What Changes Would You Have For "Elaan of Troyius"?

[cooleddie74]

^

Again...an opinion. Nothing but.

How is that an opinion?

"How would you know a Romulan ship?"
"It's painted like a giant bird of prey."

Basic logic 101: If you see a ship painted like a bird of prey, it's a Romulan. That's not theory or opinion. It's explicit in the dialogue.

Yes. Romulan ships from the mid-22nd century era and TOS had them painted on them. Agreed. But Lt. Stiles' lines say nothing about Klingons never having ships with similar names, however. And ENT goes on to show that the Empire did have ships called BoP's in the 22nd century.

 

[Gil T.Azell]

The sound was just shitty, it didn't match with the video at times and reminded me of the out of sync
Monster movies from Japan.
and the Klingon ship seemed to be following to close.

 

[A beaker full of death]

^

Again...an opinion. Nothing but.

How is that an opinion?

"How would you know a Romulan ship?"
"It's painted like a giant bird of prey."

Basic logic 101: If you see a ship painted like a bird of prey, it's a Romulan. That's not theory or opinion. It's explicit in the dialogue.

Yes. Romulan ships from the mid-22nd century era and TOS had them painted on them. Agreed. But Lt. Stiles' lines say nothing about Klingons never having ships with similar names, however. And ENT goes on to show that the Empire did have ships called BoP's in the 22nd century.

That's hardly the only thing ENT got wrong.

 

[cooleddie74]

How is that an opinion?

"How would you know a Romulan ship?"
"It's painted like a giant bird of prey."

Basic logic 101: If you see a ship painted like a bird of prey, it's a Romulan. That's not theory or opinion. It's explicit in the dialogue.

Yes. Romulan ships from the mid-22nd century era and TOS had them painted on them. Agreed. But Lt. Stiles' lines say nothing about Klingons never having ships with similar names, however. And ENT goes on to show that the Empire did have ships called BoP's in the 22nd century.

That's hardly the only thing ENT got wrong.

But it's not really your place to call it "wrong." The producers of the franchise and the studio make that call, and if they want Klingons having crude Birds-of-Prey 100 years before Kirk's five-year mission and they show them on-screen then it becomes canon...unless that timeline is erradicated by a change that alters Klingon technology, which it wasn't. The Temporal Cold War didn't do that.

 

[Forbin]

Enterprise was an alternate timeline created by the Borg encounter in First Contact, and didn't exist in the history of TOS, YNG, DS9 and V'ger.

 

[Kryton]

CBS Digital made the Romulan D7s with a Bird of Prey painted on their underbelly for The Enterprise Incident.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

Though I agree with cooleddie74 that the Producers can do what they want, it doesn't mean we have to like it. Half the reason forums like this exist is so we can rant and rave about their failings/weaknesses. Would these forums be half as interesting if the production team somehow managed to please all of us all of the time?

For my two cents, I don't like the concept of a "Klingon Bird of Prey", every time I see that ship I'm thinking "why aren't you Romulan?" But I have to grudgingly accept it as canon.

As for Enterprise, I've decided to write all of Enterprises' canon contradictions and gray areas off to the Temporal Cold War. I tell myself that Cold War factions we didn't know about influenced have been influencing 22nd century shipbuilding techniques for Earth, The Klingons, and the Romulans and thus they invented cloaking devices, birds of prey and akiraprises decades before they would have in the timeline observed in the first four series.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Enterprise was an alternate timeline created by the Borg encounter in First Contact, and didn't exist in the history of TOS, YNG, DS9 and V'ger.

Yes, it did. Firstly, Paramount hasn't said it didn't, and so therefore, it did.

Also: Have you forgotten that Seven of Nine specifically referenced FC in an episode of Voyager?

 

[Michael]

Enterprise was an alternate timeline created by the Borg encounter in First Contact, and didn't exist in the history of TOS, YNG, DS9 and V'ger.

Yes, it did. Firstly, Paramount hasn't said it didn't, and so therefore, it did.

Also: Have you forgotten that Seven of Nine specifically referenced FC in an episode of Voyager?

 

[Cyrus]

The sound was just shitty, it didn't match with the video at times and reminded me of the out of sync Monster movies from Japan.

If sound and video were out of sync, then it must have been from your local station or cable/satellite company. It's not an issue with the remastered episode.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Yes. Romulan ships from the mid-22nd century era and TOS had them painted on them. Agreed. But Lt. Stiles' lines say nothing about Klingons never having ships with similar names, however. And ENT goes on to show that the Empire did have ships called BoP's in the 22nd century.

That's hardly the only thing ENT got wrong.

But it's not really your place to call it "wrong." The producers of the franchise and the studio make that call...

As I've said before, just because I own a Picasso doesn't mean I can shit in a hat and call it a Picasso. Similarly, if I acquire the rights to, say, the Andy Griffith show, it doesn't mean that Barney was gay just because I decide he was.
Star Trek was a complete, entirely integrated body of work as of its going off the air in 1969.
As for "canon," a term I abhor, it encompasses not only what was literally in the script but also all the implications of those written words, as well as what was brought to the productions by the actors, directors and crews. In this particular case, I don't even have to go that far. The Bird of Prey issue is explicitly answered in that episode, and just because Bermaga decide that 2+2=5 doesn't make it so.

Look at another thread here - about whether Kirk ever banged Rand while she was under his command. Bermaga might say he did. That doesn't change the implication (and direct meaning) of every line of dialogue and scene that touches upon the issue.
Legal rights to the names and images do not give those rights-holders moral or artistic authority to speak to canon. All it does is give them the right to make money.

 

[Forbin]

If Michael Jackson had rerecorded the instruments on all the Beatles' songs using more "modern and better" digital sounds while he owned the rights (does he still own them?), and claimed they were now the only "canon" Beatles songs, what would be the music world's reaction?

 

[Outpost4]

Forbin, I'll give you a better example. Many artists go back and re-record their earlier hits using better technology and musicians. I usually hate these versions. OK, hate may be too strong a word, but the earlier ones are the versions I remember and I consider the true ones.

While I don't join beaker in disliking the term "canon", what does work for me is varying degrees of canonosity (now there's a word!). Star Trek is canon. As re-interpreted by TNG, it is one step removed from canon. It doesn't make it any less true, but it is accurate only to itself. The movies also have less canonness. The Klingons in ST2 that act like Romulans? Sorry. I like my Klingons conniving, scheming bastards, like they were in Star Trek, not a warrior race. Does that make them wrong? No. Just less canonical. They are accurate to the Klingons of the movies and later series.

I consider Star Trek canon and everything else a game of telephone. The meaning gets changed and modified with each iteration. Does that mean I didn't like Enterprise and its Romulans? No. I enjoyed them. They just didn't contribute to my understanding of Star Trek's Romulans. Is the Remastered Star Trek wrong? No, just less credible.

Johnny Cash can rerecord Ring of Fire. I may even sing along. It doesn't mean I have to change my appreciation for his original Sun recording, though. And if I was a musician, that is the version I'd learn.

 

[Michael]

Johnny Cash can rerecord Ring of Fire. I may even sing along. It doesn't mean I have to change my appreciation for his original Sun recording, though. And if I was a musician, that is the version I'd learn.

Sorry, don't want to burst any bubbles, but the man is dead.

 

[Outpost4]

Shit! When did that happen?



(He did rerecord the song with Rick Ruben, I believe.)

 

[Michael]

Shit! When did that happen?

About four years ago actually.

 

[cooleddie74]

I'm just glad...any problems with the final Remastering aside...that we're finally getting close up shots of D7 cruisers. I had hoped for one or two quick glimpses in episodes like "Errand of Mercy" but they always showed the attacking squadron of ships off in the distance.

 

[Forbin]

Johnny Cash (or another artist) can rerecord a song they wrote and recorded themselves - fine, that's "a new version" or something. They wrote it, they own it.

CBS studios can't buy the rights to that song, redub the backup track with PC music program, and tell me that's the "canon" version of Johnny Cash's song.

 

[Hofner]

If Michael Jackson had rerecorded the instruments on all the Beatles' songs using more "modern and better" digital sounds while he owned the rights (does he still own them?), and claimed they were now the only "canon" Beatles songs, what would be the music world's reaction?

Heh, as a huge Beatles fan I've thought of something like what you said. Reminds me of the debate of the Beatles' mono version of songs versus the stereo. The definittive versions were the mono up until 1966 or 1967. But some people think the early thowaway stereo mixes are superior despite their disconcerting habit of having the vocals panned all the way to one side and the instruments all the way to the other side of the stereo mix.

So I can see some people embracing a theoretical Michael Jackson rerecording of the Beatles' music as being more "true" Beatles than the originals.

Robert

 

[NCC-2725]

You mean, besides erasing every master tape, burning all remaining original 35mm prints, going house to house with Shredder Squads to destroy every videotape, dvd or hard drive which might contain a copy, and sending FTL ships out in every direction equipped with planet cracker bombs to destroy any civilization capable of receiving the original TV broadcasts?