Chopping and changing jobs - does it make sense?

[Nerys Myk]

Yup.

Dialogue takes primacy because that's created by those who are directly involved in the production of the show, the costume department are focused on their particular element only in many cases.

Conn Officer "O'Brien" was really just a no-name supporting character in EAF. And could have remained that but they they made him O'Brien in AGT. They should have called him by a different name in AGT and really set the fans' heads spinning!!!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Another thing that I've always found interesting is that the "black pip" rank was introduced in Meaney's third episode (as noted above, he plays as an unranked security guard* in his second appearance), but the rank was given to one of the uniformed members of the teaching staff rather than O'Brien.

 

[evilchumlee]

The problem is that we only have experience of O'Brien after he's been in the Fleet for at least a decade and has explicitly had new life experiences that led him to pursue other specialisms beyond what he was originally qualified as (likely either combat arms or Armory), so I would argue that it makes absolute sense that he has acquired a generalist education similar to junior commissioned officers.

That's fair.

Which is entirely common for commissioned officers in modern day, particularly in the US, as they are often taught a broad variety of specialisms as part of their degree courses (which are not mandatory in most Commonwealth Navies for example, who don't spend anywhere near as much time on "college classes" before commissioning, and commission "Command" and "Engineering" Officers separately rather than in combination).

I don't see why that necessarily needs to be any different for an NCO. There's really no particular reason why in an organization like Starfleet, having education requirements even for enlisted members.

The problem with that is that "astronauts" spend only relatively short periods of time "deployed" and the vast majority of the construction, maintenance, administration, security and dozens of other roles that are needed to maintain the ships, crew and mission are done by "non-astronauts" on the ground, may if not the majority of whom are specialists, and many of whom would be considered "enlisted" in the Navy or Air/Space Force and would absolutely not be an option for starships that can spend months or even years away from a starbase.

Yes, there's absolutely a ton of logistics that go into supporting an organization. It would seem to be that on a starship that can spend months or years away from support, you want a highly trained and adaptable crew that could potentially serve in multiple roles...

But it is inconsistent, both internally and with the rest of the material which explicitly retcons O'Brien as being a "Chief" (ie either a Chief Petty Officer or Chief Warrant Officer) during the events where he wore "an Ensign pin" and was explicitly identified as a Chief Petty Officer while wearing "Lieutenant's pins".

But that's what I said... if Starfleet didn't place much relevance on the difference between enlisted or commissioned officer and they just use the same rank insignia for an equivalent rank... it's perfectly consistent.

We don't know the full enlisted Starfleet rank structure. If he's a Chief Petty Officer while wearing the insignia of a Lieutenant, that would suggest to me that in Starfleet, a Chief Petty Officer is analogous to a Lieutenant. If he was referred to as "Chief" while wearing the insignia of an Ensign... there would be a "Chief -insert word-" that is equivalent to the rank of Ensign.

Rather than looking at it from the lens of "That's not how it works", using modern day standards, I prefer to look at it as "That it is what it is." and apply logic to deduce why it is the way it is.

(There was one instance where Riker called O'Brian "Lieutenant", but that's where i'm willing to kinda ignore it... I actually think dialogue can be MORE easily dismissed than visuals because people misspeak. It happens all the time. Riker had, what we might colloquially refer to in the 21st century, as a "brain fart".)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't see why that necessarily needs to be any different for an NCO. There's really no particular reason why in an organization like Starfleet, having education requirements even for enlisted members. It would seem to be that on a starship that can spend months or years away from support, you want a highly trained and adaptable crew that could potentially serve in multiple roles...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you're trying to make here, but IMO suggesting that "Starfleet has no educational requirements" and "wanting a highly trained and adaptable crew" is something of a contradiction.

But that's what I said... if Starfleet didn't place much relevance on the difference between enlisted or commissioned officer and they just use the same rank insignia for an equivalent rank... it's perfectly consistent.

But then you have the problem that the use of the insignia isn't consistent.

If he's a Chief Petty Officer while wearing the insignia of a Lieutenant, that would suggest to me that in Starfleet, a Chief Petty Officer is analogous to a Lieutenant. If he was referred to as "Chief" while wearing the insignia of an Ensign... there would be a "Chief -insert word-" that is equivalent to the rank of Ensign.

Except then you still have the problem that O'Brien's highest specific rank was held when he was wearing the lowest ranking pip (the black pip, Senior Chief Specialist) and after a promotion, so it isn't even logically consistent with itself.

Rather than looking at it from the lens of "That's not how it works", using modern day standards, I prefer to look at it as "That it is what it is." and apply logic to deduce why it is the way it is.

Which would fine, if there was any way to make it consistent, but there isn't.

(There was one instance where Riker called O'Brian "Lieutenant", but that's where i'm willing to kinda ignore it... I actually think dialogue can be MORE easily dismissed than visuals because people misspeak. It happens all the time. Riker had, what we might colloquially refer to in the 21st century, as a "brain fart".)

Versions of that scene in available scripts (as opposed to the aired material or transcripts) lacks the "Lieutenant" bit (and is credited as Transporter Chief in both scripts and final episode, so it seems likely that Frakes misspoke and it wasn't edited out because they hadn't decided he wasn't a lieutenant yet.

Dialogue isn't infallible, but there comes a point when the volume of information one way or another logically requires a particular conclusion, and IMO less than three years of wardrobe information and slightly inconsistent dialogue is trumped by the decades of consistent information that depict him as a senior NCO and crewmen/junior NCOs as trained and capable specialists within their primary areas but who struggle more than a commissioned officer would in a similar situation (Starship Down and to a lesser Voyager's Good Shepherd being probably the best showcases of this.

We also have a few examples of characters who started out as unranked who were promoted to officer ranks: Janice Rand (initially a senior Yeoman, then a Chief, then promoted to commissioned officer), and Darien Wallace (originally appeared as crewman in Operations (All Good Things, Datalore), then qualified as a flight controller and was promoted to ensign (The Hunted), then to Lieutenant (Eye of the Beholder), and the latter is example of a time when it is perfectly acceptable to use visuals over other evidence because it is consistent and represents the bulk of the information about the character.

 

[evilchumlee]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you're trying to make here, but IMO suggesting that "Starfleet has no educational requirements" and "wanting a highly trained and adaptable crew" is something of a contradiction.

If I made an indication that "Starfleet has no educational requirements", I apologize and never meant that. I've generally held that enlisted crew in Starfleet are mostly defined by just... not going to Starfleet Academy. That doesn't mean they aren't educated.

I looked back to see where the confusion came from and yeah I made a weird point there. I was more trying to say that wheras we might expect in say, the US Navy, for highly specialized jobs to be held by NCO's, in Starfleet those highly specialized jobs are given to Officers (who, in turn, tend to ALSO have at least some amount of training in other roles.). NCO's may be a bit more generalist, there to fill in where crew is needed. I did not mean to imply that they would be like, uneducated unwashed masses, and it wouldn't even always be the case. I can see the Science being largely dominated by NCO's who went to all manner of higher learning institutes over Starfleet Academy, but I can ALSO see Security being more NCO heavy, for people who don't necessarily have any grand education beyond the normal, insanely high to begin with, Federation standard of education.

My assertation of wanting an educated and adaptable crew was speaking more to the fact that Starfleet appears to be officer heavy in general.

But then you have the problem that the use of the insignia isn't consistent.

Except then you still have the problem that O'Brien's highest specific rank was held when he was wearing the lowest ranking pip (the black pip, Senior Chief Specialist) and after a promotion, so it isn't even logically consistent with itself.

I don't believe it was ever established the single black pip was a lower ranking insignia. It's a deviation from the usual Starfleet officer progression, but that may simply be where the rank insignia did start to diverse... O'Brian was an Ensign equivalent, has an Ensign pip. He's a Lt. equivalent, he has Lt. pips. A Lt. Commander equivalent... that's starting to get more command-focused, and that may be where the NCO ranks started to become different.

Dialogue isn't infallible, but there comes a point when the volume of information one way or another logically requires a particular conclusion, and IMO less than three years of wardrobe information and slightly inconsistent dialogue is trumped by the decades of consistent information that depict him as a senior NCO and crewmen/junior NCOs as trained and capable specialists within their primary areas but who struggle more than a commissioned officer would in a similar situation (Starship Down and to a lesser Voyager's Good Shepherd being probably the best showcases of this.

I get what you're saying there, but I take issue with removing any context and just going by rank, with a blanket statement that "NCO's struggle more than a commissioned officer in a similar situation." I find the rank to be absolutely and utterly irrelevant to most of those situations. Yes I think it when comes to a very command-specific situation, a higher ranking officer would generally be better suited. But... when push comes to shove, if I had a situation on a ship and I needed either Deanna Troi or Miles O'Brian to take command... I want O'Brian. Likewise, if i'm on Defiant, i'll take O'Brian over Ensign Nog.

We also have a few examples of characters who started out as unranked who were promoted to officer ranks: Janice Rand (initially a senior Yeoman, then a Chief, then promoted to commissioned officer), and Darien Wallace (originally appeared as crewman in Operations (All Good Things, Datalore), then qualified as a flight controller and was promoted to ensign (The Hunted), then to Lieutenant (Eye of the Beholder), and the latter is example of a time when it is perfectly acceptable to use visuals over other evidence because it is consistent and represents the bulk of the information about the character.

No argument there. It's clear it is absolutely possible, I dare say common even, to move from NCO to officer.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't believe it was ever established the single black pip was a lower ranking insignia.

Directly? Probably not, but the black / on the Maquis pins designating a subordinate rank or ranks is probably the most specific indication that this is the case.

Also, it logically follows from the fact that a gold/silver pip and black pip is lower ranked to two gold/silver pips and two gold/silver pips and a black pip is outranked by three gold/silver pips.

I looked back to see where the confusion came from and yeah I made a weird point there. I was more trying to say that wheras we might expect in say, the US Navy, for highly specialized jobs to be held by NCO's,

That can be the case or not, it depends on the difficult and length of training. If a highly specialised job only takes a few months to qualify in (like security or medical technician/assistant) then they'll be a NCO, but if it's something that takes years to get even basically competent at and as much as decades to specialise in, then they're going to be an officer.

NCO's may be a bit more generalist, there to fill in where crew is needed. I did not mean to imply that they would be like, uneducated unwashed masses, and it wouldn't even always be the case.

Except, that's basically what it would amount to, because the whole point of NCOs (and we know that this is the case in Starfleet from The Drumhead and Starship Down among others, is to get personnel to deployable condition quickly and you can train someone to a far more effective standard in a short time if you focus on one subject rather than many.

The other alternative is to deploy mostly undesignated personnel and fully train them "on the job", but while this is still an option for certain collateral duty positions it less popular than it used to be for primary positions and indeed the Royal Navy abandoned the option decades ago.

I can see the Science being largely dominated by NCO's who went to all manner of higher learning institutes over Starfleet Academy,

In line with above, I would expect NCOs to be the assistants and technicians (given that we've literally seen that on-screen) for the most part, however it may be possible for graduates who just want to "do science" to enlist as an NCO for some "practical experience" (indeed this appears to have been the case with Crewman Mortimer Harren from Good Shepherd).

but I can ALSO see Security being more NCO heavy, for people who don't necessarily have any grand education beyond the normal, insanely high to begin with, Federation standard of education.

Given that commissioned Security Officers are often shown as also needed to be qualified as Tactical Officers, Communication Officers and often Bridge/Command Officers, they are probably the best example of a field that would be well-served by specialist NCOs.

I get what you're saying there, but I take issue with removing any context and just going by rank, with a blanket statement that "NCO's struggle more than a commissioned officer in a similar situation." I find the rank to be absolutely and utterly irrelevant to most of those situations.

Okay, to clarify: I would fully expect an NCO-Specialist to be equal to or better than a commissioned officer in their area of expertise given a similar time-in-service, but the inherent downside of specialists is that they are less capable of adapting outside their area of expertise than a less-specialised officer who might have a similar amount of training in their subject, but is also trained in a variety of other subjects.

But... when push comes to shove, if I had a situation on a ship and I needed either Deanna Troi or Miles O'Brian to take command... I want O'Brian.

Depends on the situation. If it's technical and maybe tactical related, I would probably agree, even after she was promoted. OTOH, if it's medical or even certain types of security incident, then I'd go with Deanna.

Likewise, if i'm on Defiant, i'll take O'Brian over Ensign Nog.

Agreed, because even if Nog is the "senior officer", he has only a fraction of the experience that O'Brien has, and mostly in the same things.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Back when it was just TNG and DS9 I came up with a black pip scheme for NCOs and Enlisted.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I've had a couple of different thoughts on enlisted rank insignia over the years, but typically end up with one that slightly more restricted in terms of insignia than the American system and Starfleet systems derived from it.

For instance, the seven ranks available via NCO patch insignia is plenty and doesn't need the two extra "training" ranks that adding / options provides as they would be merely "pay-grades" not indicative of any meaningful additional authority.

An even more restricted option that I've also considered is that there are only three ranks (no pip with all silver badge (Crewman), black pip with all silver badge (Petty Officer/Specialist) and black pip with silver and gold badge (Chief Petty Officer/Specialist)).

 

[Whizkid]

I hate Geordi la forge or whatever. Effing stupid engineer. And to think he's THE engineer!

In TNG Geordi has unacceptably the sleaziest of roles.

Thank Goodness for Picard.

 

[evilchumlee]

Directly? Probably not, but the black / on the Maquis pins designating a subordinate rank or ranks is probably the most specific indication that this is the case.

Also, it logically follows from the fact that a gold/silver pip and black pip is lower ranked to two gold/silver pips and two gold/silver pips and a black pip is outranked by three gold/silver pips.

The Maquis/Provisional ranks are an odd situation in their own right. They essentially just follow the normal commissioned ranks, just as slashes instead of pips... but ALSO just include a single black stripe as apparently a catch as "Provisional Enlisted", which like, kind of doesn't even make sense. Not really sure why the enlisted Maquis crew would be "Provisional" enlisted. Just... be enlisted, although I suppose if Starfleet did have standards for enlistment, the Maquis crew may not have actually qualified... I also always got the vibe that those "Provisional" ranks aren't a real Starfleet thing, and something Janeway just kind of made up on the fly given the situation.

That being said, I totally get what you're saying. I really try to, whenever possible, not simply reject what was seen on screen. I understand your logic, and it absolutely makes sense, but not with what we saw on screen with O'Brian.

He started with out a single gold pip. He then two gold pips. And then after we know he received a promotion, had a single black pip. We also know he is not a commissioned officer.

So. That rank insignia progression does not follow the logic of the commissioned officer rank system. But... O'Brian is not a commissioned officer. So given that i'm taking what is seen on screen as fact, the single black gold pip (which does not exist in the commissioned officer rank structure... black pips exist, but not single), that in the NCO structure, a single black pip is superior to two gold pips.

WHY? I don't know. I'll stick by my speculation that Starfleet may have felt the need for more distinction between rank insignia starting at that level. From Ensign/Equivalent to Lieutenant/Equivalent, it may be seen as largely irrelevant if one is commissioned or not. The ranks may stop being as equivalent at commissioned Lt. Commander/Whatever the NCO rank is. The only real thing I have to go on there is how big of a deal becoming a full Commander is made out to be.

If, as I suspect in the Starfleet system, the greatest difference in the actual rank/role structure between NCOs and Officers would be command responsibility, then it does make an amount of sense to really start to pay attention at Lt. Commander.

So the black pip may have been something of an oddity on purpose, to draw attention.

Except, that's basically what it would amount to, because the whole point of NCOs (and we know that this is the case in Starfleet from The Drumhead and Starship Down among others, is to get personnel to deployable condition quickly and you can train someone to a far more effective standard in a short time if you focus on one subject rather than many.

The other alternative is to deploy mostly undesignated personnel and fully train them "on the job", but while this is still an option for certain collateral duty positions it less popular than it used to be for primary positions and indeed the Royal Navy abandoned the option decades ago.

There is a third alternative; that Starfleet absolutely has a minimum education standard for ANY role. Random Joe with a Federation G.E.D. equivalent wouldn't even be able to enlist in Starfleet. In the spirit of Roddenberry's vision, but slightly updated, everyone in Starfleet is something of a "qualified astronaut", although that doesn't quite mean what it would mean today. I could absolutely see at least a Federation equivalent of a Bachelors degree necessary to even enlist. Its primary mission, after all, is science and exploration... NOT military matters.

Okay, to clarify: I would fully expect an NCO-Specialist to be equal to or better than a commissioned officer in their area of expertise given a similar time-in-service, but the inherent downside of specialists is that they are less capable of adapting outside their area of expertise than a less-specialised officer who might have a similar amount of training in their subject, but is also trained in a variety of other subjects.

Depends on the situation. If it's technical and maybe tactical related, I would probably agree, even after she was promoted. OTOH, if it's medical or even certain types of security incident, then I'd go with Deanna.

Agreed, because even if Nog is the "senior officer", he has only a fraction of the experience that O'Brien has, and mostly in the same things.

That's all fair.

I keep getting stuck on the notion that "Every NCO is outranked by even the lowest Officer". That's stupid and overly, unnecessarily rigid, especially in an environment that demands flexibility and adaptability. "The Senior Officer" is not always the best choice for a given situation.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

So the black pip may have been something of an oddity on purpose, to draw attention.

Except that's a story element, and that's not wardrobe department's role. The role of the writers and producers who make clear that there was no plan until O'Brien was identified as Chief Petty Officer and so after that point wardrobe should have fixed their mistake, which they eventually did in Realm of Fear.

There is a third alternative; that Starfleet absolutely has a minimum education standard for ANY role.

IMO, Starfleet is more concerned with skill potential than prior education.

Random Joe with a Federation G.E.D. equivalent wouldn't even be able to enlist in Starfleet.

Maybe not a G.E.D. alone as it only covers a fairly small range of skills, but we know from canon that a high school program can be pretty advanced and comprehensive.

In the spirit of Roddenberry's vision, but slightly updated, everyone in Starfleet is something of a "qualified astronaut", although that doesn't quite mean what it would mean today. I could absolutely see at least a Federation equivalent of a Bachelors degree necessary to even enlist. Its primary mission, after all, is science and exploration... NOT military matters.

Given that Starfleet has many roles that wouldn't require that level of training, that seems very much contrary to egalitarian, inclusive philosophy that the Federation espouses and outright contradicts what we've seen on-screen multiple times.

I keep getting stuck on the notion that "Every NCO is outranked by even the lowest Officer". That's stupid and overly, unnecessarily rigid, especially in an environment that demands flexibility and adaptability.

No, it isn't.

Because a big part of the extra years of training that commissioned officers get as part of their degree (which let's remember enlisted personnel are permitted transition to if they demonstrate the skills and interest to do so) is training in managing multi-skilled teams and scenarios requiring their use and managing large teams in general.

"The Senior Officer" is not always the best choice for a given situation.

Given that they are almost certainly legally responsible for any situation (particularly in all situations where the senior officer is qualified to be so*), then it makes sense that the final decision, is theirs, though any competent officer would take the advice of their available specialists**.


* Deanna in Disaster is a legally dubious exception, not the rule.
** Indeed not doing this is generally regarded as a sign that an officer is not capable, and can often be a "career killer" particularly for junior officers).

 

[evilchumlee]

Except that's a story element, and that's not wardrobe department's role. The role of the writers and producers who make clear that there was no plan until O'Brien was identified as Chief Petty Officer and so after that point wardrobe should have fixed their mistake, which they eventually did in Realm of Fear.

I get the Doylist perspective. I'm speaking entirely Watsonian here.

IMO, Starfleet is more concerned with skill potential than prior education.

Maybe not a G.E.D. alone as it only covers a fairly small range of skills, but we know from canon that a high school program can be pretty advanced and comprehensive.

Yes on both of those points, I get that. But Starfleet definitely does value education, and at least for some programs, the competition is FIERCE (like whatever the hell the Academy was putting Wesley Crusher through early on...)

We do also definitely know that education in Trek is advanced. Yes, people coming out of high school are incredibly well educated. So really, it may more of a situation of "Random Joe with a GED can't enlist", and more that... basically everyone has an impeccably high level of education even without pursuing higher education.

THAT feels like Star Trek.

Given that Starfleet has many roles that wouldn't require that level of training, that seems very much contrary to egalitarian, inclusive philosophy that the Federation espouses and outright contradicts what we've seen on-screen multiple times.

I don't think it contradicts the philosophy or anything onscreen. The Federation isn't 2025 United States. Anyone can receive a top-notch education if they so desire. There's quite literally nothing standing in their way.

I do think there is a matter of perspective here. I know from this and previous discussion from you, you're coming at it from a very military-centric perspective. I tend to look at it from more of an academic perspective (and mixed with a more business-mind, just because of my personal experience), even if a particular role may not REQUIRE certain education or training, in an academic or business type environment, they are often desired. With Starfleet being primarily focused on scientific endeavors, it really doesn't matter what role one might be pursuing, they're still going want to their people to be high educated.

No, it isn't.

Because a big part of the extra years of training that commissioned officers get as part of their degree (which let's remember enlisted personnel are permitted transition to if they demonstrate the skills and interest to do so) is training in managing multi-skilled teams and scenarios requiring their use and managing large teams in general.

So the green Ensign fresh out of the Academy is more qualified than the 30 year veteran Chief-whatever?

It's the absolutes that get me. Sure, in general, a commissioned officer may be more suited to managing a team. Absolutely. It's the absolute of a commissioned officer is always more suited to such that is just flat out incorrect.

Given that they are almost certainly legally responsible for any situation (particularly in all situations where the senior officer is qualified to be so*), then it makes sense that the final decision, is theirs, though any competent officer would take the advice of their available specialists**.

There's also no particular reason for that to be enshrined in law. It would make more sense to me that such law would be better served by ensuring the most experienced person make the final decision. Sure, the only real tangible measure of that would be rank, which is also why I think it's inefficient and foolhardy that ALL officers outrank ALL NCO's. At the very least, some sort of tier makes much more sense. Yeah, an Ensign is likely better suited than a Crewman I, but a Master Chief Petty Officer is likely better suited than the Ensign.

I take the biggest issue with that last part. Any competent officer should take the advice. That's great, but in a crisis situation, leaving it up to hoping a less experience officer is competent enough and willing to take the advice of the more experience people available is absolutely boneheaded, when you could just... have the more experienced person take control.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I get the Doylist perspective. I'm speaking entirely Watsonian here.

No, you're not. Because from a Doylist perspective O'Brien was always a "Chief" (ie Chief Petty Officer/Specialist/Warrant Officer), not a commissioned officer.

Yes on both of those points, I get that. But Starfleet definitely does value education, and at least for some programs, the competition is FIERCE (like whatever the hell the Academy was putting Wesley Crusher through early on...)

Most likely some sort of fast track program, possibly Command School.

We do also definitely know that education in Trek is advanced. Yes, people coming out of high school are incredibly well educated. So really, it may more of a situation of "Random Joe with a GED can't enlist", and more that... basically everyone has an impeccably high level of education even without pursuing higher education.

I would agree with that.

I don't think it contradicts the philosophy or anything onscreen. The Federation isn't 2025 United States. Anyone can receive a top-notch education if they so desire.

Not really, there are any number of reasons why someone might either chose not to or be unable to complete a higher education degree program as a teenager/young adult and requiring everyone who wants to serve to do so before they are allowed to even join the organisation is significant elitest and exclusionary than the military system that it was supposed to be replacing because at least that allowed most people to contribute whereas the "all graduates" system likely excludes at least a third of the population entirely.

With Starfleet being primarily focused on scientific endeavors, it really doesn't matter what role one might be pursuing, they're still going want to their people to be high educated.

There's a difference between highly trained and highly educated, Starfleet certainly universally requires the former, but I'm not convinced that they are going to exclude entirely people who are not the latter as a teen/young adult.

So the green Ensign fresh out of the Academy is more qualified than the 30 year veteran Chief-whatever?

That depends, but I'd point out that the vast majority of the time the reason why the 30-year veteran is still a "Chief" not a commissoned officer is that they either refused the training and status (and therefore shouldn't be forced to take the responsiblity) or failed to meet the required standards and therefore didn't get promoted.

It's the absolutes that get me. Sure, in general, a commissioned officer may be more suited to managing a team. Absolutely. It's the absolute of a commissioned officer is always more suited to such that is just flat out incorrect.

See above.

There's also no particular reason for that to be enshrined in law.

Well, it is IRL, and the fact that starship captains automatically face a board of inquiry and possible court martial over the loss of their ship even with zero casualties strongly suggests a similar principle of accountability.

It would make more sense to me that such law would be better served by ensuring the most experienced person make the final decision. Sure, the only real tangible measure of that would be rank, which is also why I think it's inefficient and foolhardy that ALL officers outrank ALL NCO's.

In a system where there are social/economic challenges to becoming a commissioned officer I might agree, but given that the only the barriers in Starfleet are meritocratic and personal choice, I disagree.

No-one who hasn't proved their ability to manage/command by an objective, measurable standard should automatically outrank those who have proved that they have said ability.

I take the biggest issue with that last part. Any competent officer should take the advice. That's great, but in a crisis situation, leaving it up to hoping a less experience officer is competent enough and willing to take the advice of the more experience people available is absolutely boneheaded, when you could just... have the more experienced person take control.

I would absolute support disciplinary action for any officer who failed to take advice from a specialist in a crisis situation (and in reverse commend any officer who sought advice or even accepted orders from such in that situation) which predictably contributed to death, injury or significant loss of resources, but as noted above, the presumptive position should always be that seniority is determined by training not tenure.

 

[evilchumlee]

No, you're not. Because from a Doylist perspective O'Brien was always a "Chief" (ie Chief Petty Officer/Specialist/Warrant Officer), not a commissioned officer.

I'm not really following that bit.

I never at any point suggested O'Brian was a commissioned officer. I was just dismissing out-of-universe context for things.

Most likely some sort of fast track program, possibly Command School.

I've always assumed something like that was the case. It's wasn't that getting accepted into the Academy is some extremely harrowing prospect, it's getting to whatever specific program Wesley Crusher was gunning for.

Not really, there are any number of reasons why someone might either chose not to or be unable to complete a higher education degree program as a teenager/young adult and requiring everyone who wants to serve to do so before they are allowed to even join the organisation is significant elitest and exclusionary than the military system that it was supposed to be replacing because at least that allowed most people to contribute whereas the "all graduates" system likely excludes at least a third of the population entirely.

Not sure where your data about Federation higher education numbers are coming from there. Why would we think a third of the Federation population has not pursued higher education?

I really don't think having educational standards for a scientific organization is "elitist and exclusionary", especially when education is available to all. If someone wants to join Starfleet, they absolutely can. If they choose to not complete the educational requirements, that's entirely on them, and the Federation offers a multitude of ways that one can contribute that are not Starfleet.

There's a difference between highly trained and highly educated, Starfleet certainly universally requires the former, but I'm not convinced that they are going to exclude entirely people who are not the latter as a teen/young adult.

I don't believe they would "exclude" them so much as inspire them to become even more educated.

That depends, but I'd point out that the vast majority of the time the reason why the 30-year veteran is still a "Chief" not a commissoned officer is that they either refused the training and status (and therefore shouldn't be forced to take the responsiblity) or failed to meet the required standards and therefore didn't get promoted.

That is a fair point that I will say I honestly had not considered, ESPECIALLY given that we know it doesn't appear uncommon for an NCO to become an officer in Starfleet.

I would still hesitate to agree on such a situation being an automatic, "always in every circumstance" situation.

Well, it is IRL, and the fact that starship captains automatically face a board of inquiry and possible court martial over the loss of their ship even with zero casualties strongly suggests a similar principle of accountability.

I agree that in general, yes. Especially a starship captain is responsible for their ship. Absolutely.

There should be an amount of flexibility in an emergency situation that helps to allow the best person available to take control, not just "any officer automatically better".

In a system where there are social/economic challenges to becoming a commissioned officer I might agree, but given that the only the barriers in Starfleet are meritocratic and personal choice, I disagree.

No-one who hasn't proved their ability to manage/command by an objective, measurable standard should automatically outrank those who have proved that they have said ability.

Has a green fresh out of the Academy Ensign proved their ability to manage/command by objective over an NCO? I'll use the O'Brian/Nog example again. O'Brian has... objectively proven to be able to lead a team. He is the Chief of Operations for a Federation starbase, commanding an engineering crew. Nog... has precisely zero command experience. O'Brian, by every objective, measurable standard has proven that ability over Nog. But... in the rigid system, Nog outranks him.

I would absolute support disciplinary action for any officer who failed to take advice from a specialist in a crisis situation (and in reverse commend any officer who sought advice or even accepted orders from such in that situation) which predictably contributed to death, injury or significant loss of resources, but as noted above, the presumptive position should always be that seniority is determined by training not tenure.

The dead don't really care if the decision making received "disciplinary action".

I would rather the person most suited to take command of the situation take command, not the... well... elitist and exclusionary "officers only" club.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I really don't think having educational standards for a scientific organization is "elitist and exclusionary",

Well, it is the vast majority of Starfleet personnel are not dedicated scientists and even then the training required to be a useful assistant isn't the same as the lead researcher.

I really don't think having educational standards for a scientific organization is "elitist and exclusionary", especially when education is available to all.

Access to education might be available to all, but there are plenty of reasons that someone might not be able to complete a degree as a young person but still be able to contribute in a more specialised way as an assistant and even in many cases get a degree later.

If someone wants to join Starfleet, they absolutely can. If they choose to not complete the educational requirements, that's entirely on them, and the Federation offers a multitude of ways that one can contribute that are not Starfleet.

What's the benefit to the Federation of handicapping their recruitment and training programs by artifically imposing academic requirements for entry that aren't even remotely necessary for them to contribute.

I don't believe they would "exclude" them so much as inspire them to become even more educated.

Any unnecessary barrier is by definition exclusionary.

I agree that in general, yes. Especially a starship captain is responsible for their ship. Absolutely.

Good.

There should be an amount of flexibility in an emergency situation that helps to allow the best person available to take control, not just "any officer automatically better".

IMO, the best person to decide who gets to be in charge in an emergency situation is the person who has made the commitment to be responsible for that decision, not the person that's been in the job longest if they haven't made that commitment.

Has a green fresh out of the Academy Ensign proved their ability to manage/command by objective over an NCO?

They have made the commitment, ergo they will be the ones held responsible, so yes.

I'll use the O'Brian/Nog example again. O'Brian has... objectively proven to be able to lead a team.

O'Brien is a bad example as he has almost certainly done the training to become an officer given his broad skillset, but chose not to.

He is the Chief of Operations for a Federation starbase, commanding an engineering crew. Nog... has precisely zero command experience.

And O'Brien also has precisely zero command experience either and has apparently made it quite clear that he has no interest in taking on that role.

Now, would I trust O'Brien's technical advise over Nog's... absolutely and it's pretty clear that Nog does too.

O'Brian, by every objective, measurable standard has proven that ability over Nog. But... in the rigid system, Nog outranks him.

Because Nog has made the commitment to be responsible for "command", O'Brien hasn't.

The dead don't really care if the decision making received "disciplinary action".

I would rather the person most suited to take command of the situation take command, not the... well... elitist and exclusionary "officers only" club.

Uh... how is the "officers only" club exclusionary if literally everyone (whether a specialist or officer) has to go to the Academy or another university in order to so much as stack crates in a cargo bay?

OTOH, a system that supplies targeted training to a variety of levels of capability and assigns authority to people based on the commitments that they make, is the definition of inclusive.

 

[flandry84]

Chief O’Brien had a pretty scarifying experience during the Cardassian war.Perhaps he was a guy who originally intended to stay for a limited time in the service but because of his experiences decided to stay on.

Given the rotating chief engineer situation during season 1 I personally think that O’B as a veteran,was more or less a “floating” player until the shakedown period was over.

 

[Farscape One]

O'Brien did say to 'Boone' in "TRIBUNAL" that he stayed in Starfleet because of Setlik III.