TOS had the first interracial kiss on network RV in the states a black eoman on the bridge, an Asian, and a Russian on the bridge. Heady stuff for the 1960s.
You just have no idea what the times were like, methinks. How old are you, if I may ask?
Why is Star Trek so bad with women characters?
- Thread starter Whizkid
- Start date
TOS had the first interracial kiss on network RV in the states a black eoman on the bridge, an Asian, and a Russian on the bridge. Heady stuff for the 1960s.
You just have no idea what the times were like, methinks. How old are you, if I may ask?
Commercial Sci-Fi (for lack of a better term) has always had "Rule of Hot" for female characters - regardless of how intelligent, strong, talented they are written - with it being especially noticeable (to me at least - may have been equally prevalent at other times but this coincides with my favourite sci-fi shows being on TV and in greater numbers concurrently than I am aware of there previously being...certainly in the UK)
SG-1 feels like the exception as for most of its run the two main female characters were Carter (multiple doctorates and could kick a Goa'uld's arse but never overly sexualised (pretending the awful introduction line from the first film didn't happen) and Dr Fraser who was simply an excellent doctor. Now both women were very attractive but that was rarely focussed on, although the Carter/O'Neil will they won't they felt a bit like they couldn't not have them hook up as every show needs its Ross and Rachel).
It did still fall into "Evil Women are Hot" and obviously Vala and Adria were played in more sexual ways (Vala overtly, Adria through costuming).
Andromeda then has Romy, and in season 5 Doyle, the sexing up of Trance in season 3 (I think), and Beka to an extent but also had Harper who was an absolute perv but was written in such a way that clearly he was the problem as opposed to being rewarded for being lecharous.
What they did do here though was have Dylan, Tyr, Rhade and many more men as eye candy
Farscape and BSG did the same thing - Aeryn Sun could just as quickly kick your arse across 3 parsecs as she could titillate, as could Starbuck but you then have characters like Commandant Grayza (although could be argued it was the classic trope of woman in a man's world subverts things by using men's attraction to her advantage) and Number 6
It was, to my mind, the 90's mentality around gender equality mixed with good old capitalism - the vast majority of viewers were ready (or even loudly advocating) strong, competent, equal women but only if they could also double as a pin up alongside recognition that female viewers were increasingly important as target demos so they made sure that the characters who were in the credits were competent first, sexy second so as not to drive away viewers and then (because TV producer logic) got the male leads tops off and oiled up often enough so they could argue "Look, we have them both being sexualised - equality innit"
SG-1 feels like the exception as for most of its run the two main female characters were Carter (multiple doctorates and could kick a Goa'uld's arse but never overly sexualised (pretending the awful introduction line from the first film didn't happen) and Dr Fraser who was simply an excellent doctor. Now both women were very attractive but that was rarely focussed on, although the Carter/O'Neil will they won't they felt a bit like they couldn't not have them hook up as every show needs its Ross and Rachel).
It did still fall into "Evil Women are Hot" and obviously Vala and Adria were played in more sexual ways (Vala overtly, Adria through costuming).
Andromeda then has Romy, and in season 5 Doyle, the sexing up of Trance in season 3 (I think), and Beka to an extent but also had Harper who was an absolute perv but was written in such a way that clearly he was the problem as opposed to being rewarded for being lecharous.
What they did do here though was have Dylan, Tyr, Rhade and many more men as eye candy
Farscape and BSG did the same thing - Aeryn Sun could just as quickly kick your arse across 3 parsecs as she could titillate, as could Starbuck but you then have characters like Commandant Grayza (although could be argued it was the classic trope of woman in a man's world subverts things by using men's attraction to her advantage) and Number 6
It was, to my mind, the 90's mentality around gender equality mixed with good old capitalism - the vast majority of viewers were ready (or even loudly advocating) strong, competent, equal women but only if they could also double as a pin up alongside recognition that female viewers were increasingly important as target demos so they made sure that the characters who were in the credits were competent first, sexy second so as not to drive away viewers and then (because TV producer logic) got the male leads tops off and oiled up often enough so they could argue "Look, we have them both being sexualised - equality innit"
Well it has an almost kiss. And "interracial" is a bit nebulous. As mentioned Kirk was smooching on an Asian woman in "Elaan of Troyius" Lucy and Ricky kissed all the time in "I Love Lucy", Nancy Sinatra kissed Sammy Davis, Jr on her special "Moving With Nancy" in 1967, a year prior to "Plato's Stepchildren",
Star Trek wasn't alone in including POC in their casts. "Hogan's Heroes" (1965) had Kinchloe. "Mission Impossible" (1966) had Barney. "Mannix" (1967) had Peggy. "Julia" (1968) starred Diahann Carroll. "I Spy" (1965) costarred Bill Cosby, The directive to include more POC came from suits in advertising of all places Illya Kuryakin from the "Man from U.N.C.L.E." (1965) was America's favorite Russian years before Chekov hit the small screen.
Full disclosure. I was born in 1959 and watched all those shows first run
Most of what was wrong with VOY had little to do with character gender. Seven's outfit was a giant step backward for woman kind, though
The shows are always a reflection of the times. I think they've gradually gotten better and more realistic as the years have passed. They also had to balance trying to please the young male demo that used to watch. It was the standard formula to have the sex-symbol female character.
Today [Nov 22, 2020] is the 52nd anniversary of the 1st airing of "Plato's Stepchilden" and we all know what that's debatably famous for. Today on Twitter TrekMovie bucked the party line (link), and they're right...mostly. We replied, but here's what we said:
While there were concerns the "kiss" would be controversial there's no evidence of much of a reaction at all. Even Nichelle Nichols has said the mail received was largely positive.In 1968 the US was way behind the curve in terms of showing affection between blacks and whites. There were a number of "interracial" kisses aired in Europe in the decade that preceded "Plato's Stepchildren".
The big problem with the "Plato's Stepchildren" kiss is that it ISN'T a kiss; Kirk & Uhura are forced to press lips together. That's not a smooch: that's BATTERY. And Dave Kaufman's (aka "Daku") Variety review rightly and smartly called it out on that count:
But six weeks after the Kirk-Uhura facecrush, Robert Wagner gave Denise Nicholas a quick non-forced kiss at the end of an episode of It Takes a Thief. We give that the nod over the fake-o "Plato's" kiss. Sorry, Star Trek.
...and we know of a kiss on US TV that predates both, but we're still doing research on the topic so we're saving that little bombshell for a different date.
I'm trying hard with this whole better me thing the last couple of years so I'm not going to tell you how wrong whatever assumption who have about me is, but it's really fucking wrong.
I'm not telling you my age or DL# or my favorite color. Dark blue. Unless you were also in a mixed race marriage in a time period and southern rural area where such things were kind of dangerous and definitely isolated you from your community, suffice to say, I may not KNOW more than you about it, but I had more skin in the game METHINKS you arrogant assuming bag of pomposity.
So here we go.. Plato's Stepchildren.. Star Trek's great moment in the progressive limelight. Yes it happened. yes a white man and a black woman were supernaturally forced to push their food holes together. That's how it's portrayed. There's nothing loving about it. It's cringe and horrible, as it was written to be. Was it ahead of its time? meh. Did it get everyone to join the O'Jays onboard the Love Train? No. The O'Jays didn't perform that until 1972. But you know that, oh ancient and mighty one, METHINKS. It wasn't even the first interracial kiss, though generally that's not what people mean when they want to get all lurid about it. Did it change hearts and minds? No. Was it well intended? I guess. AT least by the actors involved. Was Star Trek ever progressively in the lead again?
No.
Those laurels are really comfy. But the chance to be in the lead came and went.
Might it be the first kiss between a Jewish man and an African woman?
Arrogant, assuming bag of pomposity? That's not bad. Obtuse piece of flotsam is really the gold standard. I think you can do better. ST is space fantasy created largely by insecure white men. Criticizing their pasty-faced counterparts on an anonymous forum isn't really accomplishing much. But you do what you do.
We're going to sound like bored 5th inning baseball commentators before long. "pop fly to third base caught by Freddy "Two Wolves" Mukluk and its 2 down. You know Freddie is two kisses away from matching John Panuk's record for Left Handed Inuit Baseball Player Who Has Made Out with the Most Panamanian Female Detectives, set in 1972, and I think we all remember how well that went, Don. Oh that's a breaking ball to the outfield.. "
Yeah, this is not okay. A direct insult to the poster.
Next time will be a formal warning.
There’s no reason for you to get involved. Move on.
That's a bold statement in turn. I'm not sure Harlan Ellison, among others, would agree.
Harlan was a groper that hid his less savory aspects behind cranking his virtue signals up to 11. People wanted to believe in him, especially him, so they did. He was an incredibly good writer but he’s not the gold standard for whatever it is you’re holding him up as a character witness. Over the years a cult of personality and a one-sided hit piece in a magazine designed to make Sinatra look like a bully created this image of him he couldn’t live up to. He peaked early and his last good anthology was in the 80’s. People who had to work with him hated him and he hated everybody so it was even. He didn’t even want to be associated with ST. He was a brilliant screenwriter. I wish he’d written more for TV. His Twilight Zone ep Paladin of the Lost Hour might be one of the best hours of tv ever scripted. But beyond being a good writer or gets murky and it’s annoying when be still gets put on a pedestal.That's a bold statement in turn. I'm not sure Harlan Ellison, among others, would agree.
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