and potential for drama in favor of later additions and episodic storytelling.

The premise of Voyager was completely wrong for a purely episodic series. TNG, with its immense ship that (despite the intro) was more suitable for diplomatic or scientific work than exploration... perfect for it. But if they wanted a stranded ship journeying home, there needed to be a sense of consequence, especially when the ship got shot up or some such thing. They could at least have run out of torpedoes at some point.

This. They did many Chekhov's gun with no payoffs.

 

[Starflight]

It's that it ignored its base premise and potential for drama in favor of later additions and episodic storytelling.

I think if you take stock of the show episode-by-episode, you find that a great many episodes hinge on the premise, or would play out markedly differently without it. Any episode involving:
- The EMH (who has been left on too long out of necessity, which is the basis of his character)
- Seven (obvious)
- Maquis
- Pathfinder
- A potential new way home, or a method of advancing the journey
- Janeway not being able to rely on Starfleet Command (eg in Phage, the Vidiians can't simply be arrested)
- The Federation not being known to native DQ people
- Arguably, most Borg episodes (many of which only work if they take place in Borg territory and couldn't be transplanted to TNG)

Invariably rests on the premise of being the only Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant, and the events that have transpired since their arrival. I'm obviously being generous and assuming that Vidiian/Ocampan/Hirogen/etc episodes could easily be transplanted to TNG with a light rewrite.

The show does refer back to the premise and previous events constantly, the tone is generally just very cavalier.