• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Wish World grade and discussion thread

How do you rate Wish World?


  • Total voters
    37
I was about 10 years old. I had popped into a friend's house after school and his mom was watching some weird show with some strange grasshopper looking monster that soon cut to credits with a snappy theme tune and stars flying around with rainbowy lens flares and the names of the cast and crew were displayed..

I asked what it was. "Doctor Who", she said..

I was back the next day to watch with my friend and his mom. Back then they showed a 30 minute episode every weekday afternoon.

Of course, what I had just seen was last minute or two of Episode 3 of The Leisure Hive. I became a Whovian immediately. A few weeks later when Logopolis aired, my friend and I were stunned at the regeneration, as neither of us knew much about the history of Doctor Who at the time, and there wasn't really a good means for us to learn except to watch what we could. The PBS station hadn't bought the Peter Davison stories yet, so the next day they started back up again with Robot.

About a year later I met another kid who had been into Doctor Who for longer than I (and had MONEY, which I did not) and he knew all about William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, etc. and had most if not all of the Target novelizations that were available at that time. He became my new lending library! (We're still friends to this day, over 40 years later).
 
Last edited:
I grew up during the time Doctor Who had vanished from British TV, so all I saw of it were things like Dimensions in Time and the 1996 movie, and even as a kid I knew that they were terrible.

I didn't pay much attention to the 2005 revival when it came along as it just looked just as cheesy as I thought it would. Though when I saw the hype about Steven Moffat taking over as showrunner, I decided to give The Eleventh Hour a shot, and it was good enough to keep me watching. (I've caught up since then).
 
I started playing Second Life in college, and some people had this nifty gadget that was called a police box, that worked with the star trek gadgets I was interested in.
Not knowing anything about Doctor Who, I looked it up and the show must have been running during S4, since this was roughly 2007-8. I do remember that I started watching before the Stolen Earth/Journey's End
 
Everybody's homework assignment has been posted on YouTube.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

I prefer this one over 'The Three Doctors' in terms of Omega's portrayal. Here, he's a tragic figure. In his original outing, he's a generic shouty megalomaniac of the 2D sort that Classic Who could be known for at times. That aside, I wish 'Arc of Infinity' bothered to explain Omega instead of coming across as if it was the first story to feature Omega.
^Agreed about the Daleks not feeling threatening after their first appearance*. They went the way Voyager took the Borg. It's another reason why I'm glad RTD is mining new material rather than going back to the same old proven wells.

The idea of this "pantheon" is not uninteresting, and it is doing something new with a lot of established baddies. But some of his tropes still shine through the ideas.

*Yes! Until Chibnall! I'm glad someone said it. For me, Thirteen's defining moment was this moment, where I said "yes this is the Doctor", and was from her first encounter with a Dalek.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

I never noticed the blue reflective glow off the back of the microphone before. Nice touch. :)
 
The more I think about it, the more I think that nu-Who has gone all X-Files. When the X-Files started, it was all about the conspiracy, and fans tuned in especially for the mythology episodes, culminating in the Fight the Future movie. After that, the creators lost the plot... literally, and by seasons 8 and 9 they were pulling all manner of nonsense out of their collective fundament. Super-soldiers? Really...

The same thing has happened with nu-Who. When it started, it was one traumatised man in a box, with a hell of a back-story to uncover, and we got interesting tidbits doled out as the series unfolded, the Time War, the return of the Master, Clara Oswald and so on and so forth, and it peaked in The Day of the Doctor. Just as with the X Files, there was a little forward momentum thereafter, and Peter Capaldi's run held the interest, even as the mythology started to get overly convoluted.

But after that, I had stopped caring. The Timeless Child, bi-generation... When you have to destroy Gallifrey... again, you feel like any emotional investment you make in this story is a waste. You're not going to get a decent return.

So the Rani's back; Omega is impending, and RTD is tantalising us with never before known secrets about Gallifrey and the Time Lords. I really don't care. Will the Doctor save the day, will Belinda get home, those questions I'm still invested in, but I haven't felt anything beyond intellectual curiosity in a Doctor Who story since Capaldi. I am still entertained, but not moved.

I think the show needs a reset. Have the Pantheon equivalent of Morpheus show up with an off-button and a reset button for the Doctor to choose from, and the reset sends the Doctor and a regenerated Susan to a 1963 where it all begins again, the creators get to build this story and these characters anew from the ground up.
 
I noticed it myself while watching the episode, but that video reminded me to post it lol

Though it is kinda weird that in a future where earth blew up before humanity had interstellar travel that the company would some how exist

The whole thing about how much of human culture still existed in the universe (and human looking peoples, including sign language and Graham Norton…) needs some level of explanation. Whether it’s a weird web of time repair, an artificial universe we’ve been in, or some kind of weird galactic renaissance affair where whole societies decided to base themselves on the fallen Earth.
But… I think it’s just gonna be some weird unexplained thing we mustn’t think about too hard.

The more I think about it, the more I think that nu-Who has gone all X-Files. When the X-Files started, it was all about the conspiracy, and fans tuned in especially for the mythology episodes, culminating in the Fight the Future movie. After that, the creators lost the plot... literally, and by seasons 8 and 9 they were pulling all manner of nonsense out of their collective fundament. Super-soldiers? Really...

The same thing has happened with nu-Who. When it started, it was one traumatised man in a box, with a hell of a back-story to uncover, and we got interesting tidbits doled out as the series unfolded, the Time War, the return of the Master, Clara Oswald and so on and so forth, and it peaked in The Day of the Doctor. Just as with the X Files, there was a little forward momentum thereafter, and Peter Capaldi's run held the interest, even as the mythology started to get overly convoluted.

But after that, I had stopped caring. The Timeless Child, bi-generation... When you have to destroy Gallifrey... again, you feel like any emotional investment you make in this story is a waste. You're not going to get a decent return.

So the Rani's back; Omega is impending, and RTD is tantalising us with never before known secrets about Gallifrey and the Time Lords. I really don't care. Will the Doctor save the day, will Belinda get home, those questions I'm still invested in, but I haven't felt anything beyond intellectual curiosity in a Doctor Who story since Capaldi. I am still entertained, but not moved.

I think the show needs a reset. Have the Pantheon equivalent of Morpheus show up with an off-button and a reset button for the Doctor to choose from, and the reset sends the Doctor and a regenerated Susan to a 1963 where it all begins again, the creators get to build this story and these characters anew from the ground up.

The show has a built in reset with every change of incarnation or production team. The mistake is usually when questions are being answered without need, or new questions put in that seem artificial. It organically accreted lore in the old days, and as long as there wasn’t too much, or big things were saved for things like anniversaries, it worked. Generally the basic status quo is always returned to, and no one ever blew things up too much. Certainly not to the point of *heavily* contradicting swathes of accreted history and continuity within the show. It was kind of blown out of the water with the Cricket Bat of Chibnall, because it outright contradicted even *recent* things and made elements that underpinned the plots of whole stories and arcs no longer make sense.

And yes… destroying the Time Lords *again* was absolutely a sign that it had gone wonky. The bigger problem that compounded this, is that come the end of that era, the toys weren’t back in the box in a useable fashion. And RTD isn’t fixing them, the way he was no doubt intended to. (Because it’s not just fans who want the show ship-shape and Bristol fashion, it’s the BBC)

I don’t think it *should* have some big reset or reboot — it defeats the point of it being the longest running SF show. What it does need is a few years of very back to basics and *good* — not trying to be massive, not trying to break things — episodes and series. It didn’t make its comeback in 2005 by trying too hard. It did it with an element of dependability, and that continued for a decent number of years, with the odd big moment that captured the public because of its place in culture.

Think of it as a dependable relative, pootling along like a well-liked aunty or uncle. There’s maybe a new partner, maybe a wedding, maybe they’re having a kid… but the big life changing events that thrust them into the limelight of family attention don’t happen every year or every month. If it did, they’d be some kind of nutty narcissist desperate to be *the* thing all the time.
Who needs to spend some time just pootling along and turning up for events without being the event *all the time*. And the same is true of its stories.

Belinda looked really good for an episode or two — then she was sidelined hard. There has been no development of *anyone* and no stories where people just simply enjoyed it, might watch again. It’s so desperate trying to do The Five Doctors or Caves of Androzani every five minutes, that there’s no time for a Visitation.
 
I always say this about everything, but I don't think a fresh start is the answer. Not a completely fresh start anyway. Finding out the Doctor's new retconned backstory is just as awkward whether it's all been reset or not.

Doctor Who's different from the X-Files as that show seemed like it was building up to something. There were going to be answers, the characters were going to learn enough to take action. But then it turned out that it was just going to spin its wheels forever. Doctor Who, on the other hand, is built to go on forever. You don't need to know any backstory to get stories like Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, Midnight etc. and they never feel like padding. The series promises its audience nothing coming down the road but new Doctors, new companions and a bit of a season arc.

The difference between the early seasons of nuWho and now is that the episodes were written with the new audience in mind. The Cybermen were introduced with an origin story, we got four seasons of Daleks before their creator finally showed up, the Master was set up in a similar way to the brand new Torchwood. But when Mrs Flood announces that she's the Rani and she's going to bring back Omega, none of us have been given any reason to give a damn, so the reveal falls flat.
 
I agree that Doctor Who needs to scale down and return to the basics. Even as one of the few defenders of the Timeless Child (although its execution was wonky), I would love to see the show return to its basics and just have The Doctor as a wanderer in time and space with normal companions (human and alien) who come and go as adventues wane.

As much as I love Moffat and most of his era, he's very guilty of creating The Doctor as a grand superhero. Granted, after centuries of travel, The Doctor is going to have a reputation and that's one he should lean into when things get dire. But I miss the days of anonymity in nearly all adventures (aside from reunions with old friends and UNIT) and I wish the show would return to that status.

I realize the show has always been built on an aura of mystery since The Doctor's very first scene and that's why Davies, Moffat, Chibnall, and Davies again have all strived to recreate that mystery again and again. I love a good mystery but sometimes it's good to just have an adventure without any baggage hanging over each of them.

Depending on the revelations of "The Reality War," there will be one mystery that can continue for years to come: The Fugitive Doctor. We still don't fully know who she is or even when she is and I prefer to keep it that way. I love the character and I would love to see Jo Martin pop up occasionally every so often as part of that ongoing mystery.
 
They should have had Mrs.Flood dance with the Doctor *during the interstellar song contest* with all the stuff about the seige of Persephone. A dawning realisation and the Doctor recognising her, not a fourth wall ‘I am the Rani’ which was largely greeted with ‘who?’ By the audience. And then they can do their bigeneration business. If they need it for the story, which I hope is the case, otherwise it’s just ‘we had this bigger actor, so we gave her the job as well as Anita…’

Compare and contrast Missy, who was introduced in a similar way, but it worked better. Because the revelation was reacted to by characters the audience knew, it worked. Even if a viewer was such a newcomer as to have not seen the John Simm Master, the story told you what you needed to know. And there was time and space over the next few seasons to *use* the character. Whereas atm, we don’t even know if there is time to deal with everything left in the air over the last year or two, let alone anything older or newer.
 
I agree that Doctor Who needs to scale down and return to the basics. Even as one of the few defenders of the Timeless Child (although its execution was wonky), I would love to see the show return to its basics and just have The Doctor as a wanderer in time and space with normal companions (human and alien) who come and go as adventues wane.

As much as I love Moffat and most of his era, he's very guilty of creating The Doctor as a grand superhero. Granted, after centuries of travel, The Doctor is going to have a reputation and that's one he should lean into when things get dire. But I miss the days of anonymity in nearly all adventures (aside from reunions with old friends and UNIT) and I wish the show would return to that status.

I realize the show has always been built on an aura of mystery since The Doctor's very first scene and that's why Davies, Moffat, Chibnall, and Davies again have all strived to recreate that mystery again and again. I love a good mystery but sometimes it's good to just have an adventure without any baggage hanging over each of them.

Depending on the revelations of "The Reality War," there will be one mystery that can continue for years to come: The Fugitive Doctor. We still don't fully know who she is or even when she is and I prefer to keep it that way. I love the character and I would love to see Jo Martin pop up occasionally every so often as part of that ongoing mystery.

I don’t think Moffat made the Doctor a Grand Superhero — he just took what was already started, done, but kept unexplored or finished by RTD, then put it centre stage to overtly deconstruct it. To remove it from the board and get things back to basics. The same is true of the Doctor as a Romantic lead. He outright gave River a speech as to why that doesn’t work, having made her the only person it could work with in the then current time-lord free status quo. He then hammered the point by having Clara show us why The Doctor can be the Doctor, but how dangerous it is for someone else to play that role. Season 7 onwards is about removing ‘Time Lord Victorious’ from the board, first by showing us the reach of ‘God Legend’ Doctor, and then having the character outright reject it and remove it. He fixes the regeneration limit, and by the time he’s done the character and the series is essentially back to exactly where it was for 26 years originally.
What was clever about that is that he didn’t ignore the changes, or flip an undo switch, he worked with them and then carefully removed them.

Some people think it’s his ‘fault’ we end up with things like a woman Doctor, or gay companions, but really he just showed how they were possible and left in implicit suggestions for why they are unimportant, or should be treated as something simply *there* and not to be made a Big Thing so as not to alienate part of the audience. Bill was a lesbian, but it was played as normal (the pilot) sometimes for laughs (pope) sometimes lampooning a contemporary obsession (Romans and others really don’t much care). People liked Missy for being Missy, almost a seperate character to the Master altogether, but a character that had their cake and ate it — we got a gender flipped Master, but we also got a character that developed and was changed. (Plus it’s safe to do with the Master, as that character has already been things other than humanoid, other than Time Lord etc. So for lore entrenched fans, it was a safe evolution rather than some radical change.) Then, just to play and examine both sides, we had a male Time Lord regenerate into a woman on screen, only to reveal they had been a Time Lady all along and didn’t like it when they were a man for that incarnation.

It was then all topped off by Capaldi and Moff writing a speech and set of instructions — partly cribbed from older stuff by Dicks and the novels — to make a sort of manifesto for being the Doctor.

Which was immediately ignored by the next team. They may as well have had Jodie eat pears.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think that nu-Who has gone all X-Files. When the X-Files started, it was all about the conspiracy, and fans tuned in especially for the mythology episodes, culminating in the Fight the Future movie. After that, the creators lost the plot... literally, and by seasons 8 and 9 they were pulling all manner of nonsense out of their collective fundament. Super-soldiers? Really...

The same thing has happened with nu-Who. When it started, it was one traumatised man in a box, with a hell of a back-story to uncover, and we got interesting tidbits doled out as the series unfolded, the Time War, the return of the Master, Clara Oswald and so on and so forth, and it peaked in The Day of the Doctor. Just as with the X Files, there was a little forward momentum thereafter, and Peter Capaldi's run held the interest, even as the mythology started to get overly convoluted.

But after that, I had stopped caring. The Timeless Child, bi-generation... When you have to destroy Gallifrey... again, you feel like any emotional investment you make in this story is a waste. You're not going to get a decent return.

So the Rani's back; Omega is impending, and RTD is tantalising us with never before known secrets about Gallifrey and the Time Lords. I really don't care. Will the Doctor save the day, will Belinda get home, those questions I'm still invested in, but I haven't felt anything beyond intellectual curiosity in a Doctor Who story since Capaldi. I am still entertained, but not moved.

I think the show needs a reset. Have the Pantheon equivalent of Morpheus show up with an off-button and a reset button for the Doctor to choose from, and the reset sends the Doctor and a regenerated Susan to a 1963 where it all begins again, the creators get to build this story and these characters anew from the ground up.
I don't want a reset. A continuation is better. But I do want them to stop with all the stuff you mentioned. It's like they can't resist the temptation to outdo what they did before, tinker with fundamental stuff, etc.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top